MM History question

[XEL II]

Also, if Tim Lang works with MMT and they are aware of his statement, why would they place the Reckoning in 1175 regardless? I don't think they'd just ignore his reasoning, especially since he's a co-developer.

Because Tim Lang agreed with MMT that Nicolai was born in 1151 But he is competent about M&M9, not about Axeoth in general or Enroth. So, if he said that Nicolai was around 23 in M&M9, that means he was around 23 in M&M9. Nicolai was born in 1155. If he was around 23 in M&M9, that means M&M9 was in early 1178.
Marzhin told me (in PM) that in LotA M&M9 was shortly after the Reckoining, since Nicolai still believes he is on Enroth and nobody heard about the Refugees. I can quote, but I'm unsure if Marzhin approves this.

Besides, do you think Gelu was hanging around for four to six years before going after the Sword of Frost? Do you think Morgan Kendal was waiting that long to choose an heir to Erathia's throne? I sure don't.

We don't know if Kendal chose the new King by the time of Sword of Frost or not. And Gelu could beard about the Sword six years after AB.

where was Gelu to defend AvLee and Erathia? He was the Forest Guard captain and a well-known Demonslayer...

Fighting alongside Parson's and Erathian troops, while Tarnum was freeing dragons etc.

[Corlagon]

Marzhin told me (in PM) that in LotA M&M9 was shortly after the Reckoining, since Nicolai still believes he is on Enroth and nobody heard about the Refugees.

Shortly could mean anything, from a few weeks to a few years.

I think most of us have read over the Axeoth timeline, but nobody's disagreed with my date placement for the Second Crossing or the colonial Reckoning before.

Because Tim Lang agreed with MMT that Nicolai was born in 1151

Which doesn't explain things, as that would place the Reckoning in 1173/4.

But he is competent about M&M9, not about Axeoth in general or Enroth.

At Castle Gobs he admits that he is not competent about Heroes. Clearly he is competent about part of Enroth (i.e. the Might and Magic part) since he was aware of Nicolai's existence and the whole circus thing.

So, if he said that Nicolai was around 23 in M&M9, that means he was around 23 in M&M9.

Alright... so he's to be marked as competent about one game world he's worked on in detail, but not the other. I love selective reasoning

Nicolai was born in 1155. If he was around 23 in M&M9, that means M&M9 was in early 1178.

Yet you state already that Tim Lang is unreliable about Enroth. If he doesn't know when Nicolai was born for certain, how could he be certain as to how old Nicolai should be?

We don't know if Kendal chose the new King by the time of Sword of Frost or not.

But we're 99% certain that he didn't, since no new King or Queen is mentioned by Lysander, Tarnum or anyone else. Also, Sir Kentaine from Heroes IV mentions having outlived two Erathian rulers, not three.

And Gelu could beard about the Sword six years after AB.

Beard?

Fighting alngsides Parson's and Erathian troops, while Tarnum was freeing dragons etc.

And Tarnum didn't mention this or note that they were fighting for AvLee at the same time, nor did Gelu himself or Harke reference Gelu's presence during that war in SoF or LotA. Not to mention that Gelu, "AvLee's greatest hero", didn't participate in the final battle with Mutare which involved the Erathian King and the Kreegans (who were all dead and gone by the end of AB). Hmm.

[Avonu]

Marzhin told me (in PM) that in LotA M&M9 was shortly after the Reckoining, since Nicolai still believes he is on Enroth and nobody heard about the Refugees.

Shortly could mean anything, from a few weeks to a few years.

IIRC official info from MM9 (Tim Lang ) said that Nicolai was no more then one year on Chedian.

And I sure you remember that?

"I was in meditation, and I had a vision. Two swords, touched each other, and then there was destruction. I wonder what it means?"

Althrough he could has this vision years ago... but personally I think it was no longer that more days/weeks (no proof of that anyway).


About Reconing - consider both info from MM9, HoMM 4 and Heroes Chronicles, I think that ca. 1175 is the best date for this event.

where was Gelu to defend AvLee and Erathia? He was the Forest Guard captain and a well-known Demonslayer... so why wasn't he protecting his nation, unless he was already a little busy fighting Sandro's Deyjan legions for the Council of Elders?

He sailed to Vori. ;P Blame the writer for plot holes.
Anyway good question.

We don't know if Kendal chose the new King by the time of Sword of Frost or not.

Morgal Kendal was regent - his task was to choose new king, not to be next ruler of Erathia. Of course it could be mistake - writer didn't know/forget about regent function and thought about ruler of Erathia as king.

[XEL II]

Alright... so he's to be marked as competent about one game world he's worked on in detail, but not the other. I love selective reasoning

Nicolai was born in 1155. If he was around 23 in M&M9, that means M&M9 was in early 1178.

Yet you state already that Tim Lang is unreliable about Enroth. If he doesn't know when Nicolai was born for certain, how could he be certain as to how old Nicolai should be?

Tim Lang didn't work on Enroth. He worked on M&M9 as the lead developer. For example, he agreed that Nicolai was born in 1151
He wasn't talking about any year dates when saying Nicolai was 23 in M&M9. So, if Nicolai was born in 1155 (and we know he was) and Tim Lang said he was 23 in M&M9 (and he is reliable about M&M9), M&M9 was in 1178.

I think most of us have read over the Axeoth timeline, but nobody's disagreed with my date placement for the Second Crossing or the colonial Reckoning before.

Well, LotA Book 1 started in 536 AC (which Marzhin confirmed in PM) and he didn't disagree when you placed its start in 535.

Beard?

*hear

And Tarnum didn't mention this or note that they were fighting for AvLee at the same time, nor did Gelu himself or Harke reference Gelu's presence during that war in SoF or LotA. Not to mention that Gelu, "AvLee's greatest hero", didn't participate in the final battle with Mutare which involved the Erathian King and the Kreegans (who were all dead and gone by the end of AB). Hmm.

Tarnum doesn't mention Harke, as well. And Parson is also not present in CotD final mission. Gelu ould be fighting the remaining Mutare's troops in Erathia and AvLee.

[Avonu]

Tim Lang didn't work on Enroth. He worked on M&M9 as the lead developer.

Check MM6 and MM7 credits. ;P

[Corlagon]

Tim Lang didn't work on Enroth.

Yes, he did.

For example, he agreed that Nicolai was born in 1151

Which throws his other comment into some doubt as well.

Well, LotA Book 1 started in 536 AC (which Marzhin confirmed in PM) and he didn't disagree when you placed its start in 535.

Take a look at the LotA website here at CH. Click on "Fires from the North".

Tarnum doesn't mention Harke, as well.

Why should he? They don't know each other personally. Also, Harke obviously wasn't invented as a character back then (NWC didn't even place him where LotA does).

And Parson is also not present in CotD final mission.

But he's mentioned all over the place. Gelu's only mentioned in the first mission.

And I sure you remember that?

Definitely, but I don't think it should become automatic ironclad canonical information simply because MMIX's developer said it from memory

[Avonu]

Definitely, but I don't think it should become automatic ironclad canonical information simply because MMIX's developer said it from memory

...but it is the best clue which we have.

[XEL II]

Tim Lang didn't work on Enroth. He worked on M&M9 as the lead developer.

Check MM6 and MM7 credits. ;P

But he wasn't the lead developer. Besides, I don't think he is reliable about Enroth, since he agreed about Nicolai born in 1151.

[XEL II]

Which throws his other comment into some doubt as well.

But doesn't throw "the true name of Enroth" into doubt. I love selective reasoning To be serious, he didn't mention any dates when talking about Nicolai's age in M&M9. He later agreed about him being born in 1151. But this was for MMT and 23 age was established during M&M9's development.

[XEL II]

Morgal Kendal was regent - his task was to choose new king, not to be next ruler of Erathia. Of course it could be mistake - writer didn't know/forget about regent function and thought about ruler of Erathia as king.

I didn't say that Kendal became the new King. I say that we don't know if he chose the new King or not by the time of Sword of Frost.

[Corlagon]

...but it is the best clue which we have.

It is, but other clues overshadow it. Waerjak's age is a factor.

Anyway, with so many conflicting clues, we certainly don't have a definite date, and ca 1175 is indeed the most reasonable option.

But he wasn't the lead developer. Besides, I don't think he is reliable about Enroth, since he agreed about Nicolai born in 1151.

But he did "work on it", and as such you were mistaken above, so therefore I don't think you are reliable about Tim Lang

but doesn't throw "the true name of Enroth" into doubt. I love selective reasoning :p

Lol, he actually confirmed that one as new information, not old facts from other games. New info =/= Old info

[Avonu]

I didn't say that Kendal became the new King. I say that we don't know if he chose the new King or not by the time of Sword of Frost.

We don't know for sure, but in HoMM4 campaigns are clues that after Catherine depating from Erathia no new king was elected.

It is, but other clues overshadow it. Waerjak's age is a factor.

And how old Wearjack was in CotD and how old in HoMM4 campaign? And when H4 barbarian campaign take place?
You don't know it, you only can guess that.

@Corlagon, XEL II
Check who's post you quoting. ;P

[Corlagon]

Curses, sorry. I'm so used to debating with the same person that it's now become a bad habit

And how old Wearjack was in CotD and how old in HoMM4 campaign? And when H4 barbarian campaign take place?
You don't know it, you only can guess that.

I know a few things. He was 23 in Glory of Days Past. Obviously he was younger in CotD. Krohn knows when the Barbarian campaign took place, but it was probably a while before Emilia's because of the invasion of Vitross mentioned in Gauldoth's one. Tarnum also mentions Palaedrans at the end.

[XEL II]

We don't know for sure, but in HoMM4 campaigns are clues that after Catherine depating from Erathia no new king was elected.

Yes, I remember.
Corlagon, you assume LotA canon. Marzhin confirmed M&M9 took place next year after the Reckoining. So, the only subject for debate is Nicolai's age in M&M9. As Avonu said, Tim Lang's words about it are the best clue we have. Besides, Marzhin relatively agreed with me when I said Nicolai was 23 in M&M9. He replied that he is "in his mid thirties" in Book 3, but looks younger htan he is because his almost childish features.

[Corlagon]

It may be best to wait and see if Marzhin lends his opinions on these dates here so that we can work this out properly.

What we need to sort out:

1. The LotA date for the Reckoning (A.S.)
2. The LotA date for the Second Crossing (A.C.)
3. Nicolai's exact age in MMIX (so, in 521 A.C.)
4. Nicolai's exact age in Book III
5. The year Book III takes place in (A.C.)

Now, so far my estimates have been:

1. 1175 A.S.
2. 516 A.C.
3. 24 years of age
4. The maths say 41...?
5. Around 538 A.C.

So there are discrepancies here, since combining Tim Lang and Marzhin's estimates for Nicolai's age isn't possible (as he cannot be in his mid-thirties if Book III takes place after Book I).

Something else we know from LoMM is that Nicolai should have children at some point

[XEL II]

Something else we know from LoMM is that Nicolai should have children at some point

Well, Nicolai and Archibald aren't the only Ironfists in the universe

[Avonu]

Something else we know from LoMM is that Nicolai should have children at some point

You forgot uncle Archie, he to could have succesors.
And uncle Ragnar and his family from Varnal Hills.

[XEL II]

5. Around 538 A.C.

Marzhin told me it takes place a year after Book I (in 537 AC).

[Corlagon]

They are the only surviving two that we know of (presuming that Jerico is Morglin and the LoMM mission isn't on VARN). If it is on VARN, it seems odd that the description would note Roland and Archibald's war, since the VARNlings shouldn't know about it or Enroth at all.

Anyway, don't tell me you think Archie should be having kids at his age.

[XEL II]

Something else we know from LoMM is that Nicolai should have children at some point

You forgot uncle Archie, he to could have succesors.

And the Ironfists who remained on VARN 4