Leak

[Znork]

Huh?! Capitalism isn't an inherent human right either.

So Robin Hood was wrong because the rich obtained their treasures legaly?!

Yes but his case was nobal dling a game cant be nobal!

[Bandobras Took]

Now, for the library argument -- do libraries still retain books in stock if an author requests that they not make their book available?

Only if the copyright is gone. And if the author is the one that owns the right to it. And my argument wasn't about libraries anyway.

Oh, then I'm forced to agree. Get the book from an approved source and read it; otherwise, I'm just as much against.

There is no inherent human right to play H5 simply because:

1) you can't wait another two weeks;
2) you can't afford it; or
3) it hasn't been distributed in your area.

Huh?! Capitalism isn't an inherent human right either.

That's okay, I wasn't arguing for capitalism. I was arguing for a creator's right to decide who should have posession of their work and on what conditions. Unfortunately, you kind of deleted that part of my post.

Obtaining a person's work in spite of their disapproval for any of the above reasons is wrong because you don't have a right to what you're getting; that right remains in the hands of the creators.

So Robin Hood was wrong because the rich obtained their treasures legaly?!

Yep. In fact, his men murdered a bunch of law enforcement officials who were just trying to do their jobs, come to think of it. His complaint was with the Sheriff/Prince John depending on the version of the story, but he took it out on a bunch of guards just trying to earn a living in the meantime. In the meantime, once Ubisoft starts forcibly extracting money from you in return for aboslutely nothing under threat of arms, maybe that argument will be relevant. In the meantime, you still haven't said anything about taking somebody's creative work when they don't want you to.

You should also note that if they would say it's ok then they'd lose the copyright so of course they dissaprove of this.

And if they lost the copyright, would it harm them? They disapprove because otherwise they'd be hurt. Except the people are saying it doesn't hurt anybody . . .

[ThunderTitan]

Oh, then I'm forced to agree. Get the book from an approved source and read it; otherwise, I'm just as much against.

Hmm... so if a family member bought a book you wouldn't read it coz you didn't pay for the right?

That's okay, I wasn't arguing for capitalism. I was arguing for a creator's right to decide who should have posession of their work and on what conditions. Unfortunately, you kind of deleted that part of my post.

What does that have to do with inherent human rights? And if you want to talk about creators and their work publishers aren't the people you should be defending. I'm sure there are alot of creators out there that don't own their work anymore, and hate what's being done to it.

Yep. In fact, his men murdered a bunch of law enforcement officials who were just trying to do their jobs, come to think of it. His complaint was with the Sheriff/Prince John depending on the version of the story, but he took it out on a bunch of guards just trying to earn a living in the meantime. In the meantime, once Ubisoft starts forcibly extracting money from you in return for aboslutely nothing under threat of arms, maybe that argument will be relevant.

You pay taxes?! Do the german soldiers that the Allies killed while fighting Hitler make the Allies wrong?! Were the Americans wrong for having a Revolution?! Is overpricing something getting something for nothing?

In the meantime, you still haven't said anything about taking somebody's creative work when they don't want you to.

Depends on the situation.

And if they lost the copyright, would it harm them? They disapprove because otherwise they'd be hurt. Except the people are saying it doesn't hurt anybody . . .

They'd be hurt if they didn't disapprove. I never said they shouldn't dissaprove, it's their right. If you buy the game anyway it doesn't really affect their bottom line.

[ThunderTitan]

I was under the impression that authors were paid a royalty in order for their books to be in libraries. But I freely admit I have done no research on this. I’ll go do that now.

OK, you people have some cool libraries.

[HMMFan]

I haven't read all 14 pages of responses, but for the hackers/warez folks, your action is immoral and wrong. It is, in many places, a crime. To provide any reason to justify your act is merely a rationalization, e.g. too expensive, want to try before I buy, etc. They are reasons but not excuses.

Even worse really, you should be embarrassed to show yourself amongst the people in this forum and most of the contributors here. The fans of H5 worked their butts off to get Starforce removed from the game. Now, you have gone ahead and provided Ubi and other game companies the rationalization to put it back in. And, quite honestly, I wouldn't blame them.

Thanks a lot. You should be ashamed.

[Wolfshanze]

Has anyone figured out that not ONE PERSON has changed their mind from when this thread started?

14 pages later and everyone still thinks the same way they did 14 pages ago.

I think it's safe to assume this thread isn't changing anyone's mind.

With that said... for the pirates out there who NOW have the FULL game, what are your thoughts!?!?!

[ThunderTitan]

I haven't read all 14 pages of responses, but for the hackers/warez folks, your action is immoral and wrong. It is, in many places, a crime. To provide any reason to justify your act is merely a rationalization, e.g. too expensive, want to try before I buy, etc. They are reasons but not excuses.

Even worse really, you should be embarrassed to show yourself amongst the people in this forum and most of the contributors here. The fans of H5 worked their butts off to get Starforce removed from the game. Now, you have gone ahead and provided Ubi and other game companies the rationalization to put it back in. And, quite honestly, I wouldn't blame them.

Thanks a lot. You should be ashamed.

Sure, because SF stops piracy very well. Lets not forget that cd-protection isn't the reason it was leaked before it was available in stores, lax employment policies were.

@Wolfshanze
Yeah, but our postcount changed...


@Bandobras Took
If you could really abstain yourself from d/l a certain game you really liked when it was the only way you could get it then you sir are a better man then I.

[Kalah]

for the pirates out there who NOW have the FULL game, what are your thoughts!?!?!

Actually, let's leave that unanswered.

For the record, I am changing the name of this thread to "the quoting thread".

[Wildbear]

I haven't read all 14 pages of responses, but for the hackers/warez folks, your action is immoral and wrong. It is, in many places, a crime.

It's fun for me to read some arguing that law defines it as a crime and others telling it isn't necessary to use the legal terms to talk about it.

Whatever, about what I quoted, if it is a crime in some countries, it isn't in other ones, so who is right? And if tomorrow or in a few years the law changes in your country to tell it isn't a crime anymore, will you still say it is one?

you still haven't said anything about taking somebody's creative work when they don't want you to.

Uh? They don't want anybody to play? Hmm... I'll correct it for you: "taking somebody's creative work when they don't want you to have it without paying".
Well it probably hurts the creator's feeling a bit in that case, it isn't raping him though.

This makes me think about what Michael Moore said when it's been known that one of his documentaries was being pirated:
"I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people as long as they’re not trying to make a profit off my labour. (...) The more people who see it the better, so I’m happy this is happening."

See, there are different opinions and different philosophies, not only among consumers but among creators as well.

I really think some people should reconsider their simplistic "it's immoral and wrong" ideas, I'm not telling anybody is to change his mind, but everybody should try to have a real answer to himself about it, not something the brainwashers tell us on a daily basis.

Again, I don't like people who play games and at the same time say it isn't worth buying them, this really annoys me, and piracy being a part of that process I don't support it. But I really think everybody should think more about what all this really means and stop to reduce and oversimplify everything.

[Kalah]

Moore's philosophy resembles that of the mapmakers, then...

[Bandobras Took]

@Bandobras Took
If you could really abstain yourself from d/l a certain game you really liked when it was the only way you could get it then you sir are a better man then I.

Cool, I'm a better man than you!

I'll make you a bargain: get a signed statement from everybody involved in creating Heroes 5 that they don't mind people downloading it for free, and I'll say it's okay.

Uh? They don't want anybody to play? Hmm... I'll correct it for you: "taking somebody's creative work when they don't want you to have it without paying".
Well it probably hurts the creator's feeling a bit in that case

I believe that was my original point, yes. However, it was more fully explained in the post preceding the one you quoted. I was merely summarizing for fear of the point being forgotten.

See, there are different opinions and different philosophies, not only among consumers but among creators as well.

So far, it seems like the opinion of the creators of H5 is, "Please pay for the game we made." Please, show something to the contrary. Otherwise it is wrong to not respect their wishes regarding the thing they've made.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Bandobras Took

Funny how you disregarded the point about the publishers legal right on a game,and the developers inherent right.Basically,pirates dont hurt the creators since they got their payment up front(well,this actually depends on the contract,but thats not the point)but they hurt the publisher.In the (stupid,btw) analogy about robin hood,they hurt those rich bastards that exploited the weak,but dont hurt the guards.

Basically,there are two types of pirates:The ones that steal the game and sell it,and the ones that steal the game and pass it on for free.The first ones are as bad as the publishers:They are taking loads of money from someone elses work,using the minimum effort.The second ones are more noble:They stand for the fact that every human knowledge should be free.After all,isnt that what internet was made for?

[Veldrynus]

See, there are different opinions and different philosophies, not only among consumers but among creators as well.

So far, it seems like the opinion of the creators of H5 is, "Please pay for the game we made." Please, show something to the contrary. Otherwise it is wrong to not respect their wishes regarding the thing they've made.

Yeah, sure. We all have wishes and opinions. Unfortunately, the reality does not always go along with them, so let us focus on the facts here. Morality is irrelevant, just like the feelings of certain individuals.

Yes. Piracy is stealing. Therefore, it is against the law in all countries, as far I can remember.

There is one practical problem in this system. The laws anlone, can hardly fight the piracy. In fact, they are mostly powerless and fail miserably in some countries. Guess, wich ones ? Not the "rich", western or north European countries, neither in the U.S.. Nope. It happens at places where people simply cannot afford to pay 50€ for a game. In some regions like these, the percentage of pirated games/music/movies is well over 90%...

It is all about the money.

Here is the realistic situation :
1) You have a computer and you like games.
2) The price of the games in your country is way to high. Let's say, 50% of your monthly income.
3) You can easily get the pirated version of every game for almost free.
4) There is almost no risk of being caught and penalized for using such games.
What would you do ? What would most people do ? The right answer is : Choosing the pirated games. There is no "evil" in this process. It is a simple examle on how individual interests work.

What if the laws would be able to stop piracy the hard way? The prices would still be way too high. The result : Noone would buy any games. The situation of the game makers would not improve at all. Sure, they might feel a little happy about it. "Nobody steals our precious product!".

But, there is the another side of the coin. With no "free" programs/games/music, most people of those countries would not buy computers and especially not the expensive ones. The new situation would be very bad for the hardware business. They would be forced to increase prices even more and only companies and very rich people could buy computers. Results : the gap between the rich and poor countries/people even more increased...
Honestly, how good is this ? The overall situation of people would become worse, because the sum of total gains is less than the sum of total losses. This means reduced general happiness !

Even if piracy is illegal, we cannot deny its positive effects.

[Thelonious]

Now for all of you who are downloading it and buying it 'afterwards', please, why would you?

Because it isn't available in stores maybe?

Then why make the notion of buying it at all. Now I've got nothing against people who can't get a copy, do understand that. I won't say it's legal for them, but I for one think those people should be 'allowed' to get their hands on a copy that way.

I've got something against people who can buy the game, but decide to download it first to 'check it out'. As you said later on they are numerous reason to buy the game, but I've once had such a situation myself. I could have bought the game afterwards, but I just didn't. Why? Because there'll be cracks for the patches, and you'll get to lazy to buy the game.

The only ones who are truly doing something wrong IMHO are people who are able to afford -and get their hands on- an original copy without spending half their income on it. And most people on these bords are able to do so if I'm correct. Add that to the fact that we are fans of the series, and then there is no reason why you shouldn't buy the game (if you want it, that is, because there will always be those people who oppose to this game)

[Ethric]

What he said

And to those whose posts I deleted below: keep on topic

[Wildbear]

So far, it seems like the opinion of the creators of H5 is, "Please pay for the game we made." Please, show something to the contrary. Otherwise it is wrong to not respect their wishes regarding the thing they've made.

You ask me to prove the contrary to something you didn't prove yourself. Maybe they just want "as many people as possible" to pay for the game. Actually they already know that in a family different persons will play the game, and only one will have paid for it. So do you think they don't want the other members of the family to play the game? They didn't pay for it after all.

[ThunderTitan]

I've got something against people who can buy the game, but decide to download it first to 'check it out'. As you said later on they are numerous reason to buy the game, but I've once had such a situation myself. I could have bought the game afterwards, but I just didn't. Why? Because there'll be cracks for the patches, and you'll get to lazy to buy the game.

See there, your asumming something about ur fellow man. Ur just asumming he won't buy the game even if he said so. Yeah, if he really likes the game and then doesn't buy it when he can easily afford it he's a jackass. But just assuming he's one from the getgo isn't very nice of you.


And about hurting the publishers feelings: ur kiding me, right. Remind me never to let you run a business. You should also never apply for a job because ur gonna hurt those guys that didn't get it because you did.

[ThunderTitan]

So do you think they don't want the other members of the family to play the game? They didn't pay for it after all.

Of course they would. It's still intelectual theft. They can't admit that because then everybody would realise what assholes they are.

[Bandobras Took]

Yeah, sure. We all have wishes and opinions. Unfortunately, the reality does not always go along with them, so let us focus on the facts here. Morality is irrelevant, just like the feelings of certain individuals.

I think that sums it up for me: a complete disregard for morality and the feelings of others is wrong. On the other hand, people who don't believe that aren't likely to change their mind in a hurry.

4) There is almost no risk of being caught and penalized for using such games.
What would you do ? What would most people do ? The right answer is : Choosing the pirated games. There is no "evil" in this process. It is a simple examle on how individual interests work.

Wrong. I would not. I actually have a sense of morals, even if a majority of the world feels it's irrelevant. And of course if you declare that morality is irrelevant, there's going to be no "evil." But I disagree that morality is irrelevant here.

Even if piracy is illegal, we cannot deny its positive effects.

You just changed terminology, but your argument is still "piracy is good, not evil." If "Morality is irrelevant" then you can't say that any act has better or worse effects.

Anyway, enough of that.

One slight footnote, and I'm done:

I just looked at the Frozen Throne EULA, and it allows you to put one copy of the game on a computer. It also forbids renting or making money off of having the game on your computer. It forbids having multiple copies of the game on different computers.

But nowhere does it forbid having someone else play the game on your computer while you're reading a book. I guess the family's still in, unless you charge them money to play games on the family computer.

[King Imp]

Not being able to afford a game, or anything else in this world, is not excuse for being a thief. Suck it up and accept that you can't have certain things you spoiled brats.