Unofficial balancing patch between upgrades v 0.35

[Lubomir]

@ Lubomir

Since I'm more the adventurer, I was talking with what I call a Battle-Master, and he shared this thought;

"As a starting point, might be a good idea would be to see what albolabris & Elvin did on their respective "modded" duel/arena maps, they've thought through a lot already."

Here's one link, should you want to investigate further. As I said, I'm not a duel-type of player but since this map and it's changes were well accepted by the community, it should be a very good resource for your efforts and should represent to some degree the opinions of a lot of serious players.

Elvin's map
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=34559

Thanks a lot. I will use some of his ideas into the next version of my patch. Now I can't wait for people to try it down along with me. His alterations are decent and are close to what some people in here have already been suggesting. Like Wind dancer speed deff boost reduction to 1 from 2. He also altered spells, like slow/haste.. again I am not trying to balance whole game, I am only balancing upgrades. And I do so without removing Nival's decisions. My patch shouldn't touch the game a lot.

[mr.hackcrag]

And I do so without removing Nival's decisions..

My initial reaction without having played the patch:

It seems like giving Inferno a 50% Armageddon strategy is pretty hefty change of Nival's decisions.

Like Markur said, many variables influence which upgrade is best. For example Lord's are nice on smaller maps and better against high level units, while the other one is better on large maps and better against low level units.

To me, the biggest deterrent to choosing Lords is their low movement radius. +1 movement instead would make a big difference.


I don't understand the Necropolis changes at all. Archlich's area attack disrupts Sylvan and Academy from grouping in the corner and they have a good spells. The no melee penalty and HP boost is just overkill. This is a no brainer choice now.

As for skeletons, it doesn't matter so much whether you choose Archer or Warriors when you have legions of them from Necromancy.


The Arcane Archers needed the nerfs, but they look like some heavy handed nerfs.

The rest seems okay on paper. Now if only someone could make a balance patch for Runes.

[Lubomir]

And I do so without removing Nival's decisions..

My initial reaction without having played the patch:

It seems like giving Inferno a 50% Armageddon strategy is pretty hefty change of Nival's decisions.

Like Markur said, many variables influence which upgrade is best. For example Lord's are nice on smaller maps and better against high level units, while the other one is better on large maps and better against low level units.

To me, the biggest deterrent to choosing Lords is their low movement radius. +1 movement instead would make a big difference.


I don't understand the Necropolis changes at all. Archlich's area attack disrupts Sylvan and Academy from grouping in the corner and they have a good spells. The no melee penalty and HP boost is just overkill. This is a no brainer choice now.

As for skeletons, it doesn't matter so much whether you choose Archer or Warriors when you have legions of them from Necromancy.


The Arcane Archers needed the nerfs, but they look like some heavy handed nerfs.

The rest seems okay on paper. Now if only someone could make a balance patch for Runes.

Hi . Maybe we can call it hefty change, maybe we can't depends on if Nival ever considered Inferno having Armageddon strategy. There is no way for me of knowing that, I only see these burning creatures from deepest hells having no immunity to fire and yet I see Inferno rated as the poorest town, poorest start most of all. And yes yes yes I do not mean to balance the towns overall, this was all only idea how to make these 3 creatures more useful, more pickable. Now let us try Inferno as it is, will we not? I definitely feel like giving at least two creatures fire-immunity. With demon I am convinced already - it's funny that exploding creature could be harmed by fire.


With Archlich what you say makes sense, it might get changed for the next version. But you know lich masters having rise dead spell? And it helps a lot in creeping having one more "ressourector" in the army.

Anyway thanks for reaction, don't you want to start a multiplayer game?

[mr.hackcrag]

I can't seem to download the file.

I make a check mark on the file, but when I click on the download button (I assume it's the picture of the computer in the bottom left) it asks me to download some rapidshare manager or something.

[parcaleste]

Click the "v" and than two times on the bar with the file (I've managed to figure it out by accident).

[Lubomir]

Yes. downloading can be a bit tricky. Thank you for helping me test it though, I have found one mistake I did - Archlich has initiative 11 instead of 10, I will correct it to the next version.

I spent yesterday testing, my patch doesn't seem to affect the game too much, but I haven't tried Inferno yet.

There are few suggestions to the next version:

- Archlich removed no-malee penalty
- Crossbowman inititave 7 from 8 (simulates long reloading time )
- Nightmare defence 20 instead of 18
- Pit lord will no longer have armageddon spell if it shows up to be an overkill. Armageddon strategy may not be an overkill with succubus misstress, demon and pit lord - these three aren't that strong, dwarves are much better. Fire immunity seems like nice add-on, since I am not planing to add speed. To me they should stay slow, in contrast with pit spawns. I do want them to be different. But they still may get slight mana boost or some new spell.
- dryad speed lowered from 7 to 6.
- druid elder advanced stone spikes from basic
- high druid may get its initiative back to 10 from 9, depends on testing
- savage treant - hp 171 from 175
- Brisk raider att/deff 13/11 instead of 12/9
- elemental gargoyle - dmg 1-1 instead of 1-2
- battlemage advanced fist of wrat instead of basic
- Djin vizier att/deff 12/12 instead of 13/13
- Sky daughter advanced lighting mastery
- foul wyvern initiative 11 from 10

I was using Elvin's changes in his good old temple tourney.

[markkur]

I'll wait and test the next version.

One thought; I think making all Inferno fire-proof or at least resistant makes sense. I always thought it's strange they have no immunity. Why Nival went that way Idk, but a guess it might be, it made them too strong against Dungeon? That might be a load of rubbish though; they might have just tinkered with stats like Elvin, yourself and others have, in trying to get what seems right.<L>

Btw, <imvho>If the downloads are a hassle I'd go Mediafire at least so far I've had no complaints, since you can hover the cursor and see the link.

[mr.hackcrag]

I think immune to fire makes sense on Inferno, I just don't think it's good enough to justify choosing the alternate upgrades. I would still choose the grey versions of the units even if they had immune to fire. As for Armageddon, I don't think that would be a good spell for Pit Lord to use in most situations. She needs something better.

Yes Lubomir, I'd also like to test the next version.

Does Elvin's patch only apply to his map?

[Lubomir]

I'll wait and test the next version.

One thought; I think making all Inferno fire-proof or at least resistant makes sense. I always thought it's strange they have no immunity. Why Nival went that way Idk, but a guess it might be, it made them too strong against Dungeon? That might be a load of rubbish though; they might have just tinkered with stats like Elvin, yourself and others have, in trying to get what seems right.<L>

Btw, <imvho>If the downloads are a hassle I'd go Mediafire at least so far I've had no complaints, since you can hover the cursor and see the link.

Thanks, mediafile link here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/ch6h2 ... hanics.rar

I corrected Archlich's initiative to 10.

I too have no idea why no creature from Inferno is fireproof or resistant. What I do see however is Nival's decision "NOT TO TOUCH" first upgrades. They believed that in time the second upgrades showed up players have been too used for the first upgrades, so one of the managers strictly forbade doing any changes.

Unfortunate, I have to say. They tried to upgrade some creatures (vampires, elves, Rhakshas) so they made very good alternative upgrade and without possibly of altering the first one - the result is as it is today, with us at the moment trying to change it .

------

mr.hack - does this mean you'd like to throw a multiplayer map? You know it will cost us lots of time... but we may have nice time. I'd like 4 players including myslef. I do not think my patch will apply to his map, since his map alters the same stats as my patch - they will be in conflict!

[Variol]

I feel the same way about undead. They should be totally immune to weak of plague, plague tents etc.

[mr.hackcrag]

I would like to play an online match, but the time is a concern for me and I prefer smaller maps.

I agree with Variol, but there would have to be another week that slaughters undeads.

[Variol]

Yeah, I think a week of "cleansing" or something, which would not affect Haven and Sylvan for example.

[mr.hackcrag]

Whatever happened with this patch?

[markkur]

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39545

[mr.hackcrag]

Is seems like this patch was dropped.

Does anyone know of any other respectable balance patches out there?

[Lubomir]

Is seems like this patch was dropped.

Does anyone know of any other respectable balance patches out there?

No, it was NOT dorpped. I was travelling some. I read your feedback, proceeded into new version.

• Changes in version 0.35:
  
  Academy
  • Battlemage
    Spell fist highered mastery to advanced from basic.
    Djin Vizier
    att/deff 12/12 instead of 13/13
  Dungenon
  • Brisk raider
    att/deff 13/11 instead of 12/9
  Heaven
  • Crossbowman
    inititave 7 from 8
    Power/exp 197/19 instead of 201/20
  Inferno
  • Nightmare
    defence 20 instead of 18
    Power/exp 1425/100 instead of 1415/100
  Sylvan
  • Dryad
    Speed 6 instead of 7
    Power/exp 163/16 instead of 174/16
    Druid eldar
    Advanced stone spikes
    Power/exp 850/62 instead of 846/62
    Savage Treant
    Hp 172 instead of 175
    Power/exp 2027/136 instead of 2032/136
  Stronghold]
  • Sky daughter
    Advanced chain lighting instead of basic
    Power/exp 685/54 instead of 680/54
  • Foul Wywern
    Initiative 11 from 10. No more always Paokai.
    Power/exp 2584/161 instead of 2571/160

Code: Select all

https://www.mediafire.com/?5hi8f4wz7sj58j9

[zaio-baio]

Hi, nice to see that you updated your mod. Will share my thoughts shortly.

• Changes in version 0.35:
  
  Academy
  • Battlemage
    Spell fist highered mastery to advanced from basic.
    Djin Vizier
    att/deff 12/12 instead of 13/13

No need to boost the fist spell imo. Those battle mages are ment to be used lategame for shooting.
That nerf on the Djinn Viziers seems ok.

Dungenon

• Brisk raider
  att/deff 13/11 instead of 12/9

Seems ok too.

Heaven

• Crossbowman
  inititave 7 from 8
  Power/exp 197/19 instead of 201/20

It nerfs havens earlygame ( thats not that good anyways) and it forces the player to start with vittorio. Better nerf their dmg potential.
Inferno

• Nightmare
  defence 20 instead of 18
  Power/exp 1425/100 instead of 1415/100

They already have - 1 initiative, i would rather not touch them.

Sylvan

• Dryad
  Speed 6 instead of 7
  Power/exp 163/16 instead of 174/16
  Druid eldar
  Advanced stone spikes
  Power/exp 850/62 instead of 846/62
  Savage Treant
  Hp 172 instead of 175
  Power/exp 2027/136 instead of 2032/136

That dryad nerf is fine.
It better to neft the High druids, their channeling ability is broken.
No need to nerf the Savage treants, they arent as useful as the basic upgrage.

Stronghold]

• Sky daughter
  Advanced chain lighting instead of basic
  Power/exp 685/54 instead of 680/54

• Foul Wywern
  Initiative 11 from 10. No more always Paokai.
  Power/exp 2584/161 instead of 2571/160

[/list]

The boost of the sky daughers seems fine, same for the Wywerns. Paokais retaliation strike is bugged, it deals full dmg on all stacks. Thats the main reason ppl like them . The scavenger ability is also useful.

[Lubomir]

Thanks for your reply. I believe you got what's my patch about. Many people write to me about balancing whole towns or levels whatsoever. I am not balancing the game! I do like some inbalancness, in a way it is acceptable and fun. All what I do is, I am making both upgrades somehow useful.

Always.

Based on your feedback, I am considering these updates for the next version:
- high druid has already been nerfed, see previous changes, it now has initiative 9 and not 10.
- crossbowman - taking back initiative to 8.