Superior Academy Upgrades

[Roman]

I have been playing the Academy recently and have noticed that I find myself using the original upgrades for Academy creatures almost in every case, except for the Titans.

Tier 1: I always go with Master Gremlins - the ability to repair my Golems or Titans is too useful
Tier 2: Obsidian Gargoyles are better for me, since I often use them to protect my shooters and extra vulnerabilities would be counterproductive in that regard
Tier 3: Here I am not entirely sure, since I am not clear about how exactly Magnetism/Enchanted Armor functions (on the one hand the Magnetic Golem absorbs damage on the other it heals - if absorption does not mean taking damage, than the Magnetic Golem is pretty good)
Tier 4: Archmage is slightly better, but this is close enough to be circumstantial - I do sometimes take the Battle Mage
Tier 5: I usually take Djin Sultans for the curses, especially slow, but the wheel of fortune is also a good ability
Tier 6: Rakshasa Raja has the no retaliation ability and thus wins out handily over Rakshasa Kshatra
Tier 7: Very little difference, but I generally take Storm Titans

What do you guys think?

[Asheera]

Tier 1: I always go with Master Gremlins - the ability to repair my Golems or Titans is too useful

You can't repair the Titans AFAIK

[Roman]

Tier 1: I always go with Master Gremlins - the ability to repair my Golems or Titans is too useful

You can't repair the Titans AFAIK

My bad! Old modes of thinking die hard...

[Elvin]

Apparently you don't know the power of sabotage. Regardless they are better to choose at least in creeping.

Elemental Gargoyles are awesome with a destructive build and therefore a matter of choice.

Magnetic Golems only get healed but on the other hand they are weaker in battle and cannot be buffed. Again a matter of choice.

Archmages are good but you can't protect them and keep shooting like a regular ranged unit.

Viziers are a lot more predictable and also a perfect counter for destructive builds or cotn abusers.

Rakshasa Kshatra are easily the best though there are a few cases where rajas are still good

[parcaleste]

... Magnetic Golems only get healed but on the other hand they are weaker in battle and cannot be buffed...

By the Artificier you mean? Well now it's said this one is fixed in 3.1

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

... Magnetic Golems only get healed but on the other hand they are weaker in battle and cannot be buffed...

By the Artificier you mean? Well now it's said this one is fixed in 3.1

He means you can't buff them with spells.

Yeah, I mostly stick with the original upgrades. I had hoped at some point the Djiin would be imporved but I gues that ain't happening. The spells of the Sultans should be improved and the luck boost of the alternate should be improved. They have too few hipoints and defense as well for a level 5 creature.

I seldom find use for the elemental gargoyles since you have to sacrifice them to make use of their ability. Maybe in a final battle if you have a destruction magic build.

Battle mages gave up a lot to be able to shoot without hurting adjacent units. Their ability should at least be changed to make it not hurt any allies on the battlefield.

Rakshasa Raja is my preference for their staying power ordinarily. Wizards are not exactly going to give their creatures big attack boosts to make them mighty creatures.

As you said there is not much difference between Titans and the alternate. Oh, and they have too few hit points. They are easily blocked. Often not even getting off a single shot so their shooting ability is not too much of an advantage. The battlefield is too small. Too many creatures cross it in one turn. When blackies attack the titans a large portion of the stack is gone before they get a chance to move.

[Metathron]

Check out the Academy creature choices thread

Tier 1: I always go with Master Gremlins - the ability to repair my Golems or Titans is too useful

Golems? What's that? Oh, right, that academy creature I use 2% of the time and whose building I sometimes don't even build.

To me the saboteurs are FAR FAR SUPERIOR than the master gremlins. Better initiative (+1), attack (+3) and defense (+1).

The master gremlins IMO are in need of some kind of boost for me to even consider using them.

I seldom find use for the elemental gargoyles since you have to sacrifice them to make use of their ability.

What else are the gargoyles there for if not to be sacrificed? BTW, using them as blockers also counts as (potentially) sacrificing them in my book.

But both upgrades are fine, but far from being crucial.

Archmages are much better from early to mid game when you can afford to split them (no titans/rakshasas/whatever to take up your space). If in one stack, their spell damage is pathetic. Later on, the battle magi are superior, although I agree with GOW that it would be nice for them not to hit ANY of their allied troops, regardless of their position.

I had hoped at some point the Djiin would be imporved but I gues that ain't happening. The spells of the Sultans should be improved and the luck boost of the alternate should be improved. They have too few hipoints and defense as well for a level 5 creature.

I don't think that is altogether fair to the djinns. You get 8 of them per week, whereas you get only 6 of most other level 5s. They are one of only two level 5 units with a movement of 8, meaning they can cross the battlefield in one turn and engage/distract the enemy immediately. They have a high resistance to damaging spells, which augments their physical weakness. And when they hit, they don't do a bad amount of damage, either, but maybe that's just my impression.

Both rakshasas are good, but I prefer the kshatras for being the more offensive of the pair, what with their fearsome "whirlwind" ability. I also love casting vampirism on them in which case they become my most important troop on the battlefield.

As for the titans, I think I've scoffed enough at the lack of difference between the two upgrades, so I won't go into it again.

P. S. : Magnetic golems can't be buffed? That's first I hear of it. But then I don't particularly care either way.

[Jolly Joker]

That doesn't sound like Heroic play. No Golems, Archmages in early game.... This last one I don't even envision under hard.

Since the H5 Academy is the first town of this type I REALLY like, I play Academy quite often. There are alot of different strategies possible, using only the first 3 tiers. The cheapest possible solution is a combination of (basic) Golems and Master Gremlins for creeping in connection with MotW and a destructive spell, preferably Eldritch Arrow or Ice Bolt. Fire Trap works as well, as soon as you have Summoning Magic, but obviously you need a couple of levels to make that one really effective. With this scenario you need Gargoyles only for guarding the Grems in the first couple turns. Because of the MR of Golems this allows clearing Druids as well, leaving the work for the hero. Of course upgraded Golems are better, but sometimes you don't need that on a map, so that money is sometimes better saved.

Another possible solution is going for the saboteurs (which have a higher damage output) and upgraded Gargoyles. These are the same builds, since instead of Blacksmith/Golems you can go for Garg/upg. Garg. This solution offers some interesting possibilities as well. Quite obviously the Elemental Gargs, whether used offensively in single stacks or not, will increase the hero damage output drastically, as soon as the opposing units reach the cordon around the Gremlins. This works well against the usual lot of creepers indluding Vampires and the like, however, the Obdisians are tougher and allow attacks on Druids and casters, so in reality a split of Gargoyles suggests itself. Two thirds Obsidians and one third Elementals usually offer enough tactical variety here. Needless to say, that flying a Garg adjacent to an enemy stack and then blast him with the hero will NOT waste the Gargoyle inevitably: the additional damage may just be enough to damage the stack beyong killing capacity, and even it it is killed it will usually delay the opposing stacks.

The magnet Golems are of course one hell of a unit to use with area damage spells... *cough, cough* Of course Stone Spikes is an area spell as well.

I have to say that I really like the alternative Academy upgrades, since they offer real alternatives, especially for the early game. For the level 6 both are powerhouses. I like the Dash special of the Radja, since it allows to heap spells upon them; Haste and Righteous Might come to mind. Then, when they get going, they are killers. The Kshatras on the other hand may deal insane damage and with halfway skilled handling you won't get much of a retaliation anyway.

I can't really say that I'd prefer one or another upgrade, they are a bit like playing a different faction altogether.

[Metathron]

That doesn't sound like Heroic play.

If you're referring to me, no I don't usually play on heroic, but on hard and balanced difficulties; balanced dificulty is a mod made by Ya5miel, and it's basically the same as hard in all respects save one: the computer does not cheat.

Perhaps I should start playing on heroic more to be able to understand, but I don't see why golems need to come into play at all. Their building is really costly relative to what you get for wasting 5 precious gems and mercury which is an appalingly slow walker. Thanks, but no thanks.

For early game, my strategy is always gremlin saboteurs + gargoyles + the wizard going nuts with MotW. I don't see why this should change on heroic.

Archmages in early game....

Again, I don't know if you are referring to me, but if you are, where did I say I have archmages in early game? For the sake of making each game more diverse I will occasionally have them (the plain mages, the upgrades come later) , but not most of the time, where my (rare) resources will be invested into the mage guild. What I said was they are better than the battle mages in early- to mid-game. Mmmkay?

[Jolly Joker]

...
Perhaps I should start playing on heroic more to be able to understand, but I don't see why golems need to come into play at all. Their building is really costly relative to what you get for wasting 5 precious gems and mercury which is an appalingly slow walker. Thanks, but no thanks.

For early game, my strategy is always gremlin saboteurs + gargoyles + the wizard going nuts with MotW. I don't see why this should change on heroic.

Golems have the advantage that they can be repaired in battle, so you don't lose so many, if any at all while creeping. Saboteurs and Gargs work as well, but the losses will wittle away your guards - don't forget that you face more troops on heroic.

Archmages in early game....

... What I said was they are better than the battle mages in early- to mid-game. Mmmkay?

That implies that they are used in early game, doesn't it? I mean, if you don't use them, they are certainly not better.

[Lord Lakely]

I personally favour:

1) Saboteurs: Better Overall and Sabotage is handy nonteless (what about Imbue Ballista Abusers and Deleb/Vittorio/Telsek?)
2) Obsidians: Really powerfull versus a Destructive build. Overall better as well.
3) I favour either Steels nor Magnetics. It depends mainly on my opponent.
4) I prefer Archmagi: Fireball is a great help early, Cleansing/Righteous Might is powerfull... Fist of Wrath is nice if blocked... But if their physical damage surpasses the damage of their fireball, I switch to Battlemagi
5) I have no favourite here as well. Depends on the opponent
6) Rajas early, but as soon as I have large amounts on them, I switch to Ktsaris (or whatever the spelling may be)
7) Both Units are basically the same except from Strombolt and that Temptest-thingy (forgot the name). The latter is more usefull IMO, so I pick Storm Titans.

[Metathron]

That implies that they are used in early game, doesn't it? I mean, if you don't use them, they are certainly not better.

I don't really see the logic behind this. It's like one person saying "Waking up early is good because you get more done" and then the same person says "I don't wake up early" and then another person contesting this by saying "But you must be an early riser, else how would you know if it's a good thing?" or "If you don't get up early, then it can't be a good thing."

But anyway, let's not get too tangled up in semantics, and focus on something more concrete. Do you dispute that arch magi are generally better in the first half of the game and the battle magi in the second half? Just because you don't use the archmagi in the first half of the game or so due to a lack of resources on heroic difficulty, or choose not to use them for whatever reason, does not mean they are not the better choice.

Or is that not what you meant?

[Jolly Joker]

In my opinion the advantage of the Archmages in the early game phase is purely theoretical in nature, except when defending a city with a wall or a garrison.

[PhoenixReborn]

Later on, the battle magi are superior, although I agree with GOW that it would be nice for them not to hit ANY of their allied troops, regardless of their position.

This is a change which I really want also. I wish it could be modded.

[Fewtger]

Check out the Academy creature choices thread

I seldom find use for the elemental gargoyles since you have to sacrifice them to make use of their ability.

What else are the gargoyles there for if not to be sacrificed? BTW, using them as blockers also counts as (potentially) sacrificing them in my book.

But both upgrades are fine, but far from being crucial.

I wouldn't use Elemental Gargoyles as blockers.

[discostu]

Viziers are a lot more predictable and also a perfect counter for destructive builds or cotn abusers.

I don't get it -- how do viziers help with call of the netherworld abusers? Thx.

[Elvin]

They have 75% magic proof so they are barely hurt by spells.

[danhvo]

It's hard to imagine CotN being abused. This is a weak-enough level 5 spell already. If anyone can make good use of it, I'd say good for him. More variety, instead of just Puppet Master and Vampirism. Calling it "abuse" would imply that it's overused, or its use is unfair somehow.

(Sorry to digress from the thread.)

[Elvin]

You don't often face 30 spellpower necros do you. It's basically an armageddon tha doesn't hit undead and damage is pretty decent. Throw in sorcery and it's a potential game winner provided the game is not too long.

[Lord Lakely]

Djinn Viziers are a real pain in the @$$ for typical Destructive Heroes, like Anwen, Dirael, Vinrael, Jhora, Nathir, Raven, Svea... I'm not couting Warlocks here... Their racial deals with the resistance if developped.

Elemental Gargoyles make excellent paring with Djinn Viziers. A powerfull Haste cast on both through Mark of the Wizard and you can charge. Just keep the Gargolyes out of the neighbourhood of yourr troops, preferablt land them inside Enemy Ranks and cast Circle of Winter (again with MotW) or Fireball (this one WILL damage you gargoyles, so beware)