Dungeon Mission 3: Impossible

[Linky]

Okay, I'm trying to finish the Dungeon campaign mission 3, "The Cultists" on hard difficulty level. I can't for the life of it figure a way to clear this map. You start without any castles, the enemy has I think four. I managed to take over the first one near the starting point, but after holding it for a week the AI came from all sides with pretty strong armies. I destroyed 3 of them with the weekly growth, but the fourth got me. The biggest problem was that they have the "raise dead" spell, which makes it really hard to win those battles with anything left but a couple of minotaurs or assassins, so I can't gather up a big army to defend myself with.

If anyone else has reached this mission, feel free to share some light if you've managed to finish it.

Don't tell me to change the difficulty level to Normal. This has to be clearable with the harder levels as well.

[innokenti]

¬_¬ Ahem.

(VARSITY! WOO! GO TEAM!)

[Linky]

You've mistaken the Inferno campaign with the Dungeon one here, pal. I've cleared the Haven, Inferno and Necropolis campaigns already.

[Nebs]

I got annoyed plenty of times on this map (Heroic) with wave after wave of attacks. But luckily, I managed to cap both heroes in previous map, and they had some nifty spells. Realag had meteor shower, implo, all but chain lightning, and Shayda (?) along with those previously mentioned, Summon Phoenix as well. All empowered versions as well. So managed to beat dungeon heroes with just a meagre army on my side. And always have full 7 stacks. AI likes to guard archers, so meteor shower is quite handy...and summoned Phoenix is an army for itself, just make sure other troops don't die. As for start of the game, I went for western town first, got attacked by a hero, luckily stayed alive with 50+ minos, took town, and another hero came from town just northeast of there. He fought me in town, so wasn't too bad. Had to have full spell points.

Also, what helped, I bought every enemy hero but one. So, I recommend checking tavern really often. You get powerful scouts, and enemy's missing powerful attack heroes.

Also, other than those two towns at start, there are just five more. :-)

And after taking every two castles, inferno hero is spawned, and getting after you. Each stronger than last one.

[Linky]

Jesus, that's pretty stupid. I didn't cap the female hero and was going for the Warlock ultimate ability with realag so I don't really much in terms of spells. This essentially means that I can't finish this mission. I guess I'll try it with normal and see if I can manage it. I'm not going to start the whole campaign over.

This is very bad mission planning on Nival's behalf. Big minus for this.[/b]

[DaemianLucifer]

Jesus, that's pretty stupid. I didn't cap the female hero and was going for the Warlock ultimate ability with realag so I don't really much in terms of spells. This essentially means that I can't finish this mission. I guess I'll try it with normal and see if I can manage it. I'm not going to start the whole campaign over.

This is very bad mission planning on Nival's behalf. Big minus for this.[/b]

Sometimes just finishing a map is not enough.It sounds more like bad planing from you,and not from nival.

[Linky]

So you're telling me that if I don't get both my heroes to max level and choose skills that prevent me from getting the 'ultimate ability' I am not eligible of finishing the game, but that I have to *redo* earlier missions just so that I'd even have a shot at the one I'm playing?

[DaemianLucifer]

No,Im telling you that if you just play each mission fast in order to finish it quickly,and you dont plan on having your heroes prepared for suprises,it will be hard(or imposible) for you to finish the game.

[Linky]

I did level up my main hero to the maximum level cap I had. There was nothing more I could do except level up the other hero. She ended up about 5 levels under the maximum. I never needed her in the mission, so there wasn't really any way I could've prepared better now was there?

It's absolutely ridiculous if you can gimp your characters in a way that the campaigns become unclearable.

[DaemianLucifer]

I did level up my main hero to the maximum level cap I had. There was nothing more I could do except level up the other hero. She ended up about 5 levels under the maximum. I never needed her in the mission, so there wasn't really any way I could've prepared better now was there?

It's absolutely ridiculous if you can gimp your characters in a way that the campaigns become unclearable.

Then you leveled up the wrong way.The ultimate ability shouldnt be the only path you should follow.

[Linky]

If you wish to get the ultimate ability, you are forced to take only those skills. You can't fill the abilities slots with other useful skills as you can't get the prerequirements.

I've finished all the previous Heroes campaigns save for Heroes 4's and maybe some from the expansions. Imagine how difficult these missions will be for newcomers. Why are you defending the game against me all the sudden, after the only thing you have done the past several weeks is bash HoMMV?

How can it be acceptable that you can gimp your characters this badly?

[DaemianLucifer]

If you wish to get the ultimate ability, you are forced to take only those skills. You can't fill the abilities slots with other useful skills as you can't get the prerequirements.

I've finished all the previous Heroes campaigns save for Heroes 4's and maybe some from the expansions. Imagine how difficult these missions will be for newcomers. Why are you defending the game against me all the sudden, after the only thing you have done the past several weeks is bash HoMMV?

How can it be acceptable that you can gimp your characters this badly?

I never bashed HV,just its weak points.If someone said that the initiative was bad,or the addition of succubi,Id defend those as well.And you are not obligated to take the ultimate ability.Im actually glad that there is a campaign that has chasing the ultimate ability as a bad thing.

And for new players there are lower dificulties(if those are well optimized,that is)

[ThunderTitan]

I never bashed HV,just its weak points.If someone said that the initiative was bad,or the addition of succubi,Id defend those as well.And you are not obligated to take the ultimate ability.Im actually glad that there is a campaign that has chasing the ultimate ability as a bad thing.

And for new players there are lower dificulties(if those are well optimized,that is)

I don't really like the initiative thingy. Having some creatures act 2 or 3 times while another acts only once is just annoying. Especialy since you can steal retal the first timne and then attack again.

And there is no Easy dificulty.

[Campaigner]

I don't really like the initiative thingy. Having some creatures act 2 or 3 times while another acts only once is just annoying. Especialy since you can steal retal the first timne and then attack again.
And there is no Easy dificulty.

Initiative and being able to attack Plague Zombies with Agraels Nightmares 4 times before fatso can move is the top 3 funniest thing for me

And easy difficulty are for little kids and grandmas.

*ontopic* I'm currently on Inferno campaign. Pretty tricky on Heroic I tell ya.

[ThunderTitan]

And easy difficulty are for little kids and grandmas.

And people who's game lags when entering towns. I remember not being able to finish Warcraft 3's last mission on my old PC because of the lag, and when I got the new PC that mission was a breeze. I was actualy shocked on how easy it seemed.

Sure initiative is fun, but it isn't very right. Like Zombie aren't useless enough.

[Bandobras Took]

Why are you defending the game against me all the sudden, after the only thing you have done the past several weeks is bash HoMMV?

You should treasure the moment instead of complaining about it.

However, from what I can tell, you started immediately on the hard difficulty, and found out you made an irretrievable mistake.

Which means:
1) You thought you were good enough to do it no matter what;
2) You evidently didn't keep any backup saves from previous missions in case you did screw up (because you believed it inconceivable that you could); and
3) Your ego won't permit you to say that the fault lies with anybody other than the campaign designer.

Hmmmm . . . I would say you should either have started on normal and changed to hard when you had some actual experience with the campaigns, or kept backups in the eventuality of messing up due to lack of experience. Either way, the fault's not with the campaign designer, since we have another person who beat it by making a few different choices in a previous map.

I have a hard time believing you're complaining because the hard difficulty was too hard for you your first time through.

[Linky]

Hmmmm . . . I would say you should either have started on normal and changed to hard when you had some actual experience with the campaigns, or kept backups in the eventuality of messing up due to lack of experience. Either way, the fault's not with the campaign designer, since we have another person who beat it by making a few different choices in a previous map.

I now lowered the difficulty level to normal and still have a *very* tough time finishing this map. You see, it doesn't make sense that the ultimate ability route is so much worse with the Warlocks than it is with the other races. I guess it boils down to faction balance in the end.
I still maintain my opinion that if you have capped your carry-on heroes in the previous map, you should at least stand a chance. This map simply was impossible on hard with my characters. I'm really meaning impossible, in a way that even the best heroes player alive could've not done it.

The fact that a few obviously very good players are able to finish a map doesn't mean that it's designed well if most others can't beat it. Even as Nebs was able to finish it doesn't prove that the map has been designed well. I'm curious to hear what other players have to say for this map once they get there.

By the way, I do have backups of the previous saves all the way down to the Haven campaign. Doesn't mean that I'm willing to replay 10 hours of gameplay just to have another go at this map. This game is ok fun, but not fun in a way that I'd replay any of the stages ever again.

[asandir]

can i throw this in the ring??

perhaps levelling towards the ultimate skill is one way to go, but it may not match the requirements of all maps/campaigns, this is a strategy game and as such there are other paths to consider, maybe taking one hero down that path and trying something different with the second hero allows for a more flexible approach .... this is why the game is a turn based strategy game

consider other options besides the most obvious one

[DaemianLucifer]

I don't really like the initiative thingy. Having some creatures act 2 or 3 times while another acts only once is just annoying. Especialy since you can steal retal the first timne and then attack again.

Thats why we need a different retaliation system.Havin some unit act 3 or 4 times while a slow one acts just ones makes perfect sense to me.And it forces you to make different tactical decisions then just:wait,walk near,attack.

[Linky]

can i throw this in the ring??

perhaps levelling towards the ultimate skill is one way to go, but it may not match the requirements of all maps/campaigns, this is a strategy game and as such there are other paths to consider, maybe taking one hero down that path and trying something different with the second hero allows for a more flexible approach .... this is why the game is a turn based strategy game

consider other options besides the most obvious one

I agree that there naturally are other more efficient ways to level up than the ultimate ability, but considering that the other races became very strong just by following the ultimate ability route. This paired with the fact that the Warlock ultimate ability is quite frankly pants makes their heroes the most underwhelming.