HOMM3 Stronghold: Tips on Using Cyclops?

[marmot]

I really enjoy using these units, but it seems my poor economy skills often mean I don't have the gold to recruit them enough or resources to upgrade them for a long time.
Does anyone have some tips on how to set up a Stronghold economy that can acquire Cyclopses fairly early, and also how to sustain their recruitment (if necessary, even focusing on them over most mid-level units)?

[Pol]

The problem here is to build a dwelling for Cyclops, once done you usually can leave it accumulating and use as needed. In late game you should be able to form from them a considerable force. In the beginning you usually have some small groups to support town siege. However the Behemots have a clear precedency here. - You need them more.

If you have Fort Hill nearby, upgrade here.

Sustainable? Heh, you need to acquire Crystal & Gold mine. :p

But you need them anyway, if there's sea make a voyage to collect wood and put someone fast to collect ore on the surface.

BTW You shouldn't have problems with them on my map.

[marmot]

Thanks, so would you have any suggestions for opening moves as a Stronghold player to try and get things going toward Cyclops production?

In the first week or so I usually hire an extra hero and start scouting around for crystal, and usually build town hall, mage guild, market, and then orc and ogre buildings to give me some decent early-game troops and fill the requirements for a Cyclops cave. Problem is I start running out of gold from recruiting other troops while waiting for enough crystal to build Cyclops cave, and either it takes me ages to get the 20 crystal, or by the time I have enough I don't always have the cash to hire them.

It's not practical to buy crystal due to the huge market prices. Sometimes I try selling other resources (like sulphur or mercury) to get the cash, but then I'm limited in resources for upgrading my mage guild (I usually play as a Battle Mage character so I need those extra spells to help out my weaker early-game troops)...

[Pol]

Thanks, so would you have any suggestions for opening moves as a Stronghold player to try and get things going toward Cyclops production?

Explore, you need to accumulate resources fast, use goblins, rocs and wolf riders.

Well consider if you need Cyclops Cave or you can skip it over - depends on map type and style.

In the first week or so I usually hire an extra hero and start scouting around for crystal, and usually build town hall, mage guild, market, and then orc and ogre buildings to give me some decent early-game troops and fill the requirements for a Cyclops cave. Problem is I start running out of gold from recruiting other troops while waiting for enough crystal to build Cyclops cave, and either it takes me ages to get the 20 crystal, or by the time I have enough I don't always have the cash to hire them

Orcs are nice, ogres are slow. Ogres are another unit, best for defensive, ie for accumulation. You build theirs dwelling but don't buy. However Rocs are essentials!

It's not practical to buy crystal due to the huge market prices. Sometimes I try selling other resources (like sulphur or mercury) to get the cash, but then I'm limited in resources for upgrading my mage guild (I usually play as a Battle Mage character so I need those extra spells to help out my weaker early-game troops)...

Hmm, these are harder. Barbarians are easy way to go. Otherwise Terek, Gundula or Zubin.

Again, get resources from cashes or piles. Buying them you can, but in the beginning it's only a few units if it's a must. Situation is changed if you have marketplace close by. Any free marketplace have power of five towns. Having it, it's nice unfair advantege.

As a last you know that heroic dilema, gold or experience? Keep balance, gold is gold - in beginning take it often, for your army, for your town. Battles will come in no time.

Don't underestimate Estate or Learning, in beginning they can be a great help. Plan skills for your heroes, usually you have two to have it covered. Both need to be fast.

[marmot]

Cheers, that sounds like some solid advice. Yeah I think one of the problems I was running in to was going for experience in chests rather than gold. I kept thinking "well, I need to beef this guy up quickly to win early battles and expand territory", but now from what you've said I think going more for gold will help build up that bigger early-game army that can get me experience anyway...

I usually play Terek, I like his starting tactics ability and the haste spell is quite useful for Stronghold troops, which are fairly slow. I've heard everyone raving about Crag Hack as a good starting hero. Haven't really tried him yet...

As far as what you said about Ogres, I've been trying to rely on them as a main part of my army just because they're so strong, and combined with the haste spell they can make good attacking troops (particularly if you can get enough early on against early-game enemy armies). But, they can get a bit expensive after upgrading to Ogre Magi, so maybe I should hold off on that until my economy's more built up.

I haven't been using Rocs as much, mostly because I prefer to save up for Orges and Cyclopses. Maybe I should reconsider that a bit...

[cjlee]

OK, those who have seen my post history should know that I am normally quite happy to help people or share experiences about this game. However, at the risk of sounding unfriendly, I strongly advise people not to give Marmot tips in this regard.

I think this thread has gotten very wrong, and want to articulate my views. Looking at Marmot’s history (joined 2 days ago) and his comments, it is obvious that he is very, very noob.

Pol’s helping is well intentioned, but not really helping. The assumptions it accepts are just wrong.

Truth is, Marmot needs to get more experience. This is a game with a steep learning curve. There is no getting around that curve. It is better to play the unfriendly sensei, and let Marmot struggle and humiliate himself and get beaten up by AI 40x, just so that he will build up his experience and get a better feel for what this game is about.

Marmot: no matter how much you like cyclopses, the fact is that they are very expensive and require a resource that most people find very hard to get. That is intentional. It’s a game balancing mechanism.

Heroes III’s makers are highly respected. They created a great AI. They knew what they were doing. That’s why some races find it easier to get higher tier creatures early. EG Fortress can get Wyvern and Barbarian can get Behemoth in week 1. At the same time the gamemakers deliberately made it much harder to get certain creatures that are lower level than Wyvern and Behemoth – eg I rarely can get Gorgon Lair or Cyclops cave before Week 3. Wyvern and Behemoth will get killed in normal battles, so they won’t be accumulating too much. For the sake of balance they don’t want you to accumulate too many cyclopses or gorgons, so they make it very hard for you to get them early.

I respect Pol a lot but you should disregard his advice. When you play more maps you will understand that you cannot stick to a Cyclops strategy for the opening gameplay. Many factors in Heroes are randomized and there are a good many mapmakers who have their idiosyncratic styles. In order to survive you have to play to whatever each map gives you.

For example, some maps start you off with your most important resource deliberately blocked off by quest barriers. Or your crystal cavern is randomly placed very far away from your castle, and you have no idea where it is because of the fog of war. Looking for crystals is not always a good idea, because if you randomly start on snow or swamp terrain, every movement point is very precious. Or the resource randomizing allows you to pick up piles of crystal near your base easily. Or there is a marketplace nearby guarded by only peasants or zombies. All of these will dictate whether or not you can shoot for cyclops early.

If you play on Easy and pick up a few crystals, without a crystal mine you can still get cyclops early.

If your crystal mine is guarded by Evil Eyes or Medusa Queens, but there is an unguarded workshop (for buying war machines) or a refugee camp (for possible high level hires) next to your castle, it is obvious that you should go for Behemoth with war machine support. Sticking to your cyclops strategy will get your entire army massacred by the range attackers.

On some other maps, you may find gold to be in shortage. Then it is easier to go for Thunderbirds with massed lower tiers supporting. This strategy won’t keep you going through the entire game, but it allows you to rush enemy castles. You will have to use this strategy if map is so poor in crystals that you can’t build behemoth or cyclops dwelling. Sometimes I go an entire map without hiring a single behemoth or cyclops, because I go for birds early then keep attacking the enemy and keep using the latest troop hires from their castle.

If you take a few minutes to read the walkthroughs for ultra difficult maps like The Way Home or Wayfarer, you will notice that the experts are not afraid to totally change their strategies. Sometimes they dismiss Titans to make room for Diamond Golems. Sometimes they sacrifice huge stacks of Zealots to resurrect a few Archdevils or Archmagi. Sometimes they will travel for a week just to get a single ammo cart from a heavily guarded shop, but won’t step one square off the main road to pick up 2000 gold. Sometimes they put their most powerful hero in the garrison and get a weak spellcaster who has a single spell that they need most.

In Heroes of Might and Magic, YOU are the guy in charge. Don’t be too attached to any single strategy. Even if you can mass cyclopses early doesn’t mean you should field them all the time. When facing a powerful enemy spellcaster, Cyclopses attract lightning like a lightning rod. You might find it easier to go to war with behemoth and ogre magi instead.

Finally, don’t be attached to any resource-picking strategy. It is generally preferred by the good players to take experience from chests, but when you are 500 gold short of a Behemoth dwelling, it is obvious what you should take. If the neutral stacks nearby are easy to kill, you can take gold from chests and kill neutrals for experience – but if neutrals are hard to kill you may find it better to take xp from chests. Your first 7000 xp really counts, because that lets you level up several times and may mean the difference between no skill and expert skill. But by level 20 I don’t even bother to detour to pick up chests anymore – I’ll leave that to a squire and let him level instead.

[marmot]

Well, I respect your opinions and thanks for taking the time to reply. But I don't see why me being a "noob" should stand in the way of others being able to give me advice on my question. Obviously I'm not looking to become an expert player who can clear the field in a tournament or whatever. This is just something I am coming back to after years for a bit of fun. I never play above the second difficulty level (the one marked by a Knight) and I've found, in my recent playtime, that Cyclopses have worked quite well for me and I was wondering if there were any general tips on planning out an economy that could help gather them.

I realise that no two maps are the same and strategies are going to have to differ (particularly in this case depending on where the crystal is) but that doesn't mean I couldn't benefit at least from some general tips on opening moves as a Stronghold player, which Pol so far has been kind enough to suggest a few. A quick Youtube search has turned up a few playthroughs with people going for more or less the same beginning moves (e.g. building up to Rocs early on), so I thought maybe there was something I could do in the first week or two that might make it easier to build up to Cyclops production.

[Pol]

@cjlee
It seems that I don't understand your outburst at all. Looks like some father's principle. Or you are trying explaing something generic, please explain yourself more clearly?

Undisscutable the main reasons of fan forums is to help people with advices and share the knowledge and also build upon that foundation. Help developers and moders and form and support communities.

There your first come saying that it's not a good idea to give advice to new players and second you beat it up by starting to give quite advanced advices yourself. Mentioning "The Way Home" or "Wayfarer" is certainly not a good idea either, as he's is new player. It may sounds wise but rather is not.

People learn by many ways, there's not one, the same one, way for all of them. And any advice is not a dogma, neither strategem. Even strategem is not. Naturally different situations lead you to different solutions. But that's hardly a reason why not to give an advice. You need to form starting position, later it's not so important as you will get your own view on the matter. But it (advice) may be important for you to start.

@marmot
Many adventures are awaiting you...

(That's part of one of M&M prologues.)

I had also period when I was fascinated by Cyclops, these Siege Monsters are hard to deploy but they can cause devastating effects. Perhaps you should connect them with Yog, fast high leveled Yog is the best hero for them - as they are his speciality. (And archery and Ballistic and some old bow or just his parts.)

However overall you may often notice yourself, that you are jumping over them. Due to their cost and fragility.

When you will be feeling sure, you may try to play with them ont my map. It's definitively possible, although it's much better on allied version and I don't remember which one I linked to you.

This guide you may find very useful.

[marmot]

Thanks Pol. Yep there has definitely been a game or two where I had to skip over Cyclopses because of the cost/situation of my economy. As you say though they can have great benefits particularly during a siege, and I'm trying at the moment to practice with them a bit on easier scenarios so I can get a feel for how to use them.

One thing I noticed is that Zubin can be useful with them once he's leveled up a bit, since his precision ability makes their ranged attacks more effective. I also recently tried Crag Hack with them, and my goodness his offense ability makes them lethal

Haven't tried Yog yet. Doesn't his specialty with them have to be leveled up first before it starts counting, or do they perform better with him from level 1?

Regarding your map, you linked me the allied version, which is great as I like having someone on my side. By the way, what's the "360g" mean on the title of the scenario?

[cjlee]

For some things, you need to do in practice before you read the theory. Only when you have played and seen enough maps of all kinds and sizes, do you have a feel for the possibilities of any map.

Sure, by all means collect all the tips and strategies you want. There’s nothing stopping you from spending a few weeks reading the very abundant resources available on Heroes-related gaming sites. But you need to put in the hours first. Only when you have this experience, can you apply any tips and suggestions intelligently.

If people tell you to do X to further your desired strategy, and you try X on every map, you will probably find that X is a disaster 1/3 of the time, barely working 1/3 of the time and successful only 1/3 of the time. That's because you still need the experience before you can decide whether it is wise to apply X on a particular map.

Other experienced players will have their own take, but I think when playing barbarian there are 3 major types of approaches: resource rich, resource ok, and resource poor. Rich is good for cyclopses. OK is good for behemoths. Poor is for thunderbirds with mass lower tier.

Cyclopses are actually my favorite Stronghold unit, but I’ve played maps before where I could not get cyclopses within the first two months. You start on Impossible, then find that the mapmaker has disabled marketplace and deprived you of a crystal mine, and you’ll have to try alternate strategies.

Experienced mapmakers will never let you accumulate powerful ranged attackers like cyclops because that leads to a steamroll problem in late game where you win everything too easily. If they force you to go Thunderbirds+ mass lower tier, they know you will sustain substantial losses along the way, thus preventing the endgame from being too boring.

Being too attached to a favorite strategy won’t help you win many Heroes maps, because the game is so complex that any mapmaker has many ways to disrupt your preferred gaming style. I’ve even played battles where mass golem was better than ranged titan. (If you don’t field titans sometimes the spellpower 30 AI will refrain from using damaging spells, and switch to protection from air or something much less lethal. But if you field Cyclopses and the AI has a damaging spell in its spellbook, you will always get whacked.)

[wimfrits]

@marmot: Terek with Tactics + haste is a great way to start.
And as cjlee was pointing out, if you want to learn to play Stronghold.. forget about cyclopses
(at least for the first part of the game)

[marmot]

Cyclopses are actually my favorite Stronghold unit, but I’ve played maps before where I could not get cyclopses within the first two months. You start on Impossible, then find that the mapmaker has disabled marketplace and deprived you of a crystal mine, and you’ll have to try alternate strategies.

Fortunately I haven't played any maps with this kind of setup. Selling off extra resources to get gold for troops is a big part of my strategy, so a map with the market disabled wouldn't be for me. As for starting on Impossible difficulty, forget it.

But if you field Cyclopses and the AI has a damaging spell in its spellbook, you will always get whacked.)

Maybe it's the difficulty level I play on (the second one), but I actually find that enemies tend to focus more of their attacks on my weakest units, usually Goblins, Wolf Raiders, or Orcs. Though this may be because I send the former two out far ahead to act as cannon fodder. My Cyclopses usually hang back at the rear and use their ranged attacks, and since I go for ammo cart early on they can keep doing this indefinitely.

@marmot: Terek with Tactics + haste is a great way to start.

Glad to see I made a good decision there.

And as cjlee was pointing out, if you want to learn to play Stronghold.. forget about cyclopses
(at least for the first part of the game)

Well, the scenario I'm currently playing (Buried Treasure, as green) I managed to get the cave built within the first few weeks. I had my main hero out scouting the other islands for resources while a second hung around the castle for defence. I held off upgrading the cave to keep costs down, and once I had about 10-15 Cyclopses gathered it was a lot easier to wipe out the creatures and AI scouts around the resources (I could whittle them down with ranged attacks before they could reach me to attack). That in turn meant I got more resources to recruit other creatures with (like Ogre Magi and Behemoths). So I'm not giving up on Cyclopses quite yet.