Grade the racial skills

[ThunderTitan]

Actually, there aren't really a lot of times that Isabel and Godric (as my ratings were given for campaigns) are hit "first" with melee, maybe just a handful, plus the final boss fight in C6M5.

Right, you based it on the damn tutorial... even so, you don't need to get hit first, extra dmg on the retal helps even if he hits you second. You make it sound as if retal is pointless and you can alway avoid it.

[maltz]

You make it sound as if retal is pointless and you can alway avoid it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. And I explained how you can also do it in the above post, too. The fight is usually over before the enemy gets a chance to hit you on their turn.

Not only the Haven campaign, but for a lot of other campaigns you can cut down losses dramatically by trying out different stuff. For example, last night I lost a total of 2 familiars while killing the group of mages in the middle of C2M3 on 1.3 heroic. I lost 0 unit when killing the group of earth elementals 1 turn later. There are just a lot of stuff you can do to avoid being hit.

[Arqane]

That's just because you're a Grumpy Old Wizard. I usually create a L2 artifact for one of my units in the first week. That can actually give a very big boost to the hero when you add +1 speed and either hp, def, or magic protection. The only real drawback is having to return to the town to get the resources back or power up the artifact. As you know, you don't actually lose the resources.

Whatever works for you man, but I don't think it is very efficient to build the forge in week1 for the following reasons.

In week 1 you spend 3000 gold and 1 of each resource for the forge plus the cost of the artifact itself.

You must skip dwelling(s) and stop conquering stuff (potential mine income loss) by using up turns going to and from your castle.

Here is what you are spending to get the one creature artifact.

1) +1speed/+1 HitP: 3000 gold 11 wood 6 ore 6 mercury 11 gems 1 sulfer 1crystal +potential mine income loss

2) +1speed/+25%MagicProtection: 3000 gold 11 wood 6 ore 6 mercury 11 gem 1 sulfer 1 crystal +potential mine income loss

3) +1 speed/+2defense 3000 gold 11 wood 6 ore 6 mercury 11 crystal 1 gem 1 sulfer +potential mine income loss

You also lose out on a skill or ability that would probably benefit you more than that 1 artifact by chosing to advance artificer rather than another skill.

Well, as I tend to use Razzak, I have to stop by my town anyway to pick up something worth fighting with. Unless you're using Naathir or Havez, you'll pretty much need to stop by the town to pick something up anyway. As far as losing the skill, by L5 I almost always have to pick Advanced Artificer so that I don't have to pick up a junk skill. If nothing else, I'll usually just go with the +1 speed. That really messes up the AI in the beginning .

[DaemianLucifer]

@maltz
Though that works against the computer,it doesnt work against human player.First you must count the initial placement on BF and ATB bar(lot of luck involved here),then you have to outwit and outmanouver your opponent.But no matter how good you are,if your armies are roughly the same,and your opponent isnt a complete newb,youll get some damage.

[ThunderTitan]

And it shouldn't work on the AI either when your forces are almost equal. As for the situations you described, earth elementals are like zombies, you can kill 'em with a sprite and a hero.

[maltz]

Yeah sure I know human brains are better than AIs. So I said my ratings are for the campaigns. In MP games good defense might actually beat good offense.

But indeed the AIs are powerless against our smart mind. Earth elemental, mages, whatever... so that still proves my statement that "If you are hit first, you are doing a bad job", right? No dispute.

[ThunderTitan]

But indeed the AIs are powerless against our smart mind. Earth elemental, mages, whatever... so that still proves my statement that "If you are hit first, you are doing a bad job", right? No dispute.

Mages are ranged/casters, and Earth Elementals are way too slow. Now if you tell me that you never got hit in the final fight with Agrael...

[maltz]

Mages are ranged/casters, and Earth Elementals are way too slow. Now if you tell me that you never got hit in the final fight with Agrael...

The last fight (or the only fight) with Agrael, if I remember it right, C1M5... I just did it with patch 1.3 a few days ago...

https://www.celestialheavens.com/528 (lreported below the walkthrough section)

Since Agrael is so weak (since patch 1.2 he is toned down for unknown reason), my Isabel at that time crushed Agrael on the field without being "hit first" at all. (I think I didn't lose any unit in that fight as Agrael casted some dark magic when his turn came up.)

[Idleness2]

not on week 3 lol

Anyway, getting to the subject, I think irresistable magic is quite a nice skill, since destructive magic is a big chunk of dungeon's power, yet getting resistence is not hard...but it just doesnt help much, against dungeon, due to this racial skill.

anyway, obviously, u dont have 1200 dmaage empowered explosion on week 3, and even if you did, it wont even kill half the marskmen...

300 marksmen with just a bless spell are gonna do, ignoring luck, probably 2400 damage, cut it in half for range, ok, 1200....interesting, isnt it?

Anyway, I think early on, Haven has a substantial overall strength advantage over dungeon, because of their far higher creature generation, and this peansants training crap. Early on dungeon will also be struggling with resources and killing neutrals and will not have the necessary skills in their hero yet that makes dungeon such a potentially formidable force.

But sometime around month 2-3, dungeon has a window of opportunity agaisnt haven, imo, when their destructive magic is very powerful, and they have all the good skills, like attack and sorcery and all, and they no longer have an unifished army, so everything can synergize toether like it does so well with dungeon, i e blood furies with grim raiders. During this time dungeon outpowers haven.

After this period tho, I think haven will start to get the advantage back again, due to the huge size of armies, where haven benefits from their far superior creature generation, and the superiority of light magic over destructive, in large armies.

[ThunderTitan]

Since Agrael is so weak (since patch 1.2 he is toned down for unknown reason), my Isabel at that time crushed Agrael on the field without being "hit first" at all.

Nice. But i think most specials would be redundant in that case.

[Mightor Magic]

Necromancy: It's a good skill, max as soon as probable for any Necro. However, skeletons are useless without skeleton archers, attack, archery and battle frenzy. Quite a list. Also, Elementals, Constructs and undead give nothing in return. Necromancy:7.

Avenger: I'm methodical so I usually track down the unupgraded units before going after the nastier upgraded ones. But I only see the point in going for Advanced/Expert Avenger when I have a castle to take. Avenger: 5.

Irresitable magic: Huh. I don't exactly fear the units that have magic resistance so what's the point? IM: 1.

Counterstrike: Hmm, Defense, Mass Suffering and Gryphons. Maybe it's not the most sensible way to play but it's not the worse skill. Counterstrike: 2.

Artificer: Missing skills, stat points or even units? A little resource amangement will set your army back right. Or make a good thing better. Or just give your units that little extra boost to take a single mine. Easily the best racial skill in the game if you know what to do with it. Artificer: 10.

Gating: I like Gating. So many different uses, everything from Hellfire bombs to blockers to a single imp getting that all important first hit out of the way. As a nice bonus, a high level Gating hero {Nymus in particular} with a little luck can summon in an army that is larger than his own army. Gating: 9.

I can't give Gating a 10 because the only way to gate Devils is with that dumb amulet. Shouldn't Expert Gating be enough? It's not like they're that great a unit.

[Sir_Toejam]

I'm methodical so I usually track down the unupgraded units before going after the nastier upgraded ones. But I only see the point in going for Advanced/Expert Avenger when I have a castle to take. Avenger: 5.

you do know that you don't have to kill upgraded units to get the ability to target them with the avenger skill, yes?

you only have to kill sufficient numbers on one type of unit, upgraded or not, to be able to get both units available from the avenger guild.

[Mytical]

Well I would put Natures Luck up there..if it was not so blasted hard to get without a mod. (10/10 if you can get the blasted skill). Elven Luck and Dead Man's Luck I would put about 7/10 and 4/10 respectively (dead man's is useful only if hero doesn't have luck skill to counter it). Doing extra damage is always nice, and reducing the chance of your enemy doing extra damage is also nice.

As for the 'special' racials I would put Avenger as a 6/10 (you have to pay for a building to use, and you have to visit when you want to change) but a 9/10 with imbue arrow/rain of arrow/Destructive magic combo (since summons has taken such a hit with the recent patch Destructive has become more useful with Sylvan).

Gating - Very useful, just more useful if you can get urgash (then it becomes a KILLER skill) without Urgash 7.5/10 with ...is there a 11/10?? Yes Urgash makes it that good. Block ranged units? Make units waste Retal? What is there not to like? .

Necromancy - 10/10 all by itself. More so with the little buildings that they can build . With Eternal Servitude and Raise Archers..it can become a very dangerous skill. Imagine what would be possible with 10 Pillar of Bones and a mastery in Necromancy? Scary thought.

Artificer - could have been a 8/10 at least, but is about a 2/10 (being generous here). The cost is prohibitive, and it doesn't really add anything till end game. Where all the other skills pretty much can go early or beginning of game, this one is so cost intensive it is end game when it becomes most useful (on larger maps). If the artifacts cost say gold might have been better..donno.

IM - well it has good and bad, but this isn't to argue either. So..I would have to put it at a 3/10 just slightly better then Artificer since you dont need either a building or to visit towns for it. Fight a hero with MR, having Silver Unicorns, and tell me IM is not valuable. On the other hand..it can hurt you also, which it is the only skill that can.. so yeah it is only slightly better then the insanely costly Artificer.

The Artificer seems to be one of the worse so far...it is another one that needs looked at.

[Caradoc]

I think a good way to address the artificer problem is to have that level 12 Treasure Cave building crank out rare resources instead of the gold.