Are Ghosts / Spectres TOO strong now?
Are Ghosts / Spectres TOO strong now?
Now that Ghosts & Spectres have seen a +100% and +58% boost in HPs are they now too strong?
What looks out-of-whack to me isn't the power of the Necros per-se [without the silly ghost farming "exploit"] but the strength of ghosts / spectres guarding mines.
A creature with 19 HP, good speed, decent init, with incorporeal is a NIGHTMARE to deal with. On top of that if you have to deal with a "hoard" [or more] of them during week one you're hosed if they are blocking a critical choke point in the map.
While I'm glad to see the Necros getting a quality creature in their lineup I think the game needs to put far, far fewer of these creatures in guardian locations.
What looks out-of-whack to me isn't the power of the Necros per-se [without the silly ghost farming "exploit"] but the strength of ghosts / spectres guarding mines.
A creature with 19 HP, good speed, decent init, with incorporeal is a NIGHTMARE to deal with. On top of that if you have to deal with a "hoard" [or more] of them during week one you're hosed if they are blocking a critical choke point in the map.
While I'm glad to see the Necros getting a quality creature in their lineup I think the game needs to put far, far fewer of these creatures in guardian locations.
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- Jolly Joker
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Alamar, I think you are making a big mistake here. You are basing all of your balance discussions on HEROIC level. This is clearly wrong. Heroic level is not the "normal" play level.
So the basic consideration is NORMAL level, not heroic.
If you calculate on heroic, you'll always and for all towns find things harder than others. I don't think heroic is relevant for this. Heroic is meant to be impossibly difficult. Right?
So the basic consideration is NORMAL level, not heroic.
If you calculate on heroic, you'll always and for all towns find things harder than others. I don't think heroic is relevant for this. Heroic is meant to be impossibly difficult. Right?
- Grumpy Old Wizard
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There are imabalances between the factions in all difficulty levels. They are just more glaring in heroic.
Yes, heroic is supposed to be difficult, but it should be equally difficult for all factions, otherwise there is an imbalance.
Yes, I think they pumped up ghosts/specters too much. They are incorporal and have nice hit points too.
GOW
Yes, heroic is supposed to be difficult, but it should be equally difficult for all factions, otherwise there is an imbalance.
Yes, I think they pumped up ghosts/specters too much. They are incorporal and have nice hit points too.
GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
I think that you obviously don't understand the point of the topic. If you fight the current version of neutral Ghosts / Spectres they are too strong of a guardian no matter what difficulty level you are on. The only thing that changes between difficulty levels is the relative size of the defenders.Jolly Joker wrote:Alamar, I think you are making a big mistake here. You are basing all of your balance discussions on HEROIC level. This is clearly wrong. Heroic level is not the "normal" play level.
So the basic consideration is NORMAL level, not heroic.
If you calculate on heroic, you'll always and for all towns find things harder than others. I don't think heroic is relevant for this. Heroic is meant to be impossibly difficult. Right?
Let's make an example. Incorporeal [IIRC] triggers 50% of the time. We've all had battles though where [due to random chance] it triggered about 70% of the time. If you are fighting a hoard of "random level 3s" and get Spectres that means maybe you are fighting 50+ Spectres that effectively have over 60HP because of incoporeal.
If you think the above is fair and OK then good. I on the other hand don't think that fighting a [potentially] 60+ HP level 3 creature is a good idea.
Creature stacks are not chosen by level, number, and THEN type. They're chosen by level -> type -> number. That's why in the same stack, you may see 50 peasants, but only 25 sprites (both come under random L1 all the time at the first wood/ore mines).Alamar wrote:Let's make an example. Incorporeal [IIRC] triggers 50% of the time. We've all had battles though where [due to random chance] it triggered about 70% of the time. If you are fighting a hoard of "random level 3s" and get Spectres that means maybe you are fighting 50+ Spectres that effectively have over 60HP because of incoporeal.
If you think the above is fair and OK then good. I on the other hand don't think that fighting a [potentially] 60+ HP level 3 creature is a good idea.
Ghosts/Spectres were always very dangerous without the right units (hunters being the best). Now they're a bit different, they're more likely to get to archers because of the added HPs, but they do significantly less damage. Before, if they used to get to you by luck, they'd REALLY hurt. Now it'll average out a bit more, and you can expect damage from them, but they won't necessarily wipe you out.
Strictly speaking by the numbers, they're no more or less powerful than before. It's still up to luck for how well you will do against them. But yes, the best strategy against them has changed, now Furies, Deep Hydras, and Imperial Griffins will be better against them.
Ghost/Spectres were very weak creatures, with only 8 and 12 hit points respectively its usefulness in combat was a product of pure lottery. A single blow could annul them, but a evaded attack was allowing them to preserve their whole integrity, followed sometimes by a devastating retaliation... Their function in combat was diffuse cause of this; it was supposed that they were anti casters/shooters, but they were not good at it, were dying fast because they had a ridiculously low life combined with low speed and initiative.
Now they are good blockers cause they are numerous, relatively tough and hard to hit, even casters like druids or archmages are in trouble against them cause magic is no more the spectres´ weakness. They do now significantly less damage, but who cares? they are not "killers", but blockers.
Besides necro tiers 1-4 were very, very, very weak, even basic vampires are mediocre creatures, but now with this new ghosts/spectres necro have some power a the start.
Summary: Ghosts and spectres are ok, man!
It is like when one player got silly treants guarding a gold mine and the other player got frightiening pit lords, and nobody say: "are pit lords TOO powerful?"
Now they are good blockers cause they are numerous, relatively tough and hard to hit, even casters like druids or archmages are in trouble against them cause magic is no more the spectres´ weakness. They do now significantly less damage, but who cares? they are not "killers", but blockers.
Besides necro tiers 1-4 were very, very, very weak, even basic vampires are mediocre creatures, but now with this new ghosts/spectres necro have some power a the start.
Summary: Ghosts and spectres are ok, man!
Master Hunters make almost the same damage than vampires, they have 10 initiative, ranged attack, double shoot and warding arrows. If you are scared about a horde of spectres guarding a mine, a horde of master hunters must give you a heart attack, man.I think that you obviously don't understand the point of the topic. If you fight the current version of neutral Ghosts / Spectres they are too strong of a guardian no matter what difficulty level you are on
It is like when one player got silly treants guarding a gold mine and the other player got frightiening pit lords, and nobody say: "are pit lords TOO powerful?"
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As neutral stacks all ranged units are clearly broken. Particularly druids and hunters. Comparing these units to other non-ranged units is not really fair.Adicto wrote:Ghost/Spectres were very weak creatures, with only 8 and 12 hit points respectively its usefulness in combat was a product of pure lottery. A single blow could annul them, but a evaded attack was allowing them to preserve their whole integrity, followed sometimes by a devastating retaliation... Their function in combat was diffuse cause of this; it was supposed that they were anti casters/shooters, but they were not good at it, were dying fast because they had a ridiculously low life combined with low speed and initiative.
Now they are good blockers cause they are numerous, relatively tough and hard to hit, even casters like druids or archmages are in trouble against them cause magic is no more the spectres´ weakness. They do now significantly less damage, but who cares? they are not "killers", but blockers.
Besides necro tiers 1-4 were very, very, very weak, even basic vampires are mediocre creatures, but now with this new ghosts/spectres necro have some power a the start.
Summary: Ghosts and spectres are ok, man!
Master Hunters make almost the same damage than vampires, they have 10 initiative, ranged attack, double shoot and warding arrows. If you are scared about a horde of spectres guarding a mine, a horde of master hunters must give you a heart attack, man.I think that you obviously don't understand the point of the topic. If you fight the current version of neutral Ghosts / Spectres they are too strong of a guardian no matter what difficulty level you are on
It is like when one player got silly treants guarding a gold mine and the other player got frightiening pit lords, and nobody say: "are pit lords TOO powerful?"
Imo hunters should get both a dmg nerf and an hp buff(like 1 dmg reduction which would be 2 factoring both shots, 3 hp bonus, and 1 defense boost would sound about right). Druids should not be doing more dmg the more stacks they are split into.
In general though I find a few units are still in broken territory. For example upgrading peasants to militia is a waste because militia suck and peasants at least have a use as walking money bags that can be emergency upgraded to archers on defense.
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- Sir_Toejam
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that entirely depends on the circumstances.So,youll rather fight a bunch of druids then a bunch of djinns?Or colossi?
if i have a bunch of slow meatbags with no magic protection, druids are bad.
if i have a bunch of fast heavy hitters, like cerberi and nightmares, then druids are no problem; on the other hand, attacking an equal number of collossi with cerberi would be complete suicide.
they really don't do that much more damage than any other equivalent level critter, it's just that the magic bypasses defense.
there's several ways around that.
I've played every map in this game, and all the campaigns, and did not find any of the magic using critters to be overpowered.
- DaemianLucifer
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You dont find the fact that 7 stacks of 1 druid do much more damge than 1 stack of 7 druids the least overpowered?You dont find the fact that if your initial mine is guarded by some ranged/catser unit you have to wait a lot,while if its guarded by some walkers you can kill them with a single runner the least overpowered?I peronally will rather fight 10 000 zombies than 10 mages,and Im sure lots of people feel the same.You dont find that overpowered at all?Im talking just the guardinas here.Race to race comparison is a completelly different thing.
The point is that Alamar said "If you fight the current version of neutral Ghosts / Spectres they are too strong of a guardian no matter what difficulty level you are on", and I have showed the hunters example to argue that there are more dangerous creatures.MrSteamTank wrote:As neutral stacks all ranged units are clearly broken. Particularly druids and hunters. Comparing these units to other non-ranged units is not really fair.
Simply there are creatures that work better than others as neutral monsters. It always has been this way and always will be, but it has nothing to do with underpowered or overpowered, simply different kind of creatures: shooters, casters, tanks, meat-shields...
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Very true, that. And there's really not much to do about it either. This is also why Casters are so broken: they are extremely powerful in small numbers, quite Ok in medium numbers and underpowered in large numbers. If you're fighting shooters, you're quite OK if you take out 9 of 10 and block the remaining stack. When fighting spellcasters, you're still in for a lot of hurt. Spellcasters gets so big bonuses compared to shooter that they should be doing less damage, but they aren't.Adicto wrote:Simply there are creatures that work better than others as neutral monsters. It always has been this way and always will be, but it has nothing to do with underpowered or overpowered, simply different kind of creatures: shooters, casters, tanks, meat-shields...
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About spectres, I think they should decrease a bit their evade rate. Or maybe -1 speed. But strangely, I had less headaches with them after that change. Was their damage so high?
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