Heroes Combat System

[mr.hackcrag]

A major disappointment for me is that recent HoMM combat systems are outdated and have not been built upon in the past decade. H5, H6, and Online all have virtually identical combat systems.

When I compare HoMM combat with strategy RPG games I've played on consoles, I can imagine so many interesting combat mechanics that can be added to HoMM to make it fresh and dynamic, but as can be seen with every recent Heroes release, the developers are living in the past and lack creativity + vision to positively move the series forward.

I think the first thing they should do is implement TT's counter system idea.

What do you guys think about HoMM battles?

[Romanov77]

Heroes4 combat mechanics could have huge potential if refined.

[hellegennes]

Could you elaborate? And please don't use abbreviations. What is TT and what is the thing you're referring to?

[mr.hackcrag]

TT is a lovable eastern spam-bot who lost the will to spam. A long time ago when there was excitement and hope for future HoMM games (instead of one soul-crushing calamity after another) people brainstromed ideas they would like to see in game. He explains this better than me, but instead of units counter-attacking once per turn, he suggested (in much more detail than this post) that each unit have a counter cooldown so units would retaliate in different ways against different units.

[Kalah]

(TT = ThunderTitan)

[hellegennes]

Omg! I thought you were talking about a game.

I have to say, though, that H6 developers took a lot of liberties, though most have not been received well. It makes no sense to accuse them of not trying original things, especially if you have no idea how the community would react to changes in combat. Do you remember how combat changes in HoMM IV were received by the gamers?

[mr.hackcrag]

I'm wondering why, of all threads, this one got almost 1800 views in one day, but no one cares. Oh well, sorry for apparently getting peoples expectations high, but wasting thread space.

[wimfrits]

I'm wondering why, of all threads, this one got almost 1800 views in one day

The use of 3 words attracting the male psyche

[Kalah]

Do you remember how combat changes in HoMM IV were received by the gamers?

I seem to recall huge debate surrounding the question of using heroes on the battlefield. It split the community in two camps, those who loved it and those who hated it. I don't think there was ever a "winning side" in this discussion, but the ability of having a Grandmaster Combat with tons of Immortality potions was pointed out as being overpowered. Still, the change was seen as something exciting and new by many.

[hellegennes]

Sure. I was thrilled by almost all the changes NWC introduced with H4. But, yes, most of these split the fanbase and that's what I'm talking about. Changes, especially in combat, tend to create debates. The one major thing H5 introduced in combat was initiative, which I remember very well had fired up an intense debate.

Heroes in battlefield was not the only change in terms of combat strategics. Heroless combat, simultaneous retaliation, ranged retaliation and multiple heroes or armyless heroes were totally new things. These were all features which changed combat dramatically (especially the simultaneous retaliaton thing). Nevertheless, they were received well or even enthusiastically by half of the fanbase, while the other half hated the changes.

[mr.hackcrag]

I just don't think aspect of the game should remain static for, so far, three consecutive releases, especially when it's almost the same as H3.

[Dalai]

Heroes4 combat mechanics could have huge potential if refined.

That!

One can work on line-of-sight concept, magic types concept [magic directed at heroes and creatures (slow, lightning), at physical objects on battlefield (wall of fire, quicksand), at spells already cast in battle (dispel, exorcism)]. One can invent other modes than "move", "attack", "defend", like "guard this friendly stack", "block this enemy shooter".

A lot of work can be done with quantifying magic ("hypnotize" in H3 was a failed example of it), with the concept of spells and counter-spells, same as units and counter-units.

There is no lack of ideas, really. It's more about target audience, goals and priorities for Ubi.

The use of 3 words attracting the male psyche

[Duzeom_]

The worst idea in new Heroes was a square combat field. It ruined everything for me. I wonder why they didn't pursue the "linear" combat field from H4. I think it was great idea and would work in Ubi's Hereos with nice 3D models.

[mr.hackcrag]

One of the things that has always irked me the wrong way was splitting stacks so 1 unit used up a retaliation or blocked a ranged unit or cast an enchantment spell. These kind of exploits end up wildly swinging the results of a battle and a different system should be in place to prevent it.

[parcaleste]

I'm curious to what happened with the idea of having dynamic battlefields: a seashore battle, the water rushes to a part of battlefield and slows/pushes/draw the battle units, a wind blows and pushes the "lonely" units on the battlefield square or two aside, geysers erupt, tree falls after a ~fireball has been cast near it, breakable rocks, etc. etc. In Disciples III, for example, you can use energy spots to put your magic units on them, a high spots for your shooters and focus spots for your melees to boost their damage. In King's Bounty we have different shrines (bless, curse, fireball, etc.), bee hives, different type of barriers, barricades... It is not something unseen, but it gives some sort of diversity. Why not implement some building (tower, bunker) that can be use for some advantage or you need to protect. If one sit there and think for 10 more minutes, 10 000 more ideas like that can occur.

[Dalai]

mr.hackcrag
There is nothing wrong with stacks of 1 low-level unit taking retaliation or blocking shooter. It may seem too low a price for for end result, but you must consider wasting a precious resource - stack in the army.

As for summons, animations and illusions - they can be easily balanced by spell price in mana and ease of access to corresponding spells.

parcaleste
Too dynamic for my taste. Just changing shape occasionally (like bridge in H4, or new King's Bounty series) would be good.

[mr.hackcrag]

I've abused the hell out of it early game with creeping neutrals and defending sieges against superior armies and I find something wrong with it.

[Dalai]

Then the whole idea of stacks is wrong, because it's part of it.

Don't you find a little unfair when your 10 titans spend their entire attack on some 20 dwarves, when you know that 2 of them can do the job just as good? Shouldn't other 8 be able to shoot some other target?

In just couple steps we will come to the "Total War" series combat system