Summon Creatures vs. Caravan

[Paulus1]

The recent column by Milla inspired this topic.

One thing she felt was missing from Heroes V is the Caravan known from Heroes IV. While I acknowledge that it was a nice feature in Heroes IV, I think Summon Creatures in Heroes V covers the most important feature of Caravans and is actually more useful overall.

When playing Heroes IV I tend to ignore external dwellings after some time, unless really badly in need of reinforcements. The main reason for using caravans is to transport troops faster from main town to the front line.

This function is performed much better and more usefully by Summon Creatures, although one could argue that it's not quite as realistic.
So, what's your take on the situation? Do you miss the caravan, or are you satisfied with Summon Creature?

[ThunderTitan]

Caravans took creatures from a town or a dweling to another town within X days. SC takes them from the nearest town to your hero instantly, no matter the distance. You still need a secondary hero to ferry troops from 1 town to another.

SC replaces heroless creatures more then Caravans.

[omegaweix]

Though the "summon creature" spell was a nice surprise in the final release of H5, i still miss a caravan-like mechanism for getting units from external dwellings!


And if you conquer one more town, SC becomes "a bit" uselss because you won't get your reinforcements from your hometown.... therefore, an extra possibility to transfer creatures between cities (like... a caravan!) would still be convenient...

Well, i still hope for betterment when an expansion comes out.... maybe not a proper caravan but...hmmm... a "city-to-city-transfer" and a "dwelling-to-city-transfer" spell


edit:
I just wondered...... TT and DL.... what did you do to get your counters cut so harsh? I suppose(d) that DL spammed too much.... but what is your excuse ?

[VortexD]

I think SC is a good addition but like said, gets useless once you conquer another town and you need troop from the main base but is farther then the conquered base. Maybe what would be more usefull would be the a dimension door that would allow you to enter and exit in front of a town (by choice at higher caster level) but remains open till you enter the gate again and got back to the location where you came from.

[Ethric]

As I said before, SC is a nice addition, but it doesn't have any bearing on the lack of a caravan funcion, as they do 2 different things. There aren't any overlap in their functions that I can see. So I for one feel that putting them vs eachother is a bit misplaced.

And DL and TT both spammed to much in inapropriate places.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Paulus1

I disagree,and heres why:

First,the most important thing about caravans,imo,is not that you can get your units from a dwelling or another town without a hero,but the fact that units have separate movement.I hate chaining.Moving a huge army from one corner to another in a single day is just dumb.Heroes could still be chained to a hero,true,but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt have separate movement.It adds a lot to the strategy.

Summon creatures could exist togheter with caravans(if its fixed,of course),because caravans allow strategic distribution of your armies throughout your empire,and summon creatures should be just a last resort spell.

edit:
I just wondered...... TT and DL.... what did you do to get your counters cut so harsh? I suppose(d) that DL spammed too much.... but what is your excuse ?

Errr...You didnt see his "I got to 5k before DL" signature?Sure,I spam more than him,but I have higher usefull percentage

And its not that TT and I spam too much.We are just here more often then others.Mods are just jealous

[Count Zero]

I miss the caravans. I do not especially like using lots of undeveloped heroes to act as couriers.

[asandir]

i miss the caravans to a degree, thou summon creatures certainly makes up for some of that lack

[thecheese]

I always liked the caravan's abilities to hire from outside flagged dwellings. It made a big difference in the long run. That said, summon creatures in no way substitutes caravans for reasons already listed here. There's really no reason they couldn't re-impliment caravans in some way.

[dallasmavs41]

The idea of the caravan was likeable enough, and it was great. But the 3 previous Heroes games didn't have it, so the loss of it in H5 isn't TOO bad...Although I agree with others, and think they could have implemented it in H5 somehow...

[Jimmpi]

Bring back the caravan!!!...they where ALOT of help in heroes IV

[tumorbane]

I really hated the caravans. The game is much better without them.

[Kristo]

My only problem with caravans is their invulnerability until they reach their destination. You can't do anything about them until they pile up at the doorstep of a newly conquered town. If they brought back caravans but made them visible as they moved, I would be happy.

[Meandor]

My only problem with caravans is their invulnerability until they reach their destination. You can't do anything about them until they pile up at the doorstep of a newly conquered town. If they brought back caravans but made them visible as they moved, I would be happy.

If you want to start caravan you have to know route there and it mustn`t be blocked by neutrals/enemies. If caravans were vulnerable during their travel they would be practicaly useless with all patroling/respawning neutrals and enemies. If i had to hire army and a heroes to protect my caravans every day i wouldn`t use them, i would cary reinforcements with these heroes. Caravans in H4 were perfect, such changes would make them too complicated and useless.
When you conquer town you can check when caravans from your enemie are arriving.

[Gaidal Cain]

The only change I'd want is that creatures transported to a town captured by enemy forces are automatically lost on arrival. At least the 2 medusa, 3 zombies, 4 imps etc the AI caravans in every day. Larger forces might survive.

[ThunderTitan]

Maybe it would be better if instead of losing them for ever they could get a chance to be hired by the enemy for more gold or something. Or make them stay in limbo for a week or more to give you a chance to retake the city before they dissapear.

[Kristo]

If you want to start caravan you have to know route there and it mustn`t be blocked by neutrals/enemies. If caravans were vulnerable during their travel they would be practicaly useless with all patroling/respawning neutrals and enemies. If i had to hire army and a heroes to protect my caravans every day i wouldn`t use them, i would cary reinforcements with these heroes.

I'd argue that you would still use them, but only in friendly territory. That further cements my point IMHO. I use caravans mostly to transport large forces from the rear to frontier towns. Their speed and invulnerability makes it safer and faster than using heroes. If an enemy hero shows up near the path of a caravan (which is a lot more likely than blocking it completely), the caravan slips by unseen instead of being attacked.

The cost of these visible caravans comes in the form of risk: if it is attacked, the troops are forced to fight without a hero. They also would not be able to alter course, except to avoid obstacles.

[Bonzer]

I may get shot down here, never having played H4 much, but does anyone remeber Warlords?

Not the real time rubbish, the proper TURN BASED version. It allowed you to produce your troops in one town, but have them "forwarded" to another selected town. This took several game days from when they were hireable to arrival at the new location, dependent, I think, on distance.

This had good and bad points. If their destination town was captured by the enemy while they were in transit, you lost them (having paid for them). But it did mean you wouldn't be affected by the spawning of creatures or enemy movement on the main map which would affect a caravan route. It also seems (just a little) more plausible to me than Summon Creature, which should be kept as it has clear uses.

I just wonder if the H5 team would consider themselves "above" copying and modifying an idea from an older competitors game.

I agree with all the views in this thread so far, except those who would rely on only one method.

Personally I would like to see caravans, SC, and troop forwarding, they all have their uses, and the more choice the player has the more he can perfect a set of strategies.

I also liked the Warlords idea of being able to destoy enemy towns or reduce their capacity, and to realign them. But that would be a different thread!

[Jimmpi]

The only change I'd want is that creatures transported to a town captured by enemy forces are automatically lost on arrival. At least the 2 medusa, 3 zombies, 4 imps etc the AI caravans in every day. Larger forces might survive.

couldn't said better myself!!!

[Necaradan666]

The difference is that a few creatures would not be hired every day but a large force every week. So if the whole weeks worth of creatures was to show up at your castle they should get a chance to fight or you'd be losing a lot of gold.

Much better in my opinion than the horrid task of going to hire creatues every single day ( that's the only reason I stopped playing H4 I was going nuts from the constant need to buy more creatures )