[HOMM4] Beasts of The Nature: Strategies and Tactics

[Banedon]

Water Elementals don't have infinite mana however.

[Vlad976]

How can Water Elementals allow a level 1 hero to beat any army?

By bringing lots of 'em. Which I think you can do with just about any creature.

[Paulus1]

Water Elementals don't have infinite mana however.

I know, but stack splitting helps quite a lot (downside being that neutrals also split into more stacks). A single WE is as effective with Quicksand and Fatigue as a huge stack.

[Le_Faucheur]

I don't agree about summon unicorn,it's a pretty strong spell,and they are very useful because of the blinding hability!

Ah, but if you have both Summon Phoenixes / Mantii and Summon Unicorns and can only cast one, which would you pick?

depends of the ennemis.mantises can only block one stack,whereas unicorns can blind several of them.

[wimfrits]

depends of the ennemis.mantises can only block one stack,whereas unicorns can blind several of them.

And in some situations a summoned unicorn can be your last hope of survival.
But imo other summons are generally more useful.

[Banedon]

I know, but stack splitting helps quite a lot (downside being that neutrals also split into more stacks). A single WE is as effective with Quicksand and Fatigue as a huge stack.

It doesn't allow the Level 1 hero to beat any army though; Mantises should be just as (or at worst marginally less) effective than Water Elementals.

And in some situations a summoned unicorn can be your last hope of survival.

If it comes to that I'd think it's time to restart the scenario

[pepak]

It doesn't allow the Level 1 hero to beat any army though;

Maybe that's why I wrote "many armies" rather than "any army".

Mantises should be just as (or at worst marginally less) effective than Water Elementals.

You would be surprised.

[wimfrits]

Mantises should be just as (or at worst marginally less) effective than Water Elementals.

You would be surprised.

I think the question should be:
Is 1 (or 2) WE (or a summoned stack of WE) + a stack of mantii better than a stack of WE?

[Banedon]

Mind explaining, pepak?

If the hero in question can summon Water Elementals, then I think Mantises would win without a fight.

[pepak]

Mind explaining, pepak?

If the hero in question can summon Water Elementals, then I think Mantises would win without a fight.

It's quite simple, really: In the scenario I have in mind (low level hero, low number of units, champion difficulty), I can't depend on Mantises to deal damage - against any but the weakest stacks they will inevitably start dying. With WE, I can always fill the whole battlefield with Quicksand, then deal with walkers with e.g. Summon Sprite (L1) or Summon Elf (L2) without taking any damage myself. Unlike Mantises, this works on quite strong stacks, too (I have been practicing it with L3 Nature hero + L3 Chaos hero [Mana Flare] against hundreds of Hydras...).

[Banedon]

I get it. But then if you're up against Hundreds of Sprites, it'd be better to have Mantises. Two unretaliated hits plus the Bind would be crucial.

Besides anyway later in the game you can always bring Mantises while taking Water Elementals would slow you down seriously.

[gravyluvr]

Taking two (or 3) nature heroes and surrounding them in a box formation with the 4 Water Elementals available on day one at the creature portal is a great strategy. Especially during the "clearing stages" before you have enough cash or growth to take Lvl 4s with you.

In fact, I've used 3 heroes (Archer-Archer-Druid) + Elves with 3 Water Elementals to take out all walking stacks. Once one of the Archers reach GM Archery, you can leave the Elves in towns. By the time you outgrow the WE's you should have resources enough to start using Griffin, Phoenix and Mantis stacks which greater improve your range. If there are any WEs at that point you just stick them in town or give them to a developing hero to use.

[csarmi]

This discussion thread is dedicated to HOMM4 game-play - specifically in the Nature town. This is for those who either still play HOMM4, are just getting into it thanks to the inclusion of your recent HOMM5 version, or all-time fans.

Note: Please use EQ if you are taking about Equilibris (HOMM4 players should try to play with EQ for a great change of pace).

Here are the five discussion questions:

First Question: Elves or White Tigers?
Second Question: Griffins or Unicorns?
Third Question: Which Creatures have you purchased at the Portal and why?
Fourth Question: Phoenix or Faerie Dragon?
Fifth Question: Which creatures do you prefer to Summon into a battle?

2n/3rd level: whichever is easier to build at that point. Elves are good if you are about to build the ranger's guild [soon] anyways... otherwise go with tigers. Unicorns are a clear choice pre-equi (you can't afford citadel), after equi in some cases Griffins can be considered. But level 2/Level 3 troops are jut fodders and usually irrelevant in the end (you won't take them into endfight anyways).

Fourth level: it's usually phoenix, unless I have a very good reason not to.

Mantises, mantises and mantises... never anything else... maybe sometimes 1 or 2 leprechauns or satyrs or a water elemental if really desperate.

Into battle: water elementals are grea, leprechauns and satyrs too... and of course mantises/phoenixes/feary dragons have their uses.

[Le_Faucheur]

the only problem with water elemental is that they aren't very effective against flyers.

[gravyluvr]

the only problem with water elemental is that they aren't very effective against flyers.

Right. But casting fatigue and weakness with each of them and then having them concentrate their ice bolt while your others attack might let you win the battle. And the beauty of the Heroes plus single stacks of Water Elementals phase of growth is that you will only lose 4-6 creatures during a retreat (depending on how many heroes you have developing at the time).

[DaemianLucifer]

Right. But casting fatigue and weakness with each of them and then having them concentrate their ice bolt while your others attack might let you win the battle. And the beauty of the Heroes plus single stacks of Water Elementals phase of growth is that you will only lose 4-6 creatures during a retreat (depending on how many heroes you have developing at the time).

Well,considering that flyers play before the elementals,unless morale comes into play,most of them will reach you in turn two,even with fatigue,so those chances you have are pretty small.

[Banedon]

Wonder what csarmi would say to the pepak's extreme-case scenario?

[csarmi]

Mantises are usually more practical, but yes, waters let you win fights insane odds. On campaign maps I won countless of fights by just having the summon waters spell... or some maps just having some waters, low level hero and sprites by massing quicksand.

Flyers can be stopped by bind flyer and some arrow as well. Killed griffins that way (didn't have waters though, only mantises and fodders) on one of the round table competition maps.

[Le_Faucheur]

yeah of course nature magic + order magic at the same time isn't that easy to get.

[gravyluvr]

Nature Spells are another very important part of any Nature army strategy. And summons can be key to victory on the battlefield, and certainly are a great way to keep from losing any creatures permanently on the way to the end fights.

Summons (ranked in my preference)
1 Leprechaun, Sprite, Wolf
2 Satyr, Elf, White Tiger
3 Water Elemental, Fire Elemental, Air Elemental*, Earth Elemental*
4 Wasport, Unicorn, Griffin
5 Faerie Dragon, Mantis, Phoenix

(* good for sieges)

Other Spells (ranked in my preference)
Mass Fortune 4, Mass Snake Strike 4, Dragon Strength 5, Mass Speed 3, Necromancy Ward 3, Quicksand 2 (3EQ), Wasp Storm 2, Fortune 2, Snake Strike 2, Giant Strength 2, Anti-Magic 2, Pathfinding 1, Stoneskin 1, Terrain Walk 1

Summon spells are great early, but I'd much rather have the Mass spells when I get to level 3-4 spells. Summon Leprechaun is key to early development. For Level 2 I hope to not get Fortune - I need Wasp Storm and Quicksand to make life easier. Snake Strike, Summon Satyr, and Giant Strength are good also. The others I just deal with. Level 3? Mass Speed and Water Elemental. Level 4 is all about Mass, but Summon Wasport's great too. Any Level 5 Spell is good, but since I go Phoenix/Mantis, I prefer to get Summon Faerie Dragon for the confusion spell.