Heroes V Lore Discussion *Spoiler*

[koganei83]

yah,

i do agree that most of them are stupid and crazy.. hopefully, they will come back better in the expansion..

[DaemianLucifer]

One of the faults of traditional storytelling is the lack of character development on the part of the evil villian. However, once writers begin to explore how evil villians are developed, they found out that it all goes back to the age-old idea that circumstances and upbringing are what causes someone to be evil. Most people will do exactly the same thing given the villian's situation, or even under less coercing situations. Otherwise we won't have the Holocaust.

I'm not saying the villian should be left alone as a result. I'm just saying that the H5 story is trying to say that Isabel, in her background and circumstances, started doing crazy things, so she needs to be stopped. No good, no evil, just a person that needs to be stopped somehow, by other self-interested parties, also devoid of good or evil. The only "good" and "evil" seems to be Tieru or the demon soverign, but even they seem to be rather powerless when things don't turn out as planned.

H5's storyline was very badly executed, but the direction is definitely one that future games should follow.

Well they tried to explain it,but they failed miserably.Instead of justifying isabel they just made her look spoiled and stupid(not crazy,because crazy people are at least smart).Yet if you check out the stories from HIV you see how the characters are made very deep and complex,even with the lack of shiny animations.

[Omega_Destroyer]

I agree with that.

[Sikon]

I'd say Markal and Biara are also definitely evil. There's nothing good that can be said about that. Markal himself was the reason of his exile, which eventually drove him to the point of revenge. And he's power-hungry: the more power he has, the more he wants. Biara just "sells everyone who buys her", dooming herself to an endless cycle of betrayal.

Considering others:
- Nicolai is famed as a great warrior, and indeed, he easily finishes off hordes of demons, but how? With the Heart of the Griffin. The artifact gives him a feeling of invincibility, which he momentarily loses (and is disoriented) when it doesn't work on Agrael. Calling Isabel to succeed him could be considered an unwise move, but frankly, what other choice did he have? A clueless boy? A power-obsessed archbishop?
- Isabel has less exposure than she deserves (the war is, after all, named after her), and behaves inconsistently in different situations, so it's quite difficult to jump to conclusions. Still, it seems that her love for Nicolai is genuine and she's motivated by bringing him back at all costs, even at the cost of both the Silver Cities and the Empire. She isn't power-hungry, but she will vigorously defend whatever power she's given.
(Interestingly, I believe Marzhin is quite right in characterizing Markal as the Rasputin of Ashan. It was Nicholas II's wife (here, interestingly, the Nicolai-Nicholas distinction is reversed in English and Russian compared to what is seen in H5) who brought Rasputing so close to the ruling family. The last Russian Emperor and Empress are best characterized as good "family-people", but not suitable for ruling a country in times of war.
- Godric is not quite the "paragon knight" he's described as, as he breaks his oath (even though he has all reasons to do so, and we can't really blame him) and doesn't fight Markal himself to save his own daugther. Still, he's one of the closest the game has to an all-goody benefactor.
- Agrael, in his original form, is impulsive, impatient, and, when still Kha-Beleth's servant, careless. He kills Beatrice to reach Isabel sooner, which is exactly what causes Isabel to repel him; kills Nicolai, who dares to stand between him and his goal; rushes through Irollan like there's no tomorrow, weakening the elves, instead of just sneaking through (and why didn't he use Vessel of Shalassa? ). As Raelag, he becomes more rational and calculating, but still values Isabel too high - higher than Ygg-Chal, the Empire, Irollan (he does nothing while Vampire Lord Nicolai decimates Irollan, doesn't even attempt to stab Markal in the back, as Zehir later does). Also, he's deceived by the fake Shadya. Just like everyone else, but for him, it's less forgivable because he knew both Biara and Shadya for at least some time.
- Alaron, while he is good-meaning and cares about allies, is too indecisive. He was also too proud to beg the Emerald Dragons for pardon and afraid of visiting Tieru during all these years when he had plenty of time. Which results in Findan doing his bidding at the last moment.
- Findan, in the beginning, only cares about Irollan, hesitating to host refugees from the Empire, but later, after visiting Tieru, comes to realize his mission as a possible savior of Ashan. And saving Ashan doesn't necessarily mean saving Isabel, although Findan is to blame that he doesn't even want to try. (On an unrelated note, his "poetry" now circulates Russian LiveJournal pages as a source of humor - although the Russian version is considerably better.)
- Cyrus is just an arrogant egoist, and remains one until his death. Not much else to say about him.
- Zehir is not as selfish as his father and, like Findan, is driven first by the desire to liberate his homeland and then by the desire to save the world. However, he is overconfident and likes to show off with spectacular magic, which causes him to be blinded by simple magical disguise (Biara as Shadya... and why didn't he perform the ritual alone?). He's determined to keep Isabel alive despite having no feelings for her (unlike Godric and Raelag). Unfortunately, the ending is too rushed to say something definite about his attempts to redeem her.

[Gaidal Cain]

- Nicolai is famed as a great warrior, and indeed, he easily finishes off hordes of demons, but how? With the Heart of the Griffin.

Possibly the only character that never does something outright stupid. Well, appointing Isabel didn't turn out to be the best of moves, but I blame that more on Markal (and Kha-Beleth). For all he knew, Isabel could have become a good ruler, especially with Godric as her advisor.

- Godric is not quite the "paragon knight" he's described as, as he breaks his oath (even though he has all reasons to do so, and we can't really blame him) and doesn't fight Markal himself to save his own daugther. Still, he's one of the closest the game has to an all-goody benefactor.

His oathbreaking is interesting, as it's one of the two times were a character have to struggle with choosing between two different principles, with the other being Isabel's reaction to Markal's offer. Godric takes what's good above what "honour" would dictate. With regards to his daugther, what I'm stupified by is his total lack of an reaction to her death...

Also, he's deceived by the fake Shadya. Just like everyone else, but for him, it's less forgivable because he knew both Biara and Shadya for at least some time.

He must be half-deaf or something, if he doesn't recognize her voice. It would have been so much better and more in character if he'd known about her all along and then failed to stop her for some reason...

- Findan, in the beginning, only cares about Irollan, hesitating to host refugees from the Empire, but later, after visiting Tieru, comes to realize his mission as a possible savior of Ashan. And saving Ashan doesn't necessarily mean saving Isabel, although Findan is to blame that he doesn't even want to try.

Can't really blame him. With all the destrcution caused by her when she was "only" under Markal's influence, I can really understand him not caring one fig about trying to save her.

and why didn't [Zehir] perform the ritual alone?

Archdevils have previously shown an ability to show up just when they're the least wanted...

[Sikon]

Wait, so Shadya was Biara all along? I was under the impression that there indeed existed a real Shadya, and it was she who followed Raelag, then got lost and was replaced by Biara.
And how do we know that Freyda dies?

[Gaidal Cain]

Wait, so Shadya was Biara all along? I was under the impression that there indeed existed a real Shadya, and it was she who followed Raelag, then got lost and was replaced by Biara.

Biara said she was Shadya all along when they were down iin Sheogh to get Isabel back...

And how do we know that Freyda dies?

You get one spectre after the event with the angels, and she dissapears from your inventory. Either way, Godric doesn't seem to care very much about her...

[Sikon]

Wait... this doesn't make sense. Shadya then must have left Raelag for the duration of the Irollan campaign and he didn't even bother. Where was he, anyway?

[ThunderTitan]

Wait... this doesn't make sense.

And that's the only thing you think doesn't make sense?

[koganei83]

yah, the story was full of plot holes that needed to be fill...

anyone have any ideals why Nicolai wanted to attack the elves? My guess is that to avenge his father because Alaron did not help his father and indirectly caused his father's death.

Also, what happened to the guy who begs Alaron to give the humans a place in their kingdom? There was no mention of him after the first time.

Where did Realag and Shayda go when the resurrected Nicolai was fighting the elves? Were they with the crazy Isabel? Maybe the baby belongs to Realag instead of the demon soverign...

So the baby could be 1/4 dark elf, 1/4 demon, 1/4 human and perhaps even 1/4 wizard if Zehir had also an affair with Isabel? This will explain why he is trying so hard to help her...

[ThunderTitan]

Maybe the baby belongs to Realag instead of the demon soverign...

Nah, that would be too cool.

[Sikon]

anyone have any ideals why Nicolai wanted to attack the elves?

He's Markal's puppet with limited free will. Duh.
Crazy Isabel? Already you presume much. Consumed with grief, yes. But she did basically nothing, like Raelag, at least nothing that we know of.
It strikes me that the Sylvan campaign overall feels more polished than the other ones, and it was probably one of the first to be made, then the story took another direction so the way the invasion of Irollan was inserted feels rather patchy. Maybe there was going to be something involving Raelag, Isabel, and possibly Zehir while the undead were attacking Irollan?
Wait, that's funny... I wrote this before looking at the last paragraph of your post. I believe the child is indeed the future Demon Messiah (we're supposed to fight him in Dark Messiah, right?), but having another child from Raelag would be quite a good twist.

[ThunderTitan]

I wrote this before looking at the last paragraph of your post. I believe the child is indeed the future Demon Messiah (we're supposed to fight him in Dark Messiah, right?), but having another child from Raelag would be quite a good twist.

No, a good twist would be if the main character was suppose to be the DM, but after he's captured for "the ceremony" they discover that Raelag is "her babies daddy" and not the Soveraign. BURN.

[Odolwa]

You get one spectre after the event with the angels, and she dissapears from your inventory. Either way, Godric doesn't seem to care very much about her...

I doubt she was killed. But I have to agree that it's a bit strange.

After the fight with the angels, Markal says:
- "The wings of dead angels are far more useful than the nasty birds themselves. Now I can fly stright to Hikim to chat with Godric. Perhaps I'll bring his daughter aswell - after I kill her and resurrect her as a wight. Or perhaps not. It takes time to do these things properly.".

According to this sentence, I would say that it's inclined that he never killed her.

And if she really was murdered, Godric should have mentioned it the time that he and the other heroes confronted and killed Markal. He only says:
-"Vile scum! For the abuse you have inflicted upon Isabel and the Griffin Empire!"

He doesn't even mention his daughter's murder.

And why does he care about Isabel? Why is she so innocent to everything?
She's stupid and naive yes, but there's still a lot of evil in her.

[ThunderTitan]

And why does he care about Isabel? Why is she so innocent to everything?

They all got hunged up on the beta pic, and just couldn't let go.

[Sikon]

Now here's the question: how did Markal manage to kill the angels? They're supposed to be immortal, it's just they ascend to heaven after "death".

Maybe he had some uber-power that could render angels truly dead? One of the artifacts he collected?

[Omega_Destroyer]

I felt Isabel was nothing but a very weak attempt of creating a new Queen Catherine. But instead of making her a strong, likeable lead, they made her into a spoiled brat who did nothing more than give birth and constantly hold her sword up and shot like an idiot.

[theLuckyDragon]

Maybe they weren't attempting to recreate Catherine

[koganei83]

anyone have any ideals why Nicolai wanted to attack the elves?

He's Markal's puppet with limited free will. Duh.
Crazy Isabel? Already you presume much. Consumed with grief, yes. But she did basically nothing, like Raelag, at least nothing that we know of.
It strikes me that the Sylvan campaign overall feels more polished than the other ones, and it was probably one of the first to be made, then the story took another direction so the way the invasion of Irollan was inserted feels rather patchy. Maybe there was going to be something involving Raelag, Isabel, and possibly Zehir while the undead were attacking Irollan?
Wait, that's funny... I wrote this before looking at the last paragraph of your post. I believe the child is indeed the future Demon Messiah (we're supposed to fight him in Dark Messiah, right?), but having another child from Raelag would be quite a good twist.

but why would Markal wanted to attack the elves in the first place... I mean he seems to have no purpose with the elves, the elves did not care who becomes King/Queen as long as their empire is not soiled. I can understand Markal attacking the Silver Cities for revenge but why the elves? They don't seem to persucute the necromancers, just don't want them on their soil, unlike the wizards who are bent on killing them...

[ThunderTitan]

Please, we all know that the first things necromancers do once they attain power is to kill all the elves. And then play scrabble.