Nothing serious, today I just have some random strategic ideas in my mind. Answers to my questions would be great but discussion would be better:
1) So people say that shieldguards are pretty useful lvl 1 creatures because they are numerous and sturdy. Many also feel that zombies are worthless because they are slow, don't deal much damage and don't have much abilities. People just throw the zombies into danger, absorb retaliations and don't really care if they're bashed left and right. Well, what I find strange is why both shieldguards and unupgraded zombies are both worth 40 gold each, but zombies have 5 hp more. That's 2.37 gold per hp; not many creatures can beat that even after taking defense skill into account. Talk about the ultimate tank!
2) Deleb is banned in many friendly games and tournaments because of her blazing creeping (pun intended) which leads to a snowball effect cumulating to a powerful rush possibly by week 3 or even end of week 2. What I don't understand is why people do not also ban the use of Kasper, which for the first 2 weeks gives almost as much damage power, but to single stacks. Sure there are only 3 shots but those shots can also heal as well. Both can give you some crazy creeping power.
3) When people talk about fighting against Dungeons, many forum posts talk about taking out blood furies first thing because they are damaging if left alone, but easy to take out because they are so flimsy and there are so few of them. My question is why Dungeon players online even bother recruiting them and sending them against their friends in pitched battles. Against other magic users it becomes a blasting match and against might users you want as much meat and defense as possible so you have time to empty your mana pool. Your creatures deal good damage individually but only if they survive the enemy's charge or magic. Since we all have limited money, why not leave them and the shadow matriachs at home, (except a couple, which you split up to cast spells) and just hire the minotaurs, hydras, dragons? Heck, even forget the stalkers because you use them for hit-and-run, and if you think your opponant has dark magic, don't even send the riders in! If you got spare cash, buy artifacts.
4) More about hit-and-run: if you are Haven, is it worth it to try to catch them using archers and their scatter shot? If you have Maeve and mass haste, how many archers would you need? What about imperial griffins? (heck, now that I think about it, what if imperial griffins are in the hands of the warlocks?)
5) Speaking of imperial griffins, is it really equally likely that they will land on any empty tile after they are done? Because I am trying to work out the odds of them landing in a bad spot in a siege. Landing on the enemy castle's moat? The wrong side of the castle (as in, proceeding to get pounded?) Would they be able to fly up again quickly if they had haste and divine guidence? And curiously, if there's a lot of gating, summoning and phantom forces on the battlefield, what would happen if THERE IS NO SPACE FOR THEM TO LAND?! Would the game crash?
6) It's widely agreed that Corrupted soil is kinda pathetic, only 3*herolevel damage to each creature moving and shit. I want a rough mathematical calculation: about how much damage does it actually end up dealing in a typical battle? It might actually be worth 1 skill point if you are already using dark magic, considering that you don't have to do anything for it to work. It's a similar question with the mass decay spell: it spreads out damage but it does feel like a lot of damage overall, provided the battlefield is not so flat that the fight is too fast for that spell to really work its way.
7) When Heroes V first came out and I saw the enraged ability, my first reaction was that the designers really knew how the game works. Pick out shooters and casters first, then flyers, and... now the melee creatures are very dangerous. In reality, because its based on total power lost, and the attack skill bonus is capped at +10 (usually around +5 even in the end) it just doesn't seem to have much impact. At least for me, a +5 attack skill bonus won't stop me from taking out casters and shooters first. Am I missing something, or did it simply fail in its goal of adding strategic depth because its not really powerful enough?
8) The defense primary skill reduces melee damage by more than the increase in melee damage in the attack primary skill, which is again a sign that the designers know what they are doing. Curiously though, there is no such adjustment between the normal defense skill and attack skill. The math is simple, it's just that I have this nagging feeling that there's some logical gap in my chain of thought, some missing variable in my mental equation because I had some conceptual mis-understanding.
9) Someone (I think it was Elvin) mentioned that statistically, avenger will land you 1 or 2 favoured enemies that you could use in a final battle, if you bother to go back to town and then someone manage to force a fight with that enemy. A further question is this: provided all the stars aligned in the right way, how much expected (extra) damage and how much expected damage did you prevent with the 2-3 skill points invested? Its a similarly complicated question as corrupted soil.
Unusual strategic ideas (with math)
Re: Unusual strategic ideas (with math)
1) Shildguard is simply an outstanding lvl 1 unit. But it's part of the lineup's design, good lvl 1 melee, pathetic lvl 2 shooter etc. Can't compare units individually because the balance takes into account everything within the faction.
2) Week 2-3 maps are not balanced
Warmachine heroes, warlocks or generally destructive heroes like Nathir can dominate. Possible to use cold death against ballista though.
3) Furies can be nice to have but if opponent has high defense they won't have much of an impact. Then some split matriarchs for slow/confusion or furies to block a charge are a common strategy.
4) Archers? Stalkers go invisible, warlock casts a fireball, archers dead. Imperial griffins are too valuable to waste like that, besides you can only have 5 stacks of them. There is a reason hit&run is commonly banned, your best bet would be curse of netherworld I suppose.
5) No telling where griffins will land, totally random. With haste and morale their chances to act soon are of course better but you'd have to wait with them to do it or be lucky enough to act before them with swift mind. Unlikely though, high init. In any case it's up to timing, even if they move insanely fast at 20+ init the enemy may still get lucky to hit them before they dive. Not sure if there is no room, there used to be a bug in early heroes where they occupied the place of another unit - was pretty messy.
6) Corrupted soil isn't much though useful against last stand tactics, single blocking units, furies(they are hit when they attack and when they run back), phantom forces than have 1hp. I don't pick it often. Mass decay is awesome if you have warlock or necromancer and 20+ power. Add slippers and you've got a powerful weapon in your hands, especially if enemy units are hasted/have good morale. Hurts them every time they act.
7) Who cares, I'll take a bonus when it is offered Better than the unit having nothing, either way if the enraged unit is the last survivor it has a lovely bonus I think.
8) Umm what?
9) In a balanced map 2 favoured enemies are minimum, 3 is usual. Not sure if that's what you mean but avenger is outrageously effective, a killer.
2) Week 2-3 maps are not balanced
Warmachine heroes, warlocks or generally destructive heroes like Nathir can dominate. Possible to use cold death against ballista though.3) Furies can be nice to have but if opponent has high defense they won't have much of an impact. Then some split matriarchs for slow/confusion or furies to block a charge are a common strategy.
4) Archers? Stalkers go invisible, warlock casts a fireball, archers dead. Imperial griffins are too valuable to waste like that, besides you can only have 5 stacks of them. There is a reason hit&run is commonly banned, your best bet would be curse of netherworld I suppose.
5) No telling where griffins will land, totally random. With haste and morale their chances to act soon are of course better but you'd have to wait with them to do it or be lucky enough to act before them with swift mind. Unlikely though, high init. In any case it's up to timing, even if they move insanely fast at 20+ init the enemy may still get lucky to hit them before they dive. Not sure if there is no room, there used to be a bug in early heroes where they occupied the place of another unit - was pretty messy.
6) Corrupted soil isn't much though useful against last stand tactics, single blocking units, furies(they are hit when they attack and when they run back), phantom forces than have 1hp. I don't pick it often. Mass decay is awesome if you have warlock or necromancer and 20+ power. Add slippers and you've got a powerful weapon in your hands, especially if enemy units are hasted/have good morale. Hurts them every time they act.
7) Who cares, I'll take a bonus when it is offered
Better than the unit having nothing, either way if the enraged unit is the last survivor it has a lovely bonus I think.8) Umm what?
9) In a balanced map 2 favoured enemies are minimum, 3 is usual. Not sure if that's what you mean but avenger is outrageously effective, a killer.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron
- Metathron
1. Shieldguards are what they are, tanks. They do their job well but do essentially nothing else. Nothing more to be said, to be honest.
2. In my experience I've not found Deleb (or War Machine heroes) too hot at creeping; you're competing against another player who has his own array of tricks to play to creep after all. There are races can creep quite effectively without relying on the Ballista, although of course you'll still have an advantage (and a really large one vs. the races that can't creep well). The real value comes when you rush your opponent, nothing can be said about that - if the map allows for week 2/3 rushing then you have to prepare to defend against it.
3. Late-game fight vs. Dungeon = kill Black Dragons first, then the Raiders / Matriaches, then Blood Furies, then Hydras, then mop-up. The Furies aren't really that dangerous; they're very powerful early-game but late-game they get weaker since they are level 2 units after all. They're still decent targets since they do pack quite some damage for their level, but not priorities. I don't like the idea of neglecting some of your best units; your hero may be half your army in magic vs. magic slugfests, but that doesn't replace the need of actually having an army. You'll have a sizable stack of Blood Furies from early-game creeping anyway, and they're always useful to shield your Matriaches from charges (or to suicide and block enemy ranged units).
4. Depends on what's doing the hit-and-run - if it's a hero with faster units, then there's nothing you can do (like Elvin said, Stalkers will outspeed Archers and hence the hit-and-run goes off safely). Imperial Griffins are only going to work if you kill / force your opponent to flee in a turn, else they will have to land and die. Think Imperial Griffins going Battle Dive, then Stalkers moving a couple of squares.
5. No idea, although they can for certain land in bad spots (:().
6. Mass Decay is fine, Corrupted Soil isn't. I don't have any on-the-spot estimates for how much damage it'll do in a typical fight, but seems to me a battle will typically resolve itself into win and lose after 5 turns for the hero, so work from there.
7. Enraged has never been much of a factor in my games to be honest. Perhaps it's because the Zombies and Demons that get them are so weak ...
8. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd point out that there's a difference between attack and defense. It's entirely possible for example that in fights against neutrals you'll be doing more attacking than defending.
9. Avenger is extremely dangerous if you also manage to favour your opponents' most dangerous units. The damage can't be counted in pure numbers. Example: your Arcane Archers get a favoured enemy critical vs. enemy Champions, killing all of them. You've done more than deal damage, you've stopped the Champions from dealing damage. Champions are dangerous units, and such a lucky hit is well worth the 3 levels invested (you still have 2 more favoured enemies!).
2. In my experience I've not found Deleb (or War Machine heroes) too hot at creeping; you're competing against another player who has his own array of tricks to play to creep after all. There are races can creep quite effectively without relying on the Ballista, although of course you'll still have an advantage (and a really large one vs. the races that can't creep well). The real value comes when you rush your opponent, nothing can be said about that - if the map allows for week 2/3 rushing then you have to prepare to defend against it.
3. Late-game fight vs. Dungeon = kill Black Dragons first, then the Raiders / Matriaches, then Blood Furies, then Hydras, then mop-up. The Furies aren't really that dangerous; they're very powerful early-game but late-game they get weaker since they are level 2 units after all. They're still decent targets since they do pack quite some damage for their level, but not priorities. I don't like the idea of neglecting some of your best units; your hero may be half your army in magic vs. magic slugfests, but that doesn't replace the need of actually having an army. You'll have a sizable stack of Blood Furies from early-game creeping anyway, and they're always useful to shield your Matriaches from charges (or to suicide and block enemy ranged units).
4. Depends on what's doing the hit-and-run - if it's a hero with faster units, then there's nothing you can do (like Elvin said, Stalkers will outspeed Archers and hence the hit-and-run goes off safely). Imperial Griffins are only going to work if you kill / force your opponent to flee in a turn, else they will have to land and die. Think Imperial Griffins going Battle Dive, then Stalkers moving a couple of squares.
5. No idea, although they can for certain land in bad spots (:().
6. Mass Decay is fine, Corrupted Soil isn't. I don't have any on-the-spot estimates for how much damage it'll do in a typical fight, but seems to me a battle will typically resolve itself into win and lose after 5 turns for the hero, so work from there.
7. Enraged has never been much of a factor in my games to be honest. Perhaps it's because the Zombies and Demons that get them are so weak ...
8. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd point out that there's a difference between attack and defense. It's entirely possible for example that in fights against neutrals you'll be doing more attacking than defending.
9. Avenger is extremely dangerous if you also manage to favour your opponents' most dangerous units. The damage can't be counted in pure numbers. Example: your Arcane Archers get a favoured enemy critical vs. enemy Champions, killing all of them. You've done more than deal damage, you've stopped the Champions from dealing damage. Champions are dangerous units, and such a lucky hit is well worth the 3 levels invested (you still have 2 more favoured enemies!).
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.
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sylvanllewelyn
- Pixie
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Clarification for 8): Expert attack increases melee damage by 15%, expert defense decreases melee damages by 30%. This is not "balanced". But attack and defense skill is: 20 points of extra attack skill doubles damage, 20 points of defense skill halves damage. My question: WHY?
9): I'm still convinced the intention of "enraged" is so that people do not automatically leave tanks to the last, but single-digit increases in attack skill is pathetic. IMO, the only unit with "enraged" that is threatening enough to attract earlier attention are the hydras.
I also thought about asymptotic efficiency of low and high level units. I then realised it's not that meaningful a question because unrealistic growth-limitations (relative to gold income) are what forces people to hire high-level creatures. That, and castle defenses deal arithmetic damage rather than boasting your own ranged units. Damn, so many good things about Heroes 4...
9): I'm still convinced the intention of "enraged" is so that people do not automatically leave tanks to the last, but single-digit increases in attack skill is pathetic. IMO, the only unit with "enraged" that is threatening enough to attract earlier attention are the hydras.
I also thought about asymptotic efficiency of low and high level units. I then realised it's not that meaningful a question because unrealistic growth-limitations (relative to gold income) are what forces people to hire high-level creatures. That, and castle defenses deal arithmetic damage rather than boasting your own ranged units. Damn, so many good things about Heroes 4...
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