New H5 map [Twin Sayan Kings] needs to be tested.

[ProMeTheus112]

Hi guys, I made a map a long time ago, medium sized, made for 2 players (multiplayer or not), and still had not posted it.

It includes a nice amount of new ideas aimed at enhancing multiplayer gameplay, such as faster contact between players thanks to open, low level starting zones that you have to rush into at the beginning of the game, or forcing players to spread their forces and reinforce the importance of secondary heroes by placing gold mines in different strategic points on the map. I also paid particular attention to detail when making this map so I think it looks pretty good. It's very symmetrical though, as I thought this was more or less required for a solidly balanced gameplay.

So I'm looking for one or more person to test this so I can submit it, if you're willing to do this please post here and I'll pm you and send you the map.

You don't need any expansion to play it.

[ProMeTheus112]

Since no one has replied yet I'll make it easier and provide a link to directly download the map :

http://www.mediafire.com/?4g1no9otddj

I just need one person to test the map and send me his email address so I can include it in the .txt with my map when I submit it. It is required for submission of maps here~!

[Dacarnix_]

I downloaded it and will try to play it in the next day or two.

[Dacarnix_]

I really enjoyed the map and thought it was a very interesting take on 1-on-1 game play. Starting out with all the mines and only really creeping to take dwellings was pretty cool, and the symmetrical nature of the map definitely kept things fair for both players.

Here are a few things I noticed while playing. They're in no particular order, and you might like some of them just the way they are.

1. There was no way to reach the Planetarium by the Blue Castle.

2. The sphinx questions didn't work right for me. The answer options were " ", "reward", and "Reward". I tried a few times, but that's always what I got. The rewards for getting it right were also weird. One was a white square that said it was an artifact but had no rules attached to it. So this part definitely needs another look.

3. I would recommend some boat builders in the northern zone of the map. My boat disappeared (I know that part isn't your fault), and my hero had to take a very long route back home.

4. Somewhat related to the boat situation, it might be worth putting a lumber mill in one of the more contested zones. Maybe. Just a thought.

5. Some of the one-way portals would be better off as two-way portals in my opinion. Like the ones in the middle zone. Due to how thick the woods are there, they're practically two-way portals anyway for any mid- to high-level hero (due to Instant Travel).

6. I liked the weaker neutral stacks in the contested zones since it encourages aggressive play, but I found it odd that their courage was set quite so high. For example, I fought a couple dozen Skeletons towards the very end of the game, and they didn't run from my endgame army.

7. I think the Grail could use a little bit better protection. It's in a memorable spot, and you want the map to have a high replay value.

And that's my feedback. I hope it helps some, and thank you for the map!

[Dacarnix_]

Since no one has replied yet I'll make it easier and provide a link to directly download the map :

http://www.mediafire.com/?4g1no9otddj

I just need one person to test the map and send me his email address so I can include it in the .txt with my map when I submit it. It is required for submission of maps here~!

I also PMed you my e-mail address so you can get the map submitted.

[ProMeTheus112]

All this is very valuable input for me.

1. indeed I actually noticed that when I played with my friend before and must have somehow forgotten to fix it :/ ! (it was a long time ago)

2. didn't remember the sphinx not working properly. I will fix this.

3. The idea was to get heroes to use the "summon boat" ability. I don't know the game so well but I think that back when I played the map, heroes always had this spell in their book. Will look into this again and maybe add a boat builder. Is it possible to destroy a boat ?

4. if number 3 works like I thought I won't add a lumber mill, otherwise will think about it.

5. This is a very very important point for my map : I need the shortest path from one castle to another to be long, and I need the gold mines to be not too far away from that path. The reason is because I want the players to spread their forces, play with more than 1 hero (probably 3 heroes), to discourage the "one big main hero" play that is so characteristic of H5 games. If the path from one castle to another is short and doesn't come near gold mines, then the players, I think, will tend to keep most of their forces somewhere along this path, because if they do they are defending their own castle at the same time as they are threatening the opposing castle. I think playing with 3 heroes, almost without a main one, spread on the map, is more interesting because it implies more strategic thinking. That is a major design point for my map. This is why I thought I really shouldn't make the forest portal 2 ways. When I played with my friend, I noticed this Instant Travel thing negated the design of my map later on, and thought of removing that spell from the map which I haven't done yet. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on all this. Also, did you indeed spread your forces and use more than 1 "main" hero when you played ? If not, do you agree that it should be the best way to play the map as it currently is ?

6. I actually set them to "always fight" because I didn't know exactly how often those guys would ask to join the players army or something similar, and if they did something like that it would threaten the balance of the game way too much in the beginning. Me and my friend played with automatic battles so that creeping could be made faster : although this feature is partially flawed, it solves the problem of having to fight unnecessary battles, and when they give a stupid result you can still replay. It doesn't prevent from actually playing the battles against your opponent, so all good... I will look into what can happen if I set their courage differently and maybe change that.

7. Instead of making this place somewhere that you will only go to when you know the exact grail spot (it is random), I thought this spot could and should be constantly watched by the players, reacting to your opponent trying to reach there with some forces, or to seeing him try to dig randomly for a chance to get the Grail accordingly... That is why I put some rather low defense there. What do ya think ?

Thank you for playing and for your input.

[Dacarnix_]

3. It's a known bug that the computer will sometimes delete your boats. I don't know what causes it, but it's a known bug that hasn't been fixed yet. The Vessel spell works great for moving an existing boat but not so much when the computer deletes the boat.

5. That makes sense. In that case, I'd recommend either making those portions of woods a little thicker or outright disabling Instant Travel. I looked for other spots Instant Travel could be abused and didn't see any others.

6. That's cool. I'm not quite sure how all that works either. It's not bad that you fight a few chump skeletons now and then; it just seemed odd since I'm so used to them running away.

7. I was wondering if that might have been the direction you were going with it, and that makes sense. Players who use the map more than once will quickly learn that they'll need to dispute that part of the map or face a superior foe rather quickly.

-----

I often wind up using 1 main hero on some of the maps, but your map definitely encourages multi-hero play. I would call that part a definite success. I wound up with 3 solid heroes by the time I was done and was rather surprised by the levels my non-primary heroes reached by the end of the game.

[ProMeTheus112]

Here are the changes that I made :

- Fixed the Sphinx. They were supposed to give away the answers and give a small reward of 800 gold and 300 experience. Now they ask dumb questions that are easy to answer and still give the same reward, which is unfortunately wrongly displayed by the game.

- Fixed the Planetarium.

- Changed all monsters to Wild mood : they should flee when outnumbered but will never join heroes. [so the diplomacy skill is useless on this map, as far as I know]

- Changed the 2 Refugee Camps in the eastern and western volcanoes as well as the Refugee Camp in the middle of the map into Elemental Confluxes. My idea was to let players make a secondary army off the elemental confluxes + refugee camps, but I think it's better to have only elemental confluxes because elementals come in only 4 types and will be much more conveniently stackable.

- Changed the Witch Hut in the Dreamfall Forest into a SawMill. This will help cope with the boat bug in case it happens, and will also make the area slightly more alive after the beginning which is good in my opinion. To keep things balanced (factions that require a lot of wood would benefit from this more than the others), I also replaced the Elemental Conflux in the Maromi Hills area with an Ore Pit. These two mines will make wood & ore pretty abundant on the map but that is okay : they can be used as a currency for trading against other needed resources in the late game.

- Removed the Instant Travel spell from the map.

Didn't add a boat builder as you can build boats from your Castle (and then summon it from the desert area if needed). Does the boat bug occur often ?

I will submit the map soon. Thanks Dacarnix for testing and helping me with it.

[Dacarnix_]

Sounds good to me.

I'll definitely look for the final map when it's posted.

(I don't know what influences the boat bug, but it seems pretty common to me. It only happened once on your map, but I had it happen about 5-6 times in a single map one other time, so it's something that I find a bit hard to forget.)

[RommeL_666]

I played your map,not a bad one,but am I playing on some easy level or what,when I come to the desert area,the neutral monsters there are pretty easy to defeat,is it better that they are stronger on that area,because first I am cleaning the south part of the map and then the desert area,but when I come to that point,I have a much too strong army for couple of dancers and etc..
I dont now is that mistake,but little south out of right castle is enter in submediteran part of the map,It is blocked by some tree!!
Maybe a little too much off treasure chests,and maybe you should not put in the start that all the mines are allready captured,because it is too easy then too build upgrades..
just my opinion...
map is great,acctually excellent for two players,very interesting,with many ways and points of coming to attack the enemy castle

[ProMeTheus112]

You are supposed to start the game by sending 1 hero in each starting zones, of which there are 3.

I already fixed this underground tunnel problem, thx for the notice anyway.

The treasure chests are quite numerous because they are meant to help the players build up more than 1 fairly high level hero.
As for the town upgrades being too easy due to abundant resources... good point, it didn't strike me when I played my map but it may be interesting to make it a little harder.

I already submitted the map though :p

(did some more minor changes and changed the 4x2 colossus guarding the Tear of Asha into 6x2 Titans)

[RommeL_666]

You are supposed to start the game by sending 1 hero in each starting zones, of which there are 3.

The treasure chests are quite numerous because they are meant to help the players build up more than 1 fairly high level hero.

1.you mean that I should buy two additional heroes?
hmm 6 000 gold,and weak army,hmm hard to play like that.

2.Hmm,I dont know about other players,but I alwayes use just one strong hero,other one,if I have it and he runs into treasure chest,then I pick gold instead exp.Two strong heroes demand bigger army,so much more money,hmm I dont think that it is worth of it,but that is just my opinion.

[ProMeTheus112]

Believe me, it is more than worth it on this map. I believe that if you don't do that (play with 2/3 strong heroes), you will just plainly lose for sure (against a human opponent that plays like I described).

[RommeL_666]

maybe not,I had a solid army with my main hero,I sweept clean my side of the map and then go to desert area,sweept there everything and then called vessel of shalassa and captured enemy castle without any trouble,enemy hero was on my side,but he couldnt attack my castle beacause I had strong army in it.So either way,the player who first uses this taktics will probably win.

Going in the middle of the map and south is not very useful.I got hero with level 17 even that I did not visit that part of the map. So that is why I said little less treasure chest around red castle,so that i MUST go in that area for more exp.

[PhoenixReborn]

Is the map in it's final version or are you still working on it?

[ProMeTheus112]

Is the map in it's final version or are you still working on it?

I did already submit it but the map that you can download from this thread isn't the same as the one I submitted. If someone convinces me that something should be changed, and the change is important enough, I could work on that change and submit it again, if possible.

[ProMeTheus112]

maybe not,I had a solid army with my main hero,I sweept clean my side of the map and then go to desert area,sweept there everything and then called vessel of shalassa and captured enemy castle without any trouble,enemy hero was on my side,but he couldnt attack my castle beacause I had strong army in it.So either way,the player who first uses this taktics will probably win.

Going in the middle of the map and south is not very useful.I got hero with level 17 even that I did not visit that part of the map. So that is why I said little less treasure chest around red castle,so that i MUST go in that area for more exp.

I don't understand your point. Staying in your own territory at the beginning means letting your opponent entirely clean up the 3 starting zones : he gets a lot of bonus resources and a lot of bonus experience compared to what you get. If after this phase you decide to come to the middle of the map or plainly attack him, you will already be at a disadvantage and will lose. You might have beat the computer like you described on the map, but you probably won't beat a human that plays it properly.