H3/H5 game mechanic differences

[zhuge]

Apart from the damage system, here are a few I noticed:

1)H3 - heroes garrisoned in a castle do not count to the 8 hero limit so you could have 8 heroes + 1 for each castle/town you own.
H5 - moving a hero into garrison appears to make no difference. 8 heroes whether active or garrisoned is the limit

2)H3 - leaving fast troops with the hero increases mobility for next day
H5 - no significant differences found in mobility whether fast or slow troops taken (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

[Cunning Death]

Apart from the damage system, here are a few I noticed:

1)H3 - heroes garrisoned in a castle do not count to the 8 hero limit so you could have 8 heroes + 1 for each castle/town you own.
H5 - moving a hero into garrison appears to make no difference. 8 heroes whether active or garrisoned is the limit

It seems to be that hero order mechanics reflect this. In H3 if you brought your hero back to the map, it went to the last position on the list on the right side, and in H5 it went to its original place. I think this happens because if you put your hero to the garisson in H5, it isn't removed from your adventure hero list, just flagged, so it is not visible on your list.
I myself never had more than 6 heroes, but it's good to know that there's a limit.

[DaemianLucifer]

1)H3 - heroes garrisoned in a castle do not count to the 8 hero limit so you could have 8 heroes + 1 for each castle/town you own.
H5 - moving a hero into garrison appears to make no difference. 8 heroes whether active or garrisoned is the limit

Whats the point of this limmit anyway?The ninth hero would cost you 6000 gold,which is quite limmiting anyway.

2)H3 - leaving fast troops with the hero increases mobility for next day
H5 - no significant differences found in mobility whether fast or slow troops taken (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

I think that is correct,and Im glad it is,because I never liked those dumb exploits regarding speed.Although I hate chaining the way it is now,Im glad it cannot be exploited like in HIII.

[zhuge]

In the Inferno campaign, mission 4, I did use 8 heroes and would have preferred to garrison one while getting another. Wasn't possible though till I dismissed one of my scouting heroes.
I know quite a number of HoMM vets like to play with long hero chains for effective day 1 strikes on enemy castles. So from my point of view, getting the maximum number allowed is hardly uncommon, even though the rising costs for every added hero is now somewhat prohibitive.

Also note that I could only hire 2 heroes the 1st week and 2 heroes in the 2nd week in that mission. Not sure if this could also be limited/scripted by the campaign.


The speed "exploit" as you put it was still present in the beta IIRC. Not really an objectionable change of course. Just pointing it out as it's almost a habit for some to leave your heroes with fast troops if possible before ending turn in H3.


Would like to hear of other general changes in game play.
Btw, do we have data on how much each terrain type restricts movement?
This used to be nicely documented in H3 and is sadly lacking in H5

[DaemianLucifer]

Would like to hear of other general changes in game play.
Btw, do we have data on how much each terrain type restricts movement?
This used to be nicely documented in H3 and is sadly lacking in H5

The documentation is very scarce,so we have nothing on those.

One more big change is in leveling up.Now,its almost imposible to gain levels after 25 the regular way since you need hell of a lot of XP for that.

[Wolfshanze]

One more big change is in leveling up.Now,its almost imposible to gain levels after 25 the regular way since you need hell of a lot of XP for that.

I agree... getting levels past 25 is insanely difficult... some folks say it doesn't get bad till 30, but this has NOT been my experience... it takes multiple battles with HUGE armies to get past level 25... maybe those folks play a scenario for 24 months or something so armies are ridiculously huge, but I like to finish scenarios a little quicker. I don't think leveling up past 25 should be so difficult or require such vast armies. I shouldn't have to fight against 100 black dragons and 100 arch devils to go up one level.

[OliverFA]

Apart from the damage system, I myself never had more than 6 heroes, but it's good to know that there's a limit.

That limit is something that has been around since Heroes I. And I cannot understand neither believe that it is still around many years after that in Heroes 5. 8 heroes is an arbitrary limit without much sense. Yes, at the begining there were only 32 heroes and 4 players, so 8 is the result to divide 32 among 4. But now we have many more different heroes. And anyway, they could just do like in Heroes 4, make up new heroes with the same face and different name.

[DaemianLucifer]

That limit is something that has been around since Heroes I. And I cannot understand neither believe that it is still around many years after that in Heroes 5. 8 heroes is an arbitrary limit without much sense. Yes, at the begining there were only 32 heroes and 4 players, so 8 is the result to divide 32 among 4. But now we have many more different heroes. And anyway, they could just do like in Heroes 4, make up new heroes with the same face and different name.

The limit isnt the same.In previous sequels you could buy heroes after 8th one,but you could only have 8 of them on the adventure map,the rest had to be in garnisones(9 armies were possible in HIV,but it was an exploit).Now,you cannot have more then 8 heroes even in garnisons.

And this limit is a good thing because of the dumb chaining.

[Ari]

2)H3 - leaving fast troops with the hero increases mobility for next day
H5 - no significant differences found in mobility whether fast or slow troops taken (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

I think that is correct,and Im glad it is,because I never liked those dumb exploits regarding speed.Although I hate chaining the way it is now,Im glad it cannot be exploited like in HIII.

This wasn't really an exploit. It makes perfect sense that if you travel as a group, you're limited by the speed of the slowest unit. Conversly, if you *only* travel with very mobile units, you can get much further than if you're also traveling with unmounted units.

It would be an exploit if units on your hero on day n affected movement on day n+1, but my experience was that each day's movement was calculated based on the slowest creature in your group on that particular day.

[DaemianLucifer]

This wasn't really an exploit. It makes perfect sense that if you travel as a group, you're limited by the speed of the slowest unit. Conversly, if you *only* travel with very mobile units, you can get much further than if you're also traveling with unmounted units.

It would be an exploit if units on your hero on day n affected movement on day n+1, but my experience was that each day's movement was calculated based on the slowest creature in your group on that particular day.

I was talking about leaving your slow units in a mine,or a town on the end of the day so you could get better speed on the nexr day.That is quite an exploit.

[Ari]

Ah, true. Was it heroes 4, then where they'd actually decrease your movement when you then added back slow creatures or am I simply misremembering and that never happened?

[Gus]

in H4, you could not "chain" because each creature had its own movement points reserve, which was depleting as you moved. If you then took the slowest unit out of your army, you could still move a bit, until the next slower creature would limit you, and so on. In the same fashion, after a hero moved and used up the movement points of his army, if he transfered this army to you, your movement points would be greatly reduced.
Hope that's clearer than i think it is =P

[DaemianLucifer]

HIV also had separate bonuses from movement increasers like stables,oasis,etc.Stables lasted for 7 days,not until day 7 of the week(much more logical,isnt it?).Why this is removed,I have no idea.But it again brings back stable exploits.And creature movements couldve been preserved even with chaining.But then again,it would be breaking the rule.

[cornellian]

The purge of the good ideas in HoMM IV really hurt HoMM V in my opinion. Creatures having their own movement points was a very clever touch, we didn't have dwarves racing against black dragons and of course the brilliantly simple idea of caravans were slaughtered for Summon Creature, and this spell really punishes you for expanding. You can't summon your paladins because you just conquered a Necro town ..

Caravans system sped up the game quite a bit, by not having to micromanage your heroes to chains then visiting windmills, leprechauns etc, and then building up the chain again and again.. But no, we had to do everything HoMM III style .

[Nebs]

That is quite an exploit.

I call it a nice strategic element.

As for hero limit, it's good as with such a few heroes in game, and possible 8 player games, could happen that some one can't recruit 3rd or 4th hero.

[DaemianLucifer]

I call it a nice strategic element.

Riiight.And I asume taking the town on day 7 and buying all the creatures next day,or using the fact that you play first to conquer the town on day 1 and buy all is also a nice strategic element?As is the rush towards TP and expert earth?A really nice strategic element.

[Bandobras Took]

The purge of the good ideas in HoMM IV really hurt HoMM V in my opinion. Creatures having their own movement points was a very clever touch, we didn't have dwarves racing against black dragons and of course the brilliantly simple idea of caravans were slaughtered for Summon Creature, and this spell really punishes you for expanding. You can't summon your paladins because you just conquered a Necro town ..

I'm actually in favor of that decision. Anything to mitigate the "whoever wins first keeps on winning" situation. As it stands, both Summon Creature and Town Portal favor whoever's not currently winning, which makes it more interesting, in my opinion.

I don't miss the external-dwelling aspect of caravans that much. In fact, I'm glad that the first thing I don't have to do after capturing an AI town is sit around eight days waiting for caravans, like I did in Heroes IV.

Caravans system sped up the game quite a bit, by not having to micromanage your heroes to chains then visiting windmills, leprechauns etc, and then building up the chain again and again.. But no, we had to do everything HoMM III style .

I agree with the flaggable windmills and water wheels, though. I'd like to see that come back.

[Bandobras Took]

I call it a nice strategic element.

Riiight.And I asume taking the town on day 7 and buying all the creatures next day,or using the fact that you play first to conquer the town on day 1 and buy all is also a nice strategic element?

Agreed. Creature growth in towns should be determined at least at the start of a player's turn so that Red and Blue are on an equal footing as far as taking towns on day one goes.

[Nebs]

Riiight.And I asume taking the town on day 7 and buying all the creatures next day,...

Well, yes. Weekly growth is game design, and my opponent knows that as well. Now, as game doesn't have fog of war, and my opponent let me plan all the moves before attacking his town on day 7 it's their fault. Not an exploit.

...or using the fact that you play first to conquer the town on day 1 and buy all is also a nice strategic element?

No. And that element, called Red Rush by many, is an unwritten rule of many. That is, rule of not using it. Think I never played anyone who used this 'exploit'. And yet, there are people that could play with it, along with some other exploits like hit and run, and ruin it for those that were using it. Using some strategic moves. :-)

As for earth, well doh, it's the best magic school, one that is always useful to have. Blame the game makers for that one. And don't know anyone who's rushing for TP as ressurection is almost always more useful, even sometimes meteor shower. Anyway, not sure how that is either exploit or strategy as depends on luck that you'll even get it. Be it skill, or spell.

[Gus]

you say "blame the game makers"... Well, that's exactly what he (and many) is doing.
The "Red Rush" as you call it is clearly an exploit. Taking the town on turn 7 to deprive them of the growth is strategy. Taking it on Day 1 without letting them recruit because you play before, is a sort of exploit and should be mitigated (letting the defender buy the creatures he wants with the money of the day for example). The "white-imbalance" can be fixed, so let's do it.