MM7: Knight vs Monk

[kucing]

Which of the class is stronger? I know that monk is for sure weaker in the beginning but it gets much stronger especially after it gets the unarmed and staff combo.

Assuming the monk and knight is around the same level, say 50, the skills are allocated correctly (e.g. knights go with sword, armsmaster and plate while monk goes with unarmed, staff, dodge and leather) and the items are of comparative quality, which one is stronger in terms of combat?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Well, it depends if the Knight learned the GM Armsmaster skill in Eofol. If he didn't, the monk can outdamage him with Master Unarmed and a +17 Unarmed item made with GM Enchant Item.

However, I've completed the game 5 times and done many tests, and I've found that in damage, NOTHING, NOTHING can outdamage a Knight with:

GM Armsmaster, pumped as high as you can
+17 Armsmaster item, enchanted with GM Enchant Item
A Swift Mighty Halberd in the right hand and a Swift Duelist Blade in the left hand
Skill level 7 in sword (minimum) and about 10-11 in spear (points are better spent in Armsmaster after this)


At level 77, With Day of the Gods and Hour of Power on, Leonidas the Champion is doing 131-152 dmg.
Without these spells, he can do 104-125 dmg.
He could do even more if his weapons were enchanted with "of Infernos" instead of "Swift".
I challenge any monk at that level to beat that !!


If you find that your knight has already reached the maximum attack speed, you can substitute the "swift" enchantment for something else (of Infernos, Vampiric, Dragon/Demon slaying, a good artifact/relic etc)

With this setup, your knight will hit harder than anything, AND faster than even a Monk or Thief with GM dagger (I've tested it. GM Armsmaster REALLY is that good, it provides unholy damage and recovery reduction bonuses).



By the way, +17 Armsmaster or +17 Unarmed cannot be obtained in chests/shops, only GM Enchant Item can get it that high, and +17 is the highest I've ever been able to go, doubtless some people managed to get even better.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

And before someone brings Hammerhand into the picture:

Hammerhand SUCKS. It does NOT add the existing Monk's unarmed damage in Body damage as the spell documentation says it does. It only adds the skill level of the caster in Body magic. So, a Cleric with Master body magic level 7 will add a meager 7 Body damage to the monk. Plus, many enemies are immune to Body damage. Numerous tests were made to confirm this.

Fire Aura and Vampiric Weapon are SUPERIOR to Hammerhand in every possible way. Fire Aura is the best spell early on to get rid of those pesky Oozes (sparks is good, but mana does run out).

[kucing]

Thanks a lot for that. It seems knight is superior than monk except if the party does not have anyone else who can disarm traps.

[dcinroc]

I'd also like to add that a Knight with GM Plate will receive 1/2 damage from physical attacks and have no recovery penalty.

True, the Monk adds his Leather level to his resistances...but that can be made up for by the Knight with rings and other equipment.

Plain and simple...the Knight will kick ass from beginning to end, the Monk will only kick ass at the end.

One exception...IF you find The Hands of the Master artifcact, then those bonuses will stack with any other items you may have that grant Unarmed/Dodging bonuses. In that case, thee Monk could significantly outperform the Knight.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

True, the Monk adds his Leather level to his resistances...but that can be made up for by the Knight with rings and other equipment.

Actually, only the Thief can get GM in Leather (and as such can get resistance).
Unless you modded your MM7's skills

I agree with what you said about Plate armor, my Knight/Knight/Paladin/Archer was virtually impervious to physical attacks Only instant death attacks proved somewhat of a problem.

Personally, I think the biggest single minus to play Monk is that you REQUIRE to complete the Priest promotion quest before you start doing good damage with your fists (Maater Trainer is located on Evenmorn Island); until then I'm usually better off with a good spear or sword, but those require valuable skill points to be good.

A knight can do good damage the whole game. Good swords are plentiful from the get-go, and Master Armsmaster is easy to access (Avlee). Of course, you can choose to let your Monk be a weapons master too (he can learn Master Armsmaster after all), but by the time the Knight can dual wield a spear+sword he'll outclass him, not to mention when he gets to Eofol.

[Avonu]

On one hand Knight has GM armsmaster, sword and spear. So if he has Wallece (sword: armsmaster +10), Gibbet (spear) he can deal more than 200 damage to the dragons, demons or undead.
On the other hand Monk has GM in learning, so he will be have more skill points to spare for his skills. But he deals far more less damage. I played solo monk and with his skills (10 GM unarmed, 6 EX staff) and artifact (Hands of Master (+10 unarmed) he deals only 60 damage. Maybe when I have GM in staff he will do more damage but I don't think that he can match with Knight.
But there is one thing that I like in Monk - he is more resistant to spells (I was only once paralized in Red Dwarf Mines). But maybe I was lucky?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Avonu, I highly discourage anyone from using staff - even for a monk combined with Unarmed. It's just too slow, and does NOT benefit from Armsmaster's damage bonus. You'll just get a slight damage increase over what you'd do with bare fists (the bare damage of the staff). At least Unarmed benefits from Armsmaster's Attack Bonus and Recovery, and is hella fast.

I have used staves a few times, and I've found them to be completely worthless, for any class.
I had a game (Cleric-Sorc-Sorc-Thief, going dark) where I had one sorc with Daggers, the other with Staff. Turns out I didn't find Ethric staff unfortunately ( I do not Multi-loot as I find it cheating), but it's OK since I did find an amulet of Dark Magic, AND a ring of dark magic. With the Moon cloak, all 3 of my spellcasters had increased Dark magic effects. I regretted not going for daggers with this 2nd mage. The AC bonus given by it is insignificant.

I never multi-loot, but I often save right in front of the magic shop in Deyja/Bracada. I find most of my "Of XXX Magic" rings and amulets there. When I don't find any I want, I reload. I also do this with the yellow ores in Erathia. By end game most of my spell casters have most of their magic skills boosted. So Ethric staff, or any Artifact/Relic that boosts magic skills are unneeded for me.

Staves start slow, and never get faster or do more damage with skill points, and require two hands. Useless.

[Kackelacka]

Monks are bad at melee, magic and ranged. Their GMs depends on other GMs so it's very hard to achieve the staff using with unarmed combat, even s/he gains GMy of staff s/he still sucks. Their hps are not high as you mention in the game manual.

Knights are the symbol of true power of battlefield. Mastery on sword and spear is quite easy to achieve. He can be a daisho master with Puck/Charele or Wallace/Gibbet. I saw 110 dmg against a dragon with m'level 5 knight, he was wearing Puck/Charele. Skill points comes from challenges and horseshoes of course. By that time i have a monk with mastery on H2H combat (with Master hammerhands cast on him) even m'cleric hits harder than this bushido.

Monks can be useful only here; a challenge party 4 monks, that's it!

[kucing]

Staves not working with armsmaster sounds like a bug. It's a melee weapon right? So it should work.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Staves not working with armsmaster sounds like a bug. It's a melee weapon right? So it should work.

Staves do properly work with Armsmaster ONLY if you DON'T have GM Staff. I know, I tried it with a test save! Once you get GM Unarmed, it uses an entirely different formula for damage and adds a mere ~12 damage to your Unarmed damage, and slows it down A LOT. And YES, it also looks a bug to me.

That means a staff wielding knight with ungodly GM Armsmaster values can outperform a staff wielding monk!

[PhoenixReborn]

When I got GM dodging with my monk I read that I could now use leather armor and have the bonus added at no penalty. There is no similar description about staffs when getting gm unarmed so I'm using leather but not using a staff.

[Avonu]

But with GM in staff you can use staff AND unarmed.
Anyway my monk (6 EX staff, 10 GM unarmed) didn't use staff (yet). But he will be - additional electric damage is always nice, same as bonus for armor class.

Avonu, I highly discourage anyone from using staff - even for a monk combined with Unarmed. It's just too slow, and does NOT benefit from Armsmaster's damage bonus

Thanks for tips but I want personally to test this combination. Besides now my monk isn't too fast in combat. I have to dodged between enemies before have chance to hit them but on the other hand, playing with solo monk is something different than ordinary team game.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Correction to my above post:
The staff bug shows up when your monk learns GM Staff, not GM Unarmed.
(GM Unarmed affects nothing, all it does it give extra evasion).

On the other hand, yes, GM Dodging works perfectly with Master Leather, giving the monk insane AC.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

But with GM in staff you can use staff AND unarmed.

I know that ! but the damage increase is minimal for the HUGE slow down you will suffer.

[Avonu]

I was refering to PhoenixReborn's post.


And what about staves "of swift" or "of darkness". Did you tested they speed?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I was refering to PhoenixReborn's post.

Sorry about that.
Phoenix Reborn, the description is in the Staff skill text, not the Unarmed skill text.

And what about staves "of swift" or "of darkness". Did you tested they speed?

Just did that, with 2 identical monks (in skill). The enchantment helps, for sure. But, it's still a good 33% faster if you use bare hands.

*shrugs*

Since you get a slight damage and Attack Bonus increase, small AC increase, and chance to stun, I concede it's not as bad as I first thought. However, from a pure damage/per/second perspective I still think those points you spent to get GM Staff would have been better spent in Unarmed.

[Avonu]

Thanks

However, I still think those points you spent to get GM Staff would have been better spent in Unarmed.

Well, it's doesn't matter. I always spend skill points to all character's skills - as they are important or not. So I will have GM staff and unarmed nonetheless.
Besides, I now clearing The Pit with bow only (not much room for real-time hand-to-hand combat) - these dragon's breaths are annoying.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I never played Turn Based mode.

Ever. In neither MM6, MM7 or MM8.

I learned the art of dodging enemy spells

[PhoenixReborn]

Thanks for the clarification guys! i don't have anyone with staff skill so I didn't know

Interestingly enough I only play the combats in turn based mode. Therefore I'm not ready for the Pit yet (closing in on lvl 40)...the real time dodging seemed too much like taking advantage...