Dungeon creation and modelling tips

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
Eksekk
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Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Eksekk » 05 Apr 2023, 21:38

I have said several times that I will do a kind of "guide", but it took me much more time than I thought :) . Nonetheless, here is the result:

Download here. The archive contains five files: tips docx file (sorry, I don't know of better and easy enough format for such things, if you know something better I would be glad if you shared), as well as pdf version, two lua scripts and blender addon. They are all outlined in the document. You may also find my old questions thread useful.

If this helps you, I will be very glad! If it doesn't, then you can always post the question here and I'll answer it (may take some time though).
Unfinished mod by me: MM7 Rev4 mod, MMMerge version.

Eksekk
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Eksekk » 06 Apr 2023, 13:13

File was updated. I actually forgot to include vertex coordinates script :)
Unfinished mod by me: MM7 Rev4 mod, MMMerge version.

Kaltenberg
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Kaltenberg » 06 Apr 2023, 13:46

Absolutely missing, thanks Eksekkk!
I would like to write down a few thoughts:

- I think that if someone wants to start modeling, it's better to discover a few things first for his own, just some basic functions, and practice for a few hours/day. Then he will really realize the practical use of your tips.
- I approach it a bit differently, e.g. I don't use UV at all in Blender, just paste the bare model into the game and then start texturing it up. It's easier for me that way.
- I always do everything in wireframe view, somehow get a better overview of the whole model.
- I plan the future textures in my head, what goes where. I mean, the best way to get the best look is to search through the textures and then match your wall or part of a wall to it. The other way round is not so elegant, so if you make the wall part and figure out afterwards what texture it should have, it will either look good later or not.
- A time-saving tip: look for symmetry elements on the model! More specifically, a mirror plane. If your room, or even part of your dungeon, is symmetrical, you only need to model one half of it. Then duplicate it, rotate 180° and attach it to the other half. You'll finish in half the time!
- In MM7, I always design the terrain and the surface in the Editor first, and adjust my model to it in Blender. Then with a simple import, everything will be right in the right place, no need to "fly" the houses separately in the Editor.
- You have to be very careful if you want to rotate something to insert into the game. If there is a section of wall that is not on the X or Y axis, it is handled quite badly by the game. For example, I have a building that is rotated 45°, and there were sections (windows) on it that the game simply made invisible. (The normals were oriented correctly.) But it also happens that this particular section of wall disappears when viewed from certain angles in the game if it is put in rotated. You have to test it from time to time to see if that idea works.
- A couple of interesting things: the minimum size a team can pass through is 80×160 (160m in height). BUT only if it encloses 90° with the adjacent walls. :) And if you don't have to go up or down. If, like a funnel, they meet and the angle is larger, the characters won't fit. There will be such a section in my pyramid, so claustrophobic that even I am scared of it during tests. :D
The whole team takes up exactly the space of a single ring. :) So if a ring can fall through a hole, so can the team, and if it gets stuck, so does the team. I can't remember the exact size of this one, but I think it might be 64×64.

Eksekk
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Eksekk » 07 Apr 2023, 01:22

Thanks for the feedback!
Kaltenberg wrote: 06 Apr 2023, 13:46 - I think that if someone wants to start modeling, it's better to discover a few things first for his own, just some basic functions, and practice for a few hours/day. Then he will really realize the practical use of your tips.
That's a good point. I actually intended this to be the real tutorial (not full step-by-step, but rather that it should contain much more stuff). However, I abandoned that approach really quickly because my motivation dropped dramatically, because I knew I couldn't do this as well as I wanted it to be. So instead decided to make a collection of tips. I'm not good at teaching, but writing down/showing some isolated stuff isn't that hard.
Kaltenberg wrote: 06 Apr 2023, 13:46 - I approach it a bit differently, e.g. I don't use UV at all in Blender, just paste the bare model into the game and then start texturing it up. It's easier for me that way.
That approach is probably better, but I can't do modeling without having "instant feedback". Motivation problems :(
Kaltenberg wrote: 06 Apr 2023, 13:46 - I always do everything in wireframe view, somehow get a better overview of the whole model.
Always?! I use wireframe quite a lot, usually when doing more technical stuff, but couldn't use it for like an hour continuously, or I would forget what I am actually modeling :)
Kaltenberg wrote: 06 Apr 2023, 13:46 - I plan the future textures in my head, what goes where. I mean, the best way to get the best look is to search through the textures and then match your wall or part of a wall to it. The other way round is not so elegant, so if you make the wall part and figure out afterwards what texture it should have, it will either look good later or not.
That is a good tip, and probably better for most other people, however not for me personally. I mentioned that "instant feedback" already, but also I can't squeeze into my head how entire dungeon looks without making some "visual notes" in map editor, and then it's just one step from doing everything in blender :) Actually, at the beginning I had big problems with UVs, but once I developed this addon I guess I got too comfortable :D
Kaltenberg wrote: 06 Apr 2023, 13:46 - A time-saving tip: look for symmetry elements on the model! More specifically, a mirror plane. If your room, or even part of your dungeon, is symmetrical, you only need to model one half of it. Then duplicate it, rotate 180° and attach it to the other half. You'll finish in half the time!
Yes, I should have included that. I have not planned for doing modeling like this, but I had the opportunity in mind and used it several times. What's more, if you are not doing fully mirrored design, or adding last minute details to already mirrored parts, I find pivot point cursor in the middle along with duplicating and scaling in one axis by -1 (this can be done in one operation: shift + d -> s -> x/y/z -> -1 -> enter) extremely useful. Actually, when I understood fully usage of pivot point that was huge leap in my modeling productivity :)
Unfinished mod by me: MM7 Rev4 mod, MMMerge version.

Tomsod
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Tomsod » 07 Apr 2023, 03:02

Good job! I've read your earlier door tutorial and skimmed through this one too, as I spent last several days trying to figure out if it's possible for the same facet(s) to be part of two different doors. Your tips helped, but the tentative conclusion is that the engine might support it yet the editor code, unfortunately, does not. You don't happen to know anything about this?

EDIT: and on your worrying about the tips file format, PDF is actually perfect, as it has "portable" in the name. It's read-only, of course, but most readers won't want to edit your treatise anyway. If you want to leave that option open and make sure anyone can open the file, I'd recommend RTF. DOCX is somewhat Windows-specific, although there are compatible editors for all major OCs, but someone's favorite program might not work with it, whereas RTF is almost as universally accepted as PDF, and only lacks some fancy advanced features 99% of Word documents (including yours) aren't actually using.

Eksekk
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Eksekk » 07 Apr 2023, 10:44

I don't know anything about that sadly, however, in newest repo mmext, there's some facet property called "MultiDoor". Maybe it works like that?

I would do RTF, but word doesn't save it without bugs (most annoying one is that file size is absolutely massive (200 MB for a file with few pictures!). If there is a solution to that bug, I'll switch.
Unfinished mod by me: MM7 Rev4 mod, MMMerge version.

Tomsod
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Re: Dungeon creation and modelling tips

Unread postby Tomsod » 07 Apr 2023, 14:08

Yes, that property is what makes me think the engine should support it, but it doesn't seem to be fully implemented yet.
About RTF, Wikipedia says you can fix the images thing through the registry.


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