Leak

[DaemianLucifer]

Yes you are making a good point and yes its one of the problems. I belive it should be handeled, but the cost of making game are enormus. but the price of the game dosent justefy piracy.If cant efford it dont buy it, i know its a hard sell but if you cant efford a car do you have the right to steel it?

Prices of making a game are not enourmous.Of those 50$ per copy,only 10$ goes to the actual making of a game.Others are just marketing,and profit for various dealers and the company itself.Besides,I gave you a program that has a new version every two years,yet is cheap.Tell me,why arent the prices for it enourmous?

[Gaidal Cain]

Why pay when you can get something for free? <-- This is it! The magical question!

Because there is no such thing as a free lunch? Someone, somwhere, put effort into making the game. If that someone did it once and didn't get the payoff he expected when making it, you can be pretty sure he won't do it again. Thus, you've gotten one "free" game now, but lost another one down the line...

[Ethric]

THIS THING HAS BEEN DONE A MILLION TIMES BEFORE AND WILL BE DONE MILLION TIMES AFTER HEROES 5!!! And I still can't see that world has crumbled because of piracy or any of you demagogues here poor and out on the street.

The world has indeed not crumbled because of pirating software and similar. Not has it crumbled from a staggering number of wars, nuclear weapons and pizza with sardines. Your argument is pointless, it's like saying piracy isn't wrong because the sky hasn't turned green. There is no connection.

Why pay when you can get something for free? <-- This is it! The magical question!

Because if you take for free what it's rightful owners doesn't want you to have for free you are a thief. Don't pretend that what you do is honest. Fine, be a thief, but own up to it.

Are all the mods speaking their own mind or are they following "guidelines"? Wondering since they all have the same stance on this subject.

No-one's being forced to say anything they don't want to, I assure you.

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. Software piracy is not based on the transfer of an object that would remove it from its owner, but on a copying process that let the original intact.

You are still, through your own deliberate actions, putting into your posession something that you do not have the right to posess. What is that if not theft? Sure, it is also copyright infringement. But that's just a specialised form of theft.

[Znork]

Yes you are making a good point and yes its one of the problems. I belive it should be handeled, but the cost of making game are enormus. but the price of the game dosent justefy piracy.If cant efford it dont buy it, i know its a hard sell but if you cant efford a car do you have the right to steel it?

Prices of making a game are not enourmous.Of those 50$ per copy,only 10$ goes to the actual making of a game.Others are just marketing,and profit for various dealers and the company itself.Besides,I gave you a program that has a new version every two years,yet is cheap.Tell me,why arent the prices for it enourmous?

Yes the price issue is a relevant part of the debate but it dosent justefy piracy!

So ill answer you this i agree thye charge to muche for the game, yes they could do it bether, but homm v is not on of the most expancive game anyway! But this is a debate you should bring to the ubi forum, ubisoft has proved time after time then they do listen!

[Ethric]

Yeah, even if you could say that games cost to much it still doesn't justify anything. Games are a luxury item, you don't go around stealing Porsches just because you want one but think they cost to much.

[Orfinn]

What an interesting discussion this is and it could go on forever
Well stealing is wrong no matter the reason, well except as someone said stealing f.ex food for survival. Games arent needed to live on, you can live without it so theres no freaking reason to steal a game!! But hey I forgot we are living in a crazed up world, it may be to late and to complicated to do anything about piracy, other crimes, war, bad politics religion etc and remove them from the surface of the world but anyway, all the bad things that happens on Tellus is a part of something better or worse, we just have to live with it for now and make the best out of every situation either good or bad.

Sry if I was skywalking I just had to let it out

[Mitzah]

I hope the version available on the torrent sites is not the actual one because I heard it has no editor...

[Thelonious]

And this laptop cost you what exactly?

Nothing, because my parents gave it to me. I'm 17, at that age, you don't have a lot of money at hand all the time.

And really, some people actually work on their computers, that is why they get cash from their work to buy one. as for the $100, well most probably no-one here will earn that, but there certainly are people who earn that much.

All in all you just don't seem to get it: producers are able to make a game cheaper and still earn money from them.

If you're really interested check this, or this

Now, do you still think that we're complaining about nothing?

[Infiltrator]

I hope the version available on the torrent sites is not the actual one because I heard it has no editor...

The editor will become aviable via download once the game goes live (officially)

As for piracy. Daemian and I live in fellow countries and I know how hard it is to get your hands on an original game here (not sure about serbia but in montenegro I have to rely on someone from the outside). But I will say that pirating is wrong, I don't mind paying 50$ for a good game because otherwise I will be letting down all the people that have made it come true. Sure, you can say it can cost you 10$, but honestly, you won't be buying games every day. Good games are so rare today (the golden age for the PC was the late 90s, imo) you can hardly have one come out in a month. I don't owe my money to the marketing and the comany, but I do own it to the developer team, and if have to spend a bit more to make up for their hard work, I won't mind at all.

[Arzang]

When people are ***** and moaning like babies that they can't afford a single game, but have no problem coming up with the money to pay for the device used to play that single game, it is a very valid argument.

first read what DaemianLucifer said. and then also think about the fact that if you buy a lot of pc games you'll soon end up with a library more expensive than the computer. OUCH in my wallet I say.

People are complaining that they can't afford a single game ($50) and that's why they are illegally downloading it, but by some miraculous happening they had absolutely no problem finding that $1000 to $2000 to pay for a computer. The reasoning is ridiculous on the thieves' part.

WHOA. a cpu for 100 dollars? I bought mine for approximately 600. and it isn't even mine; it's my mom's and I bought it off of her later for about 300. and a game costs 30-50.

Put another way, you don't get off with shoplifting just because you intend to pay in another two weeks. Until you've purchased something from somebody, you don't have the right to their property -- intellectual or otherwise. You have taken it from them without their consent.

I know it's not a part of what I quoted but that comparison with rape is not even funny. I hope you understand yourself that stealing intellectual property in NO WAY can be compared to rape.

And let's say I download the game and pay upon release. could you tell me exactly who suffers any harm? ANY harm?

oh and let me just add; if I had not downloaded the game I would have cancelled my pre-order. I don't like to gamble and paying 400 SEK for something I might like is what I call gambling.[/quote]

[DaemianLucifer]

As for piracy. Daemian and I live in fellow countries and I know how hard it is to get your hands on an original game here (not sure about serbia but in montenegro I have to rely on someone from the outside). But I will say that pirating is wrong, I don't mind paying 50$ for a good game because otherwise I will be letting down all the people that have made it come true. Sure, you can say it can cost you 10$, but honestly, you won't be buying games every day. Good games are so rare today (the golden age for the PC was the late 90s, imo) you can hardly have one come out in a month. I don't owe my money to the marketing and the comany, but I do own it to the developer team, and if have to spend a bit more to make up for their hard work, I won't mind at all.

Fellow countries?As far as I know,it still bears one name

Anyhow,there are two companies in my city I know of that provide with original titles.One rents them and the other sells them.Other cities,Im not sure of.

[Infiltrator]

Politics is something that I care about as much as last winter's snow, so interpret my statement any way you like and let's not go into that.

I'd consider myself lucky if I had a distrubutor which sells original games in my town.

[Kalah]

Well, as long as you have a mail service, you can always order it online...

[Pitsu]

first read what DaemianLucifer said. and then also think about the fact that if you buy a lot of pc games you'll soon end up with a library more expensive than the computer. OUCH in my wallet I say.

If you buy a lot of cars you finally need to hire someone else to drive them and the gas / warranty bills will be enormous. The question now: how many cars you really need, how many can you affor, and how many would you like to have?

I hope you understand yourself that stealing intellectual property in NO WAY can be compared to rape.

I could make an user account named Arzang and start posting whatever I want under that name. You are smart to not have chosen an avatar, which makes it a bit less fun though...

Edit: BTW, mind to lend me your passport for some moment+ You will have it back, I just need a few numbers to help out a poor tchetchenian immigrant with no ID...

[DaemianLucifer]

Well, as long as you have a mail service, you can always order it online...

For that you need a credit card.Not something easily available here as well.

[Wildbear]

You are still, through your own deliberate actions, putting into your posession something that you do not have the right to posess. What is that if not theft? Sure, it is also copyright infringement. But that's just a specialised form of theft.

Theft means you remove the property from its owner, which doesn't happen with software and data piracy. It isn't theft from a legal point of view (in most country, maybe not in yours, you can check but I doubt it's the way you tell), because it doesn't fit the description of theft given by law, therefore it isn't theft, period.

It has a different name and is punished differently. I never said it's ok to get software that way, but only that it has to be named correctly.

[Infiltrator]

Well, as long as you have a mail service, you can always order it online...

As Daemian says, credit card business is slugish here, and as for the postal service, don't let me start into that, it has to be the worst ever, in short

[Bandobras Took]

I know it's not a part of what I quoted but that comparison with rape is not even funny. I hope you understand yourself that stealing intellectual property in NO WAY can be compared to rape.

It wasn't meant to be. I was serious. I said the difference was only one of degree, not of kind. Both acts believe that a person's own immediate gratification is better than the well-being of others.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, a game producer has no way to know if people who get pirated copies also buy the legal version of the game. In other words, the year or two of work, including the weeks if not months of overtime, don't mean squat because there's apparently a large market out there that's not paying for the game. Which for the average employee means that the company has a riskier future, which leads to less benefits as well as lower paychecks. Unless, of course, you're so naive as to believe that a CEO will take a paycut.

Making it harder to support a family.

Forget the economics, though.

If I'd worked my butt off for two years or so only to find that people didn't respect that work enough to honor my wishes, I'd be hurt. Emotionally.

Who does it hurt?

Whenever you do something against the wishes of another person, you're going to hurt them, obviously. In which case, the question becomes whether it's forgiveable. In the case of computer game piracy, the "I can't afford it" argument completely fails to justify dumping on another's years' worth of effort. So does the "I'm going to buy it anyway" argument. I'm disinclined to believe that computer games come under the heading of "necessary for survival."

[Ethric]

), because it doesn't fit the description of theft given by law, therefore it isn't theft, period.

You can search around for laws saying (or not saying) all sort of silly things. I wasn't referring to the laws of any country, I was just saying that it is a form of theft. As is most crime. Murder is the theft of life, kidnapping the theft of freedom, etc.

What's that? No I wasn't saying it was just as bad as piracy.

[Wildbear]

I disagree with you Ethric, a crime has to be named and defined by law before you can blame anyone for it. Take the 7th article of the european convention on human rights for example:
"No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed."
You can't say people are stealing things if they aren't according to law, they wouldn't understand and it would be unfair.

So what happens if you don't name a crime by its legal name? People just don't see the offence, because it is not the offence you're talking about. But if you name a crime by its name the link between the offence and the acts is clear.

And murder is not the theft of life for non-vampires and non-necromancers, it's its removal