Strategic AI + memory leaks: worrying stuff

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
Pugsley
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Unread postby Pugsley » 17 May 2006, 22:50

Anthriel wrote:Regarding the AI: Highly inconsistent as well. In the Warlords map (pretty similar to the Heroes III Warlords), one or two AI players usually die in the first or second week. Sometimes, the enemy won't flag mines, no matter the difficulty. But at Heroic, he is capable of building up armies as soon as possible, and mercilessly crush his opposition. My impression so far is that the AI is worse than Heroes III, but better than Heroes IV.
That is, on a strategic level. In actual battles, it does a fairly good job. It sometimes casted suboptimal spells and it sometimes attacked war machines, or refused to attack warmachines for no particular reason, but in general, it did better than in Heroes III. Though that might also have something to do with the smaller battlefield.

However, there is one thing that has not been mentioned yet and really gets on my nerves: balance. Now, I'm unsure how the towns compare to each other, because I have not played long enough. But I can tell you that the heroes are unbalanced to an unbelievable degree. Thought that Solmyr had unfair advantages against the likes of Serena (Eagle Eye Specialist)? Think again.

Prior to the "release", there was some talk about Deleb, the hero who starts with a Ballista that shoots Fireballs at enemies, and how that hero would probably be pretty good at the start. As it turns out, we were all wrong. She is not good, she is incredibly overpowered. You just take some Imps and Horned Demons with you, to tank some damage against ranged attackers and the like, and proceed to clear up the map. In Warlods, I was capable of wiping out two Dungeon weekly productions, that even had Hydras, with no more than about 30 Imps, 25 Horned Demons and a Level 4 Deleb. Note that for some unknown reason, the fireballs hurt the enemies, but not your own troops.
I'm sure she will become weaker over the course of the game, as stronger creatures join the fray. But on small maps, she completely wrecks the game. And even on longer maps, she is capable of securing an immense advantage, by being able to take on pretty much everything without an army, and without losses.

This is merely the most extreme example. The Dungeon empowered spells specialist can kill enemy stacks even more easily and without losses, but he has to recharge mana. The Academy Gremlin specialist allows you to gather over hundred Gremlins at the first day. And the Necropolis Raise Dead specialist can ensure no losses, no matter what you fight.

Now, from that, you could gather that all the brokeness cancels out (except for Deleb at least). But apart from the fact that the Sylvan and Haven lacks broken heroes, there is also the problem that you only ever see one starting hero for each faction. I seriously don't know what Nival was thinking when they balanced the hero specials.
The AI is simply diabolical,it will regularly ignore mines, and in battles it will make some of the most rediculous choices imaginable, not to mention if it see's a summoned air elemental it will attack it, with EVERYTHING, bar none, if you have high spell power and can summon 30+ of these a turn, your real troops will next to never be attacked, on high spell power heroes I just cast walls and walls of Air elementals and send them forwrd while the rest if my army sits back and shoots, no point losing units you paid for. Another major AI problem is that it cheats shamelessly, in one game especially the enemy had managed to capture 2 towns, I had 2 (2 were wiped out, it was the Neighbours map), and the AI never actually captured ANY ore mines, yet managed to have both of his cities fully upgraded (the team he wiped out was dead within 3 weeks so would only have half finished their city), to put the cream on the cake he also had both towns full armies built, with 14 devils to boot by the time our main armies met, on equal terms that would put him pretty much skint, I had 14 black dragons, but I couldnt afford to build all my troops, not even close, I had 30 matriarchs unbuilt, aswell as 33 deep hydra's (I rush for unit production early for maximum long term growth), however his hero had teleport and managed to steal my main city before my main army could get back, my defending force (was about a 10th the size of his attacking army) managed to kill about half of the attacking force, including all of his familiars and cerberi, and 4 devils. What happened next defied all logic, he managed to build ALL of my shadow matriarchs and deep hydra's once he took my town to replace his cerberi and familiars, that must total over 75,000gold, thats INSANE especially for a map with no gold mines, just to have sitting in your bank when you have fully built all your own armies and towns and had to 'pay' for all your ore by a market, that was only about 2months into the game too, I ended up winning that game in the end, but dear god Nival, just because your AI is awful doesnt mean you need to hand them infinate gold and resources.

As for balance, the Inferno army is, in a nutshell, broken. Even with gating, or even their unique instant gating, they cant match the ability to absorb damage of any other army, and their damage output isnt nearly big enough to compensate, they pretty much rely on their Succubi, as all their other units are sub-par and way too splatty, cerberi are about the only unit that are up to scratch for their tier, they die in 1 punch but their able to do massive damage very quickly and can run the whole battlefield on their opening turn making them a very good shock troop, while your demons (probably the worst unit in the game) will be lucky to get a turn by the time the battle is over as everything else is dieing so quickly, if they powered up pit fiend initiative it may help, and if they made devils more useful than just for their raise pit fiend ability (raises 2 pit fiends per devil, yes please). Fix inferno, the other teams seem to be pretty balanced, sylvans and haven possable a bit more powerful than the other3, but not by nearly as much as Inferno is lagging behind.

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 18 May 2006, 01:01

Pugsley wrote:Another major AI problem is that it cheats shamelessly,
Well this isnt that bad.Whenever AI is no match for a human player,making it a cheater is a nice substitution for its inability.
Pugsley wrote: As for balance, the Inferno army is, in a nutshell, broken. Even with gating, or even their unique instant gating, they cant match the ability to absorb damage of any other army, and their damage output isnt nearly big enough to compensate, they pretty much rely on their Succubi, as all their other units are sub-par and way too splatty, cerberi are about the only unit that are up to scratch for their tier, they die in 1 punch but their able to do massive damage very quickly and can run the whole battlefield on their opening turn making them a very good shock troop, while your demons (probably the worst unit in the game) will be lucky to get a turn by the time the battle is over as everything else is dieing so quickly, if they powered up pit fiend initiative it may help, and if they made devils more useful than just for their raise pit fiend ability (raises 2 pit fiends per devil, yes please). Fix inferno, the other teams seem to be pretty balanced, sylvans and haven possable a bit more powerful than the other3, but not by nearly as much as Inferno is lagging behind.
So,inferno is again the weakest faction?And youre saying this isnt an HIII clone(though a poor one) :disagree:

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Kristo
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Unread postby Kristo » 18 May 2006, 02:23

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Pugsley wrote:Another major AI problem is that it cheats shamelessly,
Well this isnt that bad.Whenever AI is no match for a human player,making it a cheater is a nice substitution for its inability.
Only if it's still fun to play against when it cheats. Then I say cheat away (Heroes 2 comes to mind). But my experiences thus far have been doubleplusunfun. Does anyone find the AI to be an entertaining opponent?

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 18 May 2006, 02:27

Kristo wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:
Pugsley wrote:Another major AI problem is that it cheats shamelessly,
Well this isnt that bad.Whenever AI is no match for a human player,making it a cheater is a nice substitution for its inability.
Only if it's still fun to play against when it cheats. Then I say cheat away (Heroes 2 comes to mind). But my experiences thus far have been doubleplusunfun. Does anyone find the AI to be an entertaining opponent?
No,because you cannot piss him off :devil:

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asandir
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Unread postby asandir » 18 May 2006, 02:28

not yet, but my fingers are crossed that i will meet a challenge somewhere further along the campaigns!!

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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 18 May 2006, 05:04

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Fix inferno, the other teams seem to be pretty balanced, sylvans and haven possable a bit more powerful than the other3, but not by nearly as much as Inferno is lagging behind.
So,inferno is again the weakest faction?And youre saying this isnt an HIII clone(though a poor one) :disagree:
Some other guy got on and starting complaining about how the Inferno would absolutely dominate small maps with Deleb's Ballista ability. I guess I'll have to wait until the game becomes available here before I found who's closer to the truth. :)

In fact, I think it's earlier in this thread:
Athriel wrote:
Prior to the "release", there was some talk about Deleb, the hero who starts with a Ballista that shoots Fireballs at enemies, and how that hero would probably be pretty good at the start. As it turns out, we were all wrong. She is not good, she is incredibly overpowered. You just take some Imps and Horned Demons with you, to tank some damage against ranged attackers and the like, and proceed to clear up the map. In Warlods, I was capable of wiping out two Dungeon weekly productions, that even had Hydras, with no more than about 30 Imps, 25 Horned Demons and a Level 4 Deleb. Note that for some unknown reason, the fireballs hurt the enemies, but not your own troops.
I'm sure she will become weaker over the course of the game, as stronger creatures join the fray. But on small maps, she completely wrecks the game. And even on longer maps, she is capable of securing an immense advantage, by being able to take on pretty much everything without an army, and without losses.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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asandir
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Unread postby asandir » 18 May 2006, 05:25

i guess i will have to give deleb a try, somewhat disappointing that a small mapbreaker like that made it thru the old "sanity check"

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Unread postby Romanov77 » 18 May 2006, 06:56

Let me say that my opinion about the game is changed, and im glad I didnt cancel the pre-order.

Im on scenario4 of haven campaign, and despite the total absence of AI (it was all scripted) the game offerent good challenge on Heroic setting.

The music...so great....as well a s sound effects.

The combat AI also behaved exceptionally well, it always knew what to attack...
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Unread postby Orfinn » 18 May 2006, 07:39

Bandobras Took wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:
Fix inferno, the other teams seem to be pretty balanced, sylvans and haven possable a bit more powerful than the other3, but not by nearly as much as Inferno is lagging behind.
So,inferno is again the weakest faction?And youre saying this isnt an HIII clone(though a poor one) :disagree:
Some other guy got on and starting complaining about how the Inferno would absolutely dominate small maps with Deleb's Ballista ability. I guess I'll have to wait until the game becomes available here before I found who's closer to the truth. :)

In fact, I think it's earlier in this thread:
Athriel wrote:
Prior to the "release", there was some talk about Deleb, the hero who starts with a Ballista that shoots Fireballs at enemies, and how that hero would probably be pretty good at the start. As it turns out, we were all wrong. She is not good, she is incredibly overpowered. You just take some Imps and Horned Demons with you, to tank some damage against ranged attackers and the like, and proceed to clear up the map. In Warlods, I was capable of wiping out two Dungeon weekly productions, that even had Hydras, with no more than about 30 Imps, 25 Horned Demons and a Level 4 Deleb. Note that for some unknown reason, the fireballs hurt the enemies, but not your own troops.
I'm sure she will become weaker over the course of the game, as stronger creatures join the fray. But on small maps, she completely wrecks the game. And even on longer maps, she is capable of securing an immense advantage, by being able to take on pretty much everything without an army, and without losses.
Now we have two overpowered Heroes, Deleb and Ossir in the Duel mode. Well luck is in fact overpowered.

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Unread postby Pugsley » 20 May 2006, 15:39

Orfinn wrote:Now we have two overpowered Heroes, Deleb and Ossir in the Duel mode. Well luck is in fact overpowered.
They changed Daleb, now her war machines just get extra health, which makes her one of the worse heroes for Inferno (Erasial, and Nebiros are both better).

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 20 May 2006, 15:57

Pugsley wrote: They changed Daleb, now her war machines just get extra health, which makes her one of the worse heroes for Inferno (Erasial, and Nebiros are both better).
That's stupid. They should have just have her give more initiative to it. Would have been more usefull.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 20 May 2006, 21:55

Pugsley wrote:
Orfinn wrote:Now we have two overpowered Heroes, Deleb and Ossir in the Duel mode. Well luck is in fact overpowered.
They changed Daleb, now her war machines just get extra health, which makes her one of the worse heroes for Inferno (Erasial, and Nebiros are both better).
Haha!That means that inferno is the weakest faction now,and that this actually is a clone :devil:

I see a patern here:We see something is wrong,we complain and they change it to something worse :disagree: People,please stop complaining!

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 20 May 2006, 22:05

DaemianLucifer wrote:People,please stop complaining!
Screw that. I wanna see how bad they can make it... :devil:
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 20 May 2006, 22:17

The bloody CPU error is back....
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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 20 May 2006, 22:57

ThunderTitan wrote:The bloody CPU error is back....
Yes :disagree: When will you fix it?

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Unread postby MrSteamTank » 14 Jun 2006, 03:40


I have a low end system, but I surpasss minimum req. enought to deserve a decent performance with everything on low.
The Demo works fine on "LOW" for me....but reading this stuff, it seems that even placing everything on "VERY LOW" the retail tends to be choppy.

This just plain suck.
This is not a FPS...not even a RTS...its a freaking turn based game, and Im not going to upgrade for a game for that I meet and surpass all the minimum requirments.

.
hehe. My computer surpassed all the recommended requirements and I would never over 5 fps on the lowest possible settings. So i upgraded my video card from a 128mb to a 512 mb radeon x1600 pro and it still chugs at a turtles pace if I ever zoom out enough so I don't have to scroll my screen around constantly when my hero moves. Definitely VERY rushed. I should read more about games before I buy them. If I could I'd return this game to the store and get it cracked as nival doesn't deserve my money for releasing the game in this awful state.

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Unread postby juventas » 14 Jun 2006, 03:44

I hear RAM is more important than graphics card in this game. People with 1 gb+ say they get loading times of 2-4 sec.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Jun 2006, 06:45

juventas wrote:I hear RAM is more important than graphics card in this game. People with 1 gb+ say they get loading times of 2-4 sec.
That is correct.But after a few hours of standstill,or after quite a bit of saving,this can drag to a full minute.

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Unread postby Asjo » 14 Jun 2006, 09:15

Veldrynus wrote:Hey, it isn't fair to compare H4 with this piece of junk !

1) H4 had at least some basic AI.
2) H4 was released with an editor and more than 16 maps.
3) H4 wasn't a H3 clone.
4) H4 needed no supercomputers to run decently on minimal detail.
5) H4 was at least userfriendly.
These points seem a bit mindless to me. It's ture that Heroes 4 had more good things to it than what meets the eye, and that people mostly got a bad impression due to the non-existant AI. I find there's a chorus of growing numbers saying "Heroes 4 had this and that" and any opportunity. However, many things worked better in Heroes 3, something which the main proportion of the community seconds and which Nival have listened to.

1) The Heroes 4 AI was basically non-existent. The fact that it stayed in its town for 80% of the game made it terrible for fight. The Heroes 5 AI actually has quite a good potential once the worst bugs are fixed, and as of now it at least is much more aggressive and uses more tricks than the Heroes 4 AI. I knowns better how to mix armies and build its castle.

2) When Heroes 5 has an editor released this won't make any difference between the games. I could be a source of frustration, but not a point to somehow put Heroes 4 above Heroes 5.

3) The fact that Heroes 5 uses almost all the rules from Heroes 3 isn't a bad thing, but one of the things that helsp it be better than Heroes 4. I see no reason to use a derogatory term such as "clone" to describe it. Heroes 4 has many shortcomings (from the top of my head I can think of morale, siege, speel types), and by adopting the ideas of Heroes 3 instead, we are rid of those. Many developers mistakenly think that they have to change an entire game to make a new one. That's why I'm happy that Nival actually understand to stick to what works and what was liked. Many so-called newbies and superficial hero players loved Hereos 4, where the hardcore games and true hero fans loved Heroes 3. What we want is more of the same, not a complete change of the game. Unfortunately, graphics have probably taken much of Nival's time, but it has added a new feel to the game. At least we get the same universe with potential for improvement in AI, factions, spells and creatures, with many nice new touches that Nival have added into the game to improve on the beloved gameplay of Heroes 3.

4) I cannot comment directly on the performance seeing that I have a good computer. But I can only say "welcome the next generation of games" :)

5) Heroes 4 had as many problems with tool tips and Heroes 5, and notice, with no chance of them ever getting patched. If you are talking about the difficulties navigating around the adventure map, I must say that I had no problem overcoming this more or less over time.

While I have many things to critizise about Heroes 5, I don't see the point of mindless critique comparing this game to Heroes 4.

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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 14 Jun 2006, 10:19

Asjo wrote:Heroes 4 has many shortcomings (from the top of my head I can think of morale, siege, speel types), and by adopting the ideas of Heroes 3 instead, we are rid of those.
Problem is that H3 also had many shortcomings. Sieges, spell system, morale, to name a few :tongue: (though at least two of these have been improved now).Others were the tedium of having to have a hero walk around and visit every dwelling and windmill every week if one wished to make full use of them. Or the silly chaining and day 1 exploits. Or the fact that whoever moved first in battle could cast mass haste and obliterate half the enemy stacks with much smaller losses himself.
Many developers mistakenly think that they have to change an entire game to make a new one.


And some refuse to see obvious problems that should be adressed...
Many so-called newbies and superficial hero players loved Hereos 4, where the hardcore games and true hero fans loved Heroes 3. What we want is more of the same, not a complete change of the game.
Sigh. Why does this "true"/"real"/whatever fan argument always turn up? Anyone who loves any installation in the series is a fan. There isn't any scale that makes those who prefer H3 superior in any way to those who prefer H4.
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