Heroes IV Scenario Question

[ankh]

Hi all,

I'm new to Heroes, and recently bought Heroes IV. I patched it up to 3.0 and today tried the scenario "Escape from Biggun's Playground."

I am a little confused about the choice of skills when my hero levels up.

This scenario always starts you with an Order Mage hero. After reading the manual, I decided I'd like to try to turn my hero into a shadow mage. This requires specializing in Death Magic in addition to the Order Magic he starts with.

Well, I went into the starting town and built the University, and was lucky enough to have it offer Basic Death Magic. So I learned that. When I leveled up the first time, however, I was offered an upgrade to Order Magic, Enchantment (a secondary skill to Order Magic) and Basic Combat.

I took Basic Combat.

When I leveled up the second time, I was offered secondary skills in Order Magic and Combat. So I took another Order Magic.

And so it went.... well, I am now level 15 and NOT ONE TIME was I ever offered a secondary skill in Death Magic, so I was unable to specialize and become a shadow mage. Somewhere along the line, I found a hut or something teaching nobility, so I took that, too.

However, I have never been offered anything other than Order Magic or Combat upon leveling up.

My question is... what is going on? Isn't level up supposed to offer you a random mix of skills based on what you already know? That's what the tutorial map seemed to do.

Why did I get offered Basic Combat out of the blue? Why has it never offered anything else but those two skills?

I even tried starting a new game with that scenario, and I built the University right away with the starting gold, and picked Death Magic and Nobility. Then I exited the town and grabbed the chest of gold right outside and used it to level up right away. This time, Basic Necromancy was offered, along with two order skills. No nobility skills. To test it, I took an order skill.

Then I leveled up again and this time, basic combat was offered again, along with 2 order skills. I leveled up twice more just to try it out, and again, both times all I was offered was basic combat and 2 order skills.

Am I misunderstanding how the game works? Or is it possibly that this particular scenario just really wants you to be a Battle Mage (Order + Combat)? Are the other scenarios also class-specific?

Please enlighten me.

[Gaidal Cain]

The game is supposed to offer combat about every other level up. This is since Combat was found so vital to the hero's survivability that NWC figured that a hero had to have it to stand a chance. The problem is that it's in fact offered every level up beyond the first (as you noted, you could become a shadow mage with your very first level up if you already had basic death). This means that if you play anything but Barbarian or Archer (who starts with combat), you'll have to find a way to learn two skills externally if you want a non-combat advanced class.

[Bandobras Took]

Once you start down the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny . . .

Wait. Wrong forum.

Anyway, your big mistake was in choosing that initial combat. Once you get yourself locked into an advanced class, you should get skill choices for those classes, but woe betide the hero who takes combat. I think you're even more likely to get after your initial plunge.

"Just this one time won't hurt! I can quit any time I want!"

[Gaidal Cain]

No, he didn't turn into a battlemage- just a Mage that was offered advanced combat every levelup...

[ankh]

The game is supposed to offer combat about every other level up. This is since Combat was found so vital to the hero's survivability that NWC figured that a hero had to have it to stand a chance. The problem is that it's in fact offered every level up beyond the first (as you noted, you could become a shadow mage with your very first level up if you already had basic death). This means that if you play anything but Barbarian or Archer (who starts with combat), you'll have to find a way to learn two skills externally if you want a non-combat advanced class.

That's disappointing. If the scenario map doesn't offer a way to gain those other skills, then you're pretty much stuck? I've continued to play the scenario, and I've captured a Chaos town, and a Life town, and found no building akin to the University where I could buy other skills. It wouldn't be so bad if Combat were offered every level up, as long as there was a good mix offered in the other two slots. But I'm getting nothing but 2 order + 1 combat, every level up. Very boring.

And speaking of the University, it claims to sell the secondary skills, but if you don't have the basic one first, then it sells you that one, then refuses to let you purchase the secondary one afterwards. Hmph.

Do the other towns have any buildings to sell skills that I missed?

[DaemianLucifer]

First,wellcome to the forums.

That's disappointing. If the scenario map doesn't offer a way to gain those other skills, then you're pretty much stuck? I've continued to play the scenario, and I've captured a Chaos town, and a Life town, and found no building akin to the University where I could buy other skills. It wouldn't be so bad if Combat were offered every level up, as long as there was a good mix offered in the other two slots. But I'm getting nothing but 2 order + 1 combat, every level up. Very boring.

Well,youll find that combat can be a very good skill indeed.And,as GC said,it is vital if your hero wants to live.Not so against AI though,but still it is important to have it in every game.

And speaking of the University, it claims to sell the secondary skills, but if you don't have the basic one first, then it sells you that one, then refuses to let you purchase the secondary one afterwards. Hmph.

Yes,if you dont have the apropriate primary skill,you will learn it istead of the secondary skill.And it would be unfair if you could earn the secondary skill after that.That would mean that youd learn two skills,while someone who had the primary skill could learn just one.

Do the other towns have any buildings to sell skills that I missed?

Heaven has the seminary building that allows you to purchase secondary skills.

[ankh]

First,wellcome to the forums.

Thank you!

Yes,if you dont have the apropriate primary skill,you will learn it istead of the secondary skill.And it would be unfair if you could earn the secondary skill after that.That would mean that youd learn two skills,while someone who had the primary skill could learn just one.

Well, that could have been balanced by the fact that you are paying for the skill. Raise the cost or something and it wouldn't be unfair. The building should teach more than 4 skills anyhow.

[pepak]

Well, that could have been balanced by the fact that you are paying for the skill. Raise the cost or something and it wouldn't be unfair. The building should teach more than 4 skills anyhow.

That would not be balanced at all. In a typical game, gold and resources become pretty much insignificant after the first two or three weeks. The extra skill to learn would be a HUGE advantage, no matter how much it would cost.

[ThunderTitan]

Well, that could have been balanced by the fact that you are paying for the skill. Raise the cost or something and it wouldn't be unfair. The building should teach more than 4 skills anyhow.

You could always wait to get the primary skill from somewhere else, and then you can learn the secondary skill from the University.

And as not all the towns have a skill-giving building ur suggestion would be very unbalancing.

[DaemianLucifer]

Since getting a primary skill is much harder then getting the secondary one,its much better to purchase the primary skill,and to get the secondary one when you level up.

Btw,I think equilibris fixes the chances for the skills that are offered when you level up.Am I right?

[Kalah]

@ ankh:

The fact that you are almost always offered combat skills, and thus led into Combat+Other advanced classes, is one of the well-known shortcomings of this game, unfortunately. You actually have to put in quite a bit of work to gain the more attractive ones early in a scenario, and even then you need a bit of luck.
I usually do end up having a Combat-associated advanced class, but as the scenario progresses I am able to choose more and more other skills, and eventually the adv.class changes.

There's really no way to snap your fingers and avoid this issue; Combat is a skill you have to have, and once you do, the game somehow assumes that you desperately want more of it. One thing you can do, is to avoid the Combat secondary skills, such as Melee and Archery. Magic resistance is a good one, however, so don't hesitate if that happens to pop up.

[ThunderTitan]

Since getting a primary skill is much harder then getting the secondary one,its much better to purchase the primary skill,and to get the secondary one when you level up.

Don't even get me started on how many times the bloody game wouldn't give me that one secondary skill that I wanted. Remember, in order to get a bigger chance to get secondary skills you need to have a certain class, and if you only have 1 skill in that certain type it doesn't normaly offer it to you.

That's why you should scout the map first for skill shrines and stuff.

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes,some advanced classes are so hard to begin.But once you start them,you can level them up easily

[ThunderTitan]

And that's when my example helps. It's all relative...

[Gaidal Cain]

That's disappointing. If the scenario map doesn't offer a way to gain those other skills, then you're pretty much stuck? I've continued to play the scenario, and I've captured a Chaos town, and a Life town, and found no building akin to the University where I could buy other skills. It wouldn't be so bad if Combat were offered every level up, as long as there was a good mix offered in the other two slots. But I'm getting nothing but 2 order + 1 combat, every level up. Very boring.

Well, one thing that you could have done was to make sure there would only be one Order skill that you could get at level up. Then the game would choose a second skill among the other you had for you to learn, and with some luck, it could have been a necromancy one...

And speaking of the University, it claims to sell the secondary skills, but if you don't have the basic one first, then it sells you that one, then refuses to let you purchase the secondary one afterwards. Hmph.

Well, I think you've gotten your answer on this one. But note also that it works for other skills. If it would normally have offered Wizardry and you only have basic Order magic, you could have bought advanced Order...

Do the other towns have any buildings to sell skills that I missed?

Haven has the seminary, but it doesn't sell Death Skills. Beyond that, you'd have to find suitable map buildings that can give magic schools.

[Kalah]

@ ankh:

also, in case you haven't seen it yet, here's our collection of great maps.

[ankh]

That's disappointing. If the scenario map doesn't offer a way to gain those other skills, then you're pretty much stuck? I've continued to play the scenario, and I've captured a Chaos town, and a Life town, and found no building akin to the University where I could buy other skills. It wouldn't be so bad if Combat were offered every level up, as long as there was a good mix offered in the other two slots. But I'm getting nothing but 2 order + 1 combat, every level up. Very boring.

Well, one thing that you could have done was to make sure there would only be one Order skill that you could get at level up. Then the game would choose a second skill among the other you had for you to learn, and with some luck, it could have been a necromancy one...

Well, I finally finished the scenario this morning. Now that I've seen the ending, I've no doubt the designer of the map intended you to grow through all the Order skills. The combat skills, probably unavoidable, since there were no other skill places anywhere I could find. Unless that, too, is random. I don't know, I'm too new. I finally broke down and took advanced combat, and the very next level up, I was offered Basic Occultism. I took that, hoping it would mean more death skills offered later, but no, every level up until the end of the map was again combat. I didn't know you could change your advanced class, either, so thank you for telling me that. With regard to balancing, I had no idea that gold was going to be a non-issue near the end of the map. Is that true for all maps?

Also, Gaidal Cain, what did you mean by "make sure there was only one order skill I could get at level up?" When the scenario starts, you have basic order magic, and one of the secondaries, randomly I think. So right from the get go, of the 3 offered skills on level up, 2 were always order. The third one was always combat, beginning with about the 3rd level up. Was there some other way to go about this?

Also, thank you for pointing me to the maps page, Kalah--wow, there are a lot there.

One last question-- when I got to the end of the scenario, I found a level 20 hero who was a fireguard (chaos and combat). I had a few medusas in my army, and on one of their turns when I didn't have anything better to shoot at, I had them shoot at the level 20 hero. They didn't do much damage directly, but they turned him to stone and he died instantly! I thought maybe it was just a fluke, so I replayed the battle and it happened again. The description of the medusas says that there is a chance the target may be turned to stone, depending on level. I wasn't sure if this was something that magic resistance could prevent or not, but it seemed pretty devastating.

[DaemianLucifer]

With regard to balancing, I had no idea that gold was going to be a non-issue near the end of the map. Is that true for all maps?

That depends.On most premade maps,money will never be a problem.But on fan made maps,youll have to invest very wisely.

Also, Gaidal Cain, what did you mean by "make sure there was only one order skill I could get at level up?" When the scenario starts, you have basic order magic, and one of the secondaries, randomly I think. So right from the get go, of the 3 offered skills on level up, 2 were always order. The third one was always combat, beginning with about the 3rd level up. Was there some other way to go about this?

If you check a skills description,it says what skills it leads to.Every skill,both primary and secundary,has a prerequest.So it is posible to make one skill branch to ofer you only one skill for level up.For example:With basic death magic and advanced necromancy you can only get ocultism when you level up.

One last question-- when I got to the end of the scenario, I found a level 20 hero who was a fireguard (chaos and combat). I had a few medusas in my army, and on one of their turns when I didn't have anything better to shoot at, I had them shoot at the level 20 hero. They didn't do much damage directly, but they turned him to stone and he died instantly! I thought maybe it was just a fluke, so I replayed the battle and it happened again. The description of the medusas says that there is a chance the target may be turned to stone, depending on level. I wasn't sure if this was something that magic resistance could prevent or not, but it seemed pretty devastating.

Yes,medusas have a very powerful specialty.Most of the specials depend on the number of creatures you have,and the level of the defender.