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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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ThunderTitan
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 28 Sep 2010, 10:02

tress wrote: Actually in each battle he could double his army, after each victory, if we consider that he could raise them all.Also he could probably salvage some of destroyed troops(in homm5 they have eternal servitude for it)
But main thing I argue is that energy that moves non sentient undead(can assume liches/vampires drain energy to support them) cant last forever without some source of outer source. I could accept they could act nearly forever by working in some crypt that or some other such place but generally that would be feeding of place. There is no way to assume that they can work forever just like that. They probably need some upkeep too so their hands dont fall off.
If a crypt works why wouldn't anywhere where things die work?! And the world is full of dead things.

And again you're assuming there would be enough corpses that qualify and that the necromancer has enough time to raise every fallen foe. (and we're assuming that it was a battle like in HoMM, where every unit dies, while in RL the loser's troops would actually scatter and run and it was rare for them to actually get slaughtered, so much so that troops where renowned for centuries if they did that)


This aspect is often commented in D&D books that deals in adventure writing. Main thing is that magic in world that is not REALLY high on magic, gap between regular folk and nobles/adventurers(in homm case soldiers) is so big that they cant afford magical support in everyday life. Generally it was assumed that commoner for low job gets 1silver/day while lowest level spell potion or scroll coated at least 25 gold(1 gold - 10 silver)
Eberron does fine... and the rest of D&D is damn discriminative when it comes to that... and unrealistic. Once i get my hands on a wish spell i could pretty much fix hunger in the world, help with wage discrimination and resource scarcity... i guess all lvl 18+ Wizards are giant selfish pricks though.

Heck, seeing how much money an adventurer would inject into the regular economy by just using the gold from one adventure their economic models makes no sense.

100 Gold would be the medium income over 3 years... and some spells cost 25k (250000 years of work). One could probably buy a kingdom for that and wizards use those spells plenty of times.

And spell scrolls don't count for Clerics who's power is a gift from the gods and using Change Weather a few times a year would be exactly what a Cleric serving a LG god should be doing as downtime.

And lets not mention how Alchemists could easily invent better fertilizers and sell them to the nobility, who would really benefit from better crops because they could feed their peasant and have even more left over to sell etc.

Even if spells would be super expensive they would still impact every day life in such a way that it would be very different then how our society was when it was structured the same way in RL.
In our days thanks to that, humans are already overrunning the world. Our count have tripled since ww2.
WW2 depleted the population so duh. But that's what i said already... in RL we've already done that.
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Unread postby Tress » 28 Sep 2010, 10:32

Once i get my hands on a wish spell i could pretty much fix hunger in the world, help with wage discrimination and resource scarcity
You cant imagine how ripped off I felt when I red actual wish limitations in d&d handbook, well it have option to ask for something more but it is pretty much challenge to game master to pervert that wish.

Heck, seeing how much money an adventurer would inject into the regular economy by just using the gold from one adventure their economic models makes no sense.
Apart from looting adventurers arent really producing much, so in the end its just money redealing. Guess evil overlords, necromancers, demonologists, 400 year old green dragons and etc are producing most GDP in the end.
100 Gold would be the medium income over 3 years... and some spells cost 25k (250000 years of work). One could probably buy a kingdom for that and wizards use those spells plenty of times.
No sh#@ that +5 sword could feed whole lot of starving families, but I haven't seen any paladin who are so bent on worlds welfare donate it to orphans.
If a crypt works why wouldn't anywhere where things die work?! And the world is full of dead things.
That would be example of assumption I would accept in fiction. For example it would be ok if for some reason aura in crypts, or such place would bolster undead, hoverer even such place would have to eventually expire. After all that place must take its power from somewhere too.
Lets say for example that some terrible battlefield that bolsters undead troops that fight there - fair enough, but I cant logically assume that such effect will last forever without outer interference. If such effects would be permanent they would overfill the world eventually, and unless it have happened I must assume that at least for common level of magic fundamental laws of physic applies. After all most fantasy worlds doesn't support endless sources of power, and if they would it would heavily affect world, but even single undead that wouldn't need outer power source or upkeep would be considered as such.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 29 Sep 2010, 09:03

tress wrote: You cant imagine how ripped off I felt when I red actual wish limitations in d&d handbook, well it have option to ask for something more but it is pretty much challenge to game master to pervert that wish.
The limitations don't even come into play... just being able to create an object worth 25k gold once a day would effect the local economy greatly. It would be like if i was able to make 1 million dollars appear out of thin air...

tress wrote: Apart from looting adventurers arent really producing much, so in the end its just money redealing. Guess evil overlords, necromancers, demonologists, 400 year old green dragons and etc are producing most GDP in the end.
You don't understand economy...

The dragon hoarding all that money (or it being hidden in some ruins) means it doesn't affect the normal economy, but once a hero takes possession of it and starts using it then it spread around and there's more money to be had so people can pay more for stuff thus bringing prices up, which would also bring wages up etc. Unless the guy selling weapons to you is just hoarding the money too so evil adventurers can kill him for it.

Finding gold today doesn't affect inflation because our money is fiat-money, but gold prices do get affected.


No sh#@ that +5 sword could feed whole lot of starving families, but I haven't seen any paladin who are so bent on worlds welfare donate it to orphans.
Well he can justify it because that sword could also help stop someone from destroying the world or doing even worse stuff to those families, but there are other things he could do for little cost, like make clean water.
tress wrote:
That would be example of assumption I would accept in fiction. For example it would be ok if for some reason aura in crypts, or such place would bolster undead, hoverer even such place would have to eventually expire. After all that place must take its power from somewhere too.
Lets say for example that some terrible battlefield that bolsters undead troops that fight there - fair enough, but I cant logically assume that such effect will last forever without outer interference. If such effects would be permanent they would overfill the world eventually, and unless it have happened I must assume that at least for common level of magic fundamental laws of physic applies.
Once again, there are plenty of other reasons why the undead aren't overfilling the world, like the necromancer that made them being killed and his now mentally retarded armies being easy pickings, and the fact that one necromancer can only raise so many undead in any period of time etc.

And i already said that in practicality the undead being powered by a source that only lasts 1000 years is the same as one that it forever when it comes to necromancers snowballing everyone with a huge army etc.

What you are suggesting is that the limit is way lower then 1000 years, or even 100 because if it wasn't and we ignore all the other limitations i mentioned (like you are) even 100 would be enough to overrun the planet (we went from 2 to 6 billion in less).
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Unread postby Tress » 29 Sep 2010, 09:42

The limitations don't even come into play... just being able to create an object worth 25k gold once a day would effect the local economy greatly. It would be like if i was able to make 1 million dollars appear out of thin air...
Considering it costs 5k xp to cast, - selling fragment of soul for wish it is kinda limitng its use. Think rule of thumb was 5 gold/per xp point when you were establishing prices of npc in 3E D&D(that is actually why magic items that you can gain through wish is 25k(5gold x5k XP)). There is awfully lot of strings attached to wish spell, starting xp cost and ending with djins that are plain jerks.
You don't understand economy...

The dragon hoarding all that money
Well can argue that dragons and etc are using it's money to hire their goon squads and buy weapons from city dwellings, and so money is left there in the end, but anyway economic model in no fantasy rpg have ever made much sense, its mostly for gameplay and balance purposes.
What you are suggesting is that the limit is way lower then 1000 years, or even 100 because if it wasn't and we ignore all the other limitations i mentioned (like you are) even 100 would be enough to overrun the planet (we went from 2 to 6 billion in less).
They could be active for billion years for all I care, but what I am mostly arguing is that they cant be self sufficient for any extended period of time. Just like buildings, if they are left alone, they would fall in disrepair and fall over eventually.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Oct 2010, 12:37

tress wrote: Considering it costs 5k xp to cast, - selling fragment of soul for wish it is kinda limitng its use. Think rule of thumb was 5 gold/per xp point when you were establishing prices of npc in 3E D&D(that is actually why magic items that you can gain through wish is 25k(5gold x5k XP)). There is awfully lot of strings attached to wish spell, starting xp cost and ending with djins that are plain jerks.
XP can be gained by simply doing stuff... so that's not your soul, it's more like you're selling some knowledge... which you can get back.

And the Wish spells can make items worth 25K gold with no strings attached... it only gets hairy if you try to do more. But that is enough i'd say.

But i guess all Wizards and Sorcerers are miserly bastards.
Well can argue that dragons and etc are using it's money to hire their goon squads and buy weapons from city dwellings, and so money is left there in the end, but anyway economic model in no fantasy rpg have ever made much sense, its mostly for gameplay and balance purposes.
Even if they used some money them keeping hoards of treasure which then all of a sudden would all go back into the economy every other adventure would have visible effects.

Even if it would only affect the economy of nobles (if we think of it as separate then that of the commoners) it would would have social effects for sure.
They could be active for billion years for all I care, but what I am mostly arguing is that they cant be self sufficient for any extended period of time. Just like buildings, if they are left alone, they would fall in disrepair and fall over eventually.
Undead already fell to disrepair... being dead and all. But wear-and-tear is not the same as having a limited amount of energy powering them for only a few years, months etc. but is closer to being hit with a weapon... so there's no need for a short lasting "battery" for undead...

And there are buildings that have lasted a long time, and on the opposite side even the most cared for building will eventually need extensive replacing of parts until you have replaced it all.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 01 Oct 2010, 16:14

ThunderTitan wrote: Undead already fell to disrepair... being dead and all. But wear-and-tear is not the same as having a limited amount of energy powering them for only a few years, months etc. but is closer to being hit with a weapon... so there's no need for a short lasting "battery" for undead...

And there are buildings that have lasted a long time, and on the opposite side even the most cared for building will eventually need extensive replacing of parts until you have replaced it all.
But if undead fall into disrepair, they must need some kind of resource to keep them from falling apart.

In Heroes IV, Kalibarr, Gauldoth's Liche master is falling apart because of a lack of some sort of magical energy.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Unread postby Roman » 01 Oct 2010, 16:35

I don't like the idea that they have reduced the number of resources from 7 to 4, but having 7 resources is not a crucial feature for me, so I can live with that. But yeah, this particular change is definitely a strike against HOMM 6 rather than in favor of it.

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Unread postby MattII » 01 Oct 2010, 18:55

IMO they should have left us with at least 2 rare resources, say Crystal/Blood Crystal and Mercury, just so individual factions could have at least a bit of variation.

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Unread postby Roman » 01 Oct 2010, 20:26

Or they could have just kept the 7 resources of old...

Yeah, it sucks they cut down on the number of resources. Thankfully, however, it is not a game-ruining change.

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Unread postby Mirez » 01 Oct 2010, 20:34

I like the fewer recources, it's such a hassle claiming so many mines. Can anybody give me one good reason why it's bad they cut down on the recourses? Besides the less strategic BS
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Unread postby MattII » 01 Oct 2010, 20:50

Less uniqueness between towns since they're all not using exactly the same resources (Haven used to require a good deal less Sulphur than Inferno, but now we're down to Blood Crystals you can't have those little variations any more).

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Unread postby Mirez » 02 Oct 2010, 06:42

MattII wrote:Less uniqueness between towns since they're all not using exactly the same resources (Haven used to require a good deal less Sulphur than Inferno, but now we're down to Blood Crystals you can't have those little variations any more).
and rather then being short on sulphur and having plenty of the rest you wil now just be short on crystal.
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Unread postby MattII » 02 Oct 2010, 08:51

Except that you won't be any more since you'll own all of the mines in your area, and thus the enemy can't hurt you too much economically. Also, that situation was pretty much what the marketplace was built to overcome.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 02 Oct 2010, 20:08

Well the other guy could be spamming heroes to sit on the mines in your area of control...
I like the fewer recources, it's such a hassle claiming so many mines. Can anybody give me one good reason why it's bad they cut down on the recourses? Besides the less strategic BS
So any reason except the most important one?!
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Unread postby MattII » 02 Oct 2010, 20:18

ThunderTitan wrote:Well the other guy could be spamming heroes to sit on the mines in your area of control...
He wouldn't, since it would A) split his army up, and B) cost a friggin fortune, since each hero would cost about the same as a tier 6 unit before you even gave him/her any creatures.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 02 Oct 2010, 20:45

@MattII

Free Hint: Look at my sign, the first thing... B-)
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Unread postby MattII » 02 Oct 2010, 22:16

Ah. :embarrased: I sometimes have trouble sorting out the sarcastic from the serious, and in this case I evidently guessed wrong.

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Unread postby Kalah » 02 Oct 2010, 22:23

Every time TT confuses people on the forum with his sarcasm and other comments, they are entitled to give TT a wedgie. Of course, since they usually live in other countries, TT collects the wedgies as IOUs, so that he can let them give them all to him when they eventually meet him.

...

So far, TT has amassed a total of 6.587 wedgies. ;)
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 02 Oct 2010, 23:00

I assumed that the fact that it would cost a "friggin' fortune" would make it obvious...

Might not even count as sarcasm as it's not impossible, just not a good strategy... i will be trying it once i've already won though...
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Unread postby Pitsu » 21 Feb 2011, 11:33

Ubi is making (trying to make) fun.

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