phantom forces

[minger]

I made a separate thread from this from the raise dead thread. Again I apologize if it's been talked about to death but I only look at the first page of thread topics and only read about half of them.

I actually don't mind phantom forces too much -- i think the only thing that's overpowered about it is that the new phantom force should never be able to act immediately after casting it (like, it should have the starting initiative of a summoned unit). Otherwise, I don't think it is broken b/c the phantom force can ALWAYS be countered by a simple level 1 destructive spell. (though I admit it does make the battle quite boring when you have a phantom forces - eldritch arrow exchange between the heroes like a million times in a row).

[DaemianLucifer]

The mirror image from HIII was limmited by the fact that only one image of each stack could be made,and any attack would make it disappear.A good way to counter it being overpowered by the fact that it replicates the entire stack.The phantom image from HIV was the best because it would summon only a certain number of creatures,and it would be without any mana,so it was a good spell,but in no way too powerfull.Now it not only replicates the whole stack,but it can be cast on any stack any number of times,and it is etheral,thus you need either magical attack,or lucky shot to destroy it.And it is level three no less.Yes,it is quite overpowered.With expert sorcery you can literally flood the map with phantom forces.And if you are inferno,each of those can phantom in more meat,making you quite a dominant one on the field.

[Nelgirith]

And if you are inferno,each of those can phantom in more meat,making you quite a dominant one on the field.

Since patch 1.1, Phantom Inferno stacks can't gate anymore.

The problem I have with Phantom Forces is that on one side, they "nerfed" Inferno by disabling gating on Phantom images, but on the other side, Phantom Forces of spellcasters have their mana fully restored.

To me, a Phantom Force should have the same attributes than the orignal stack, so if I copy a stack of spellcaster that has 2/17 mana left, the Phantom should then also have 2/17 mana.

[DaemianLucifer]

Since patch 1.1, Phantom Inferno stacks can't gate anymore.

The problem I have with Phantom Forces is that on one side, they "nerfed" Inferno by disabling gating on Phantom images, but on the other side, Phantom Forces of spellcasters have their mana fully restored.

To me, a Phantom Force should have the same attributes than the orignal stack, so if I copy a stack of spellcaster that has 2/17 mana left, the Phantom should then also have 2/17 mana.

The problem is that it copies the entire stack.If it copied only a certain amount of hp it would be ok,and there would be no need to nerf inferno.

[MrSteamTank]

I made a separate thread from this from the raise dead thread. Again I apologize if it's been talked about to death but I only look at the first page of thread topics and only read about half of them.

I actually don't mind phantom forces too much -- i think the only thing that's overpowered about it is that the new phantom force should never be able to act immediately after casting it (like, it should have the starting initiative of a summoned unit). Otherwise, I don't think it is broken b/c the phantom force can ALWAYS be countered by a simple level 1 destructive spell. (though I admit it does make the battle quite boring when you have a phantom forces - eldritch arrow exchange between the heroes like a million times in a row).

This means that as a hero you can 100% disable the other hero by simply casting phantom forces over and over. He can't do anything but counter your counter. Not to mention if you cast it on a very fast stack you may even get to act with your phantom force before his hero gets to counter it. Don't forget it has incoorporeal and killing it with some cheap stack of yours doesn't always work.

As daemianlucifer said if it replicated only X hp of the stack like say 200hp + 100hp per spellpower then a 4 spellpower hero can't replicate 150 arch-magi every single turn. Sometimes with expert sorcery you can cast phantom forces faster than he can disable them.

[Warlock]

I made a separate thread from this from the raise dead thread. Again I apologize if it's been talked about to death but I only look at the first page of thread topics and only read about half of them.

I actually don't mind phantom forces too much -- i think the only thing that's overpowered about it is that the new phantom force should never be able to act immediately after casting it (like, it should have the starting initiative of a summoned unit). Otherwise, I don't think it is broken b/c the phantom force can ALWAYS be countered by a simple level 1 destructive spell. (though I admit it does make the battle quite boring when you have a phantom forces - eldritch arrow exchange between the heroes like a million times in a row).

This means that as a hero you can 100% disable the other hero by simply casting phantom forces over and over. He can't do anything but counter your counter. Not to mention if you cast it on a very fast stack you may even get to act with your phantom force before his hero gets to counter it. Don't forget it has incoorporeal and killing it with some cheap stack of yours doesn't always work.

As daemianlucifer said if it replicated only X hp of the stack like say 200hp + 100hp per spellpower then a 4 spellpower hero can't replicate 150 arch-magi every single turn. Sometimes with expert sorcery you can cast phantom forces faster than he can disable them.

That's where the AOE spells like Fireball and Meteor Shower come in tho.

Overall I don't think there is anything *wrong* with Phantom Forces, but I do think that they tend to have too high initiative. Often I'll phantom a stack that *JUST* acted, and the phantom stack will have a move before any of the enemy creatures (sometimes they can move immediately or within one turn). That seems a bit too powerful. Granted, lowering their initiative might make the spell too useless as it will be that much easier for the enemy to kill your stack before it can act. So it's a balancing act there I guess.

[MrSteamTank]

I made a separate thread from this from the raise dead thread. Again I apologize if it's been talked about to death but I only look at the first page of thread topics and only read about half of them.

I actually don't mind phantom forces too much -- i think the only thing that's overpowered about it is that the new phantom force should never be able to act immediately after casting it (like, it should have the starting initiative of a summoned unit). Otherwise, I don't think it is broken b/c the phantom force can ALWAYS be countered by a simple level 1 destructive spell. (though I admit it does make the battle quite boring when you have a phantom forces - eldritch arrow exchange between the heroes like a million times in a row).

This means that as a hero you can 100% disable the other hero by simply casting phantom forces over and over. He can't do anything but counter your counter. Not to mention if you cast it on a very fast stack you may even get to act with your phantom force before his hero gets to counter it. Don't forget it has incoorporeal and killing it with some cheap stack of yours doesn't always work.

As daemianlucifer said if it replicated only X hp of the stack like say 200hp + 100hp per spellpower then a 4 spellpower hero can't replicate 150 arch-magi every single turn. Sometimes with expert sorcery you can cast phantom forces faster than he can disable them.

That's where the AOE spells like Fireball and Meteor Shower come in tho.

Overall I don't think there is anything *wrong* with Phantom Forces, but I do think that they tend to have too high initiative. Often I'll phantom a stack that *JUST* acted, and the phantom stack will have a move before any of the enemy creatures (sometimes they can move immediately or within one turn). That seems a bit too powerful. Granted, lowering their initiative might make the spell too useless as it will be that much easier for the enemy to kill your stack before it can act. So it's a balancing act there I guess.

Not really. They could make the phantom force skip the next turn and it would still be a killer spell. Phantom force a 'large' unit and it would form a wall blocking his large unit from reaching yours. Excellent when using liches.

You still have to waste a hero's turn to cast a spell to counter the phantom and you'll have to do it most likely during your next turn or else the phantom unit will get an attack.

Why cast any buff or debuff when you can cast phantom forces? He has to waste his next turn countering phantom forces anyways.

[DaemianLucifer]

Not really. They could make the phantom force skip the next turn and it would still be a killer spell. Phantom force a 'large' unit and it would form a wall blocking his large unit from reaching yours. Excellent when using liches.

You still have to waste a hero's turn to cast a spell to counter the phantom and you'll have to do it most likely during your next turn or else the phantom unit will get an attack.

Why cast any buff or debuff when you can cast phantom forces? He has to waste his next turn countering phantom forces anyways.

That depends a lot on the unit being phantomed and on your units.Sometimes its not necessary at all to counter his phantom force with a spell.And if you are expert in destruction magic,you can always use AOE spells.

[MrSteamTank]

Not really. They could make the phantom force skip the next turn and it would still be a killer spell. Phantom force a 'large' unit and it would form a wall blocking his large unit from reaching yours. Excellent when using liches.

You still have to waste a hero's turn to cast a spell to counter the phantom and you'll have to do it most likely during your next turn or else the phantom unit will get an attack.

Why cast any buff or debuff when you can cast phantom forces? He has to waste his next turn countering phantom forces anyways.

That depends a lot on the unit being phantomed and on your units.Sometimes its not necessary at all to counter his phantom force with a spell.And if you are expert in destruction magic,you can always use AOE spells.

Still it's too strong for a level 3 spell. If it were level 4-5 and was more mana to cast then I'd understand given it's power.

[juventas]

I vote for delay initiative of PF'ed stacks and trade places with firewall in terms of spell level.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Delaying initiative may make the spell next to useless. Bumping it to level 4 and firewall down to level 3 is a good change and will prevent use by any heroe who does not learn the summoning skill (for which there are few useful spells.)

Remember that any damage at all destroys the clone. Any area effect attack or damage from a single sprite destroys it. Other spells (meteor shower and the mass spells, for example) are very powerful too.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

Remember that any damage at all destroys the clone. Any area effect attack or damage from a single sprite destroys it.

Just 50% of a time.Wasting an attack on a phantom unit can mean a lot to your enemy.

[cornellian]

I agree with DL that Heroes IV's approach was the best, I actually wrote the same thing in Raise Dead thread before reading this... It can be a 3rd level spell no problem, but there should be a HP limit for keeping the number of summons under a reasonable level, as well as a tier limit to prevent spamming archangels that can resurrect your entire army in two turns.

Lowering the initiative would make the spell useless though, as almost every hero gets one or two destruction spells and there are many creatures that can dispel it without a problem.. So instead of casting meteor shower, you'd end up casting phantom forces that gets dispelled by a single druid immediately...

[Bandobras Took]

To me, a Phantom Force should have the same attributes than the orignal stack, so if I copy a stack of spellcaster that has 2/17 mana left, the Phantom should then also have 2/17 mana.

I'll second that, and have the same apply to "Shots Left" for ranged units.

Though I'll also mention that I object to being able to cast "Phantom Forces" on a Phantom Stack, creating a clone of a clone. If nothing else, one ought to be able to diminish the effectiveness of Phantom Forces by attacking the real stack.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Remember that any damage at all destroys the clone. Any area effect attack or damage from a single sprite destroys it.

Just 50% of a time.Wasting an attack on a phantom unit can mean a lot to your enemy.

I have never experienced an area effect spell like fireball or meteor ever missing the cloned stack. Yes, a physical attack can miss. Spells like empowered meteor storm mass slow, and others can be every bit (or more) as deadly as phantom army. Raise it to level 4 but don't nerf it to uselessness.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

I have never experienced an area effect spell like fireball or meteor ever missing the cloned stack. Yes, a physical attack can miss. Spells like empowered meteor storm mass slow, and others can be every bit (or more) as deadly as phantom army. Raise it to level 4 but don't nerf it to uselessness.

I still think it can survive as level 3 if only it has a limit in HP being cloned.If it worked like raise dead,except creating a new stack,and then cloning in the same stack(I dare not say like in HIV)then it wouldnt be overpowered at all,yet it would still be very usefull.

[Caradoc]

There are ways to handle the Phantom force without using your hero. A single spell casting creature will do.

And since the Phantom force always appears next to its parent, any area spell will hit them both.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Many a phantom stack I've lost due to a mage's fireball hitting the original stack.

[Gaidal Cain]

To me, the biggest current problem with it is that the AI will always go for the phantom stack first. With the 50% miss chance, it makes it a very good way to keep the Ai stacks busy.

[cornellian]

To me, the biggest current problem with it is that the AI will always go for the phantom stack first. With the 50% miss chance, it makes it a very good way to keep the Ai stacks busy.

True, but there are few battles in campaigns practically unwinnable without great losses if you don't exploit this.. I suppose Nival made it a low level spell for the campaigns, as they seem to be the focus of the game, and every main hero can have the spell by the second or at least third map. The weakness of AI is covered up by ridiculous numbers in their army, which is covered by phantom forces..

By the way, another weakness in combat AI is how it fails to attack its own units to cancel puppet master.