Ancestors = Ancients - ?

[XEL II]

Indulge me, then, by explaining away the reasons I listed

1. The fact that the Ancients are considered gods diesn't make them gods. Technically, the Ancestors aren't the gods, too.
2. About the Immortals, I said above.
3. Same reason as for 1.
4. This reason was mentioned by Avonu.
5. There are plenty possibilities where could they cast it. For example, canstantly keep it with themselves or render it out-of-phase.
6. They could form same sort of mental connection with the Barbarians.

[Corlagon]

But we don't know enough about the actual Ancient race to assume any of that. As such, the idea that the Ancestors are Ancients is totally based on assumption / speculation / conjecture, not NWC's cold hard facts

[XEL II]

and in Geary Gravel's novels it was refferedto be connecting the Wheel world to the Ancients

Nonetheless, it is not one and the same as the Web of Worlds as you said. Corak also calls it the Gate Web - in case you forget, Hitch uses the Gate Web in "The Shadowsmith", which has nothing to do with the Wire

I don't remember any statements that the Wire have nothing to do with the Web of Worlds.

It is the source of the Wielders' magic, according to the novels

That doesn't make it the source of the magic in general.

Yes, it is a network, but it doesn't act as a portal between one world and all others, now does it?

Web of Worlds is not only the Gate Web. It is the universal network of communication and shipping. The Gate Web is the part of the Web.

[XEL II]

But we don't know enough about the actual Ancient race to assume any of that. As such, the idea that the Ancestors are Ancients is totally based on assumption / speculation / conjecture, not NWC's cold hard facts

Of course. The only thing we know about the Ancients is that they are the super-developed race of the extremely powerful beings, which seeded and created the planets (in general), which could use the energy of the stars themselves. But that doesn't make them the Ancestors. I also don't assume them the Ancients.

[Corlagon]

I don't remember any statements that the Wire have nothing to do with the Web of Worlds.

Default counter-argument: I don't remember any statements that the Wire has anything to do with the Web of Worlds.

Also, while the Wire was noted as active in The Dreamwright and The Shadowsmith (though forbidden to Dubiel), the network connected to the Web of Worlds there was shown to be inactive (until Hitch revived some of the doors using the "enhanced" Staff of Blue Light, which landed him on the unnamed world with red skies).

So there isn't a very substantial connection, apart from the fact that they're both creations of the Ancients.

That doesn't make it source for the magic in general.

It is the source of the Wheel's magic, though. Maybe it isn't directly the source of magic on each other world, but it does contain enough energies to act as such.

Web of Worlds is not only the Gate Web.

I don't believe that's ever stated or strongly implied, and let's use some logic - a set of portals from X world to Y world (where X is any colonial world and Y is also any colonial world) will indeed allow for people to communicate and ship resources

created the planets (in general),

To kick up an old debate: Well, that isn't exactly proven

(note - please don't take this part seriously)

[XEL II]

I don't believe that's ever stated or strongly implied

This

Their attacks against the empire of the Ancients disrupted the network of shipping and communications that held us all together, causing the Silence that marks the first year of our modern calendar.

is pretty much not only about the Gate Web. The Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds, the set of its portals which lead to the Webstations, leading to the other Ancient's colonies. The Wire appears to be the planetary network in the Web of Worlds (as described in the logs).
BTW, we don't know for sure if the portal Hitch used was of the Gate Web or another of the Wire's portals. After all, the Gate Web wasn't invented yet when Geary Gravel wrote his novels.

Default counter-argument: I don't remember any statements that the Wire has anything to do with the Web of Worlds.

Let's take a look at the information we have:
- Wire was described as pretty much the same thing as the Web of Worlds (universal (inter)planetary network of the communication and control) in Corak's and Sheltem's logs;
- it was mentioned that the Wire connected the Wheel world to the Ancients;
- "Wire" is pretty much the synonym to "Web" (in terms of connecting something);

To kick up an old debate: Well, that isn't exactly proven

(note - please don't take this part seriously)

Well, this is directly said in the Legend of the Unification. But I don't take that part of your post seriously

[Corlagon]

BTW, we don't know for sure if the portal Hitch used was of the Gate Web or another of the Wire's portals.

Another? Since when did the Wire involve portals? It's an energy source and a planetary "computer" database. Corak, Amonwelle, the Stranger, Escaton, Dubiel, Sheltem, Melian... none of them have ever stated that the Wire and the Gate Web are connected, let alone the same thing.

is pretty much not only about the Gate Web.

From Escaton, the "Web of Worlds" conversation topic:

"There are more worlds than yours--a myriad of them. These worlds were once held in a great web whose threads could be traversed like bridges over rivers. What you call the Silence was marked by the breaking of the web which was built by my masters."

According to this, the Gate Web and Web of Worlds are one and the same, enabling travel between worlds. The Wire does not serve the same purpose.

The Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds, the set of its portals which lead to the Webstations, leading to the other Ancient's colonies.

Agreed, though Gate Web and Web of Worlds are synonymous according to Escaton.

The Wire appears to be the planetary network in the Web of Worlds (as described in the logs).

But the logs only describe that Guardians can connect to the Wire to discover information. It's merely an energy source and a database. There is no mention of portals or world travel (besides the void-ships and escape pods the Guardians used).

After all, the Gate Web wasn't invented yet when Geary Gravel wrote his novels.

Perhaps it was, we don't know. If it was, we don't know if Mr. Gravel knew about it. MM6 had entered an early stage of production when he began writing.

- Wire was described as pretty much the same thing as the Web of Worlds (universal (inter)planetary network of the communication and control) in Corak's and Sheltem's logs;

But note: Never an interplanetary network. Both Guardians specifically differentiate between Terra's Wire, VARN's Wire, XEEN's Wire etc. They don't imply that the Wire allows interplanetary travel as does the Web. In addition, neither log mentioned the Web of Worlds anywhere, nor did Melian mention the Wire.

- it was mentioned that the Wire connected the Wheel world to the Ancients;

Most likely because they created it...?

- "Wire" is pretty much the synonym to "Web" (in terms of connecting something);

The Web of Worlds and the Wire in each World cannot be considered one and the same.

Well, this is directly said in the Legend of the Unification.

But it is the elementals and Elemental Lords who do the actual creating, not the Ancients themselves

[Avonu]

Log Entry 6: I remain unable to locate Sheltem. The Wire shows signs of his tampering, but he has been careful to cover his tracks and hide his location.

Log Entry 8: News has reached me that Sheltem was posing as King Alamar, but has fled his usurped throne. I should have suspected. Alamar's subjects were saying that he has acted strangely for about four years, but it never occurred to me to question why. The Wire reports that he has lost his connection in the VARN bu has fled to CRON. I will seek him there.

Log Enry 9: The wire reports several attempts by Sheltem to subert the system and regain access, but he has been unsuccessful up to now.

Log Entry 12: AFter much time and effort, I have determined that Sheltem
resides in the original seedship that first settled on Terrra. The ship is entirely underwater, but several matter transfer sites exist on the sruface of the planet dissguised as pyramids. The pyramids have denied me access, of course, but that problem can be solved through the Wire. I feel conficent that I will have Sheltem in custody soon.

Log Entry 13: With the help of the Wire, I have infiltrated the starship.
Sheltem has activated all of the ship's defenses, sparing no effort to eliminated me. Despite my best effforts, I have been unable to cut Sheltem from the wire or order him off. I will have to physically defeat him.

Log Entry XL70C: My experiments in self sufficency have drawn the unwanted and unnecessary attention of the Ancients. At 0813.117, agents for the Ancients disconnected me from the Wire. Though the pain was intense, I remained operational. When the agents come for me. I will reduce my power emanations to prevent them from guessing the truth.

Log Entry XL83S: Today I had the pleasure of connecting to the VARN's Wire and ordering CRON to launch one of the VARNs not intended for Terra into the Sun.

Log Entry XL94P: My cover is ruined! Some of the natives of VARN arrived in my court today and revealed to all that I am an imposter. I banished them to my control maze to prevent a fight, but I am sure they will cut my Wire connection to this VARN soon. I shall have to flee to CRON.

Log Entry XL99D: Back on the Wire at last! The security system is mine to control, now, along with the rest of CRON. CRON is moving within Schwartz-Heinrich matter transfer range as I dictate this entry. I have placed a copy of my personality in the computer to direct the transfer of Terra's VARNs to the surface of Terra and then pilot CRON into the sun. I have also had the opportunity to ambush Corak and separate his memory module from his body. I left the module where I overcame him and locked his body in a cave miles away. I'm sure I'll never see him again. So adieu, wretched CRON. Terra awaits me.

Log Entry XL99E: At last! I HAVE RETURNED TO TERRA! It is good be back on the Terran Wire. There is much work to be done supervising the implantation of the VARNs onto Terra. Now that I'm back there are going to be some changes around here...

Log Entry XLDAD: My security systems tell me that Corak has gained entry to my ship and has made several attempts to disconnect me from the Wire. Those failed, of course, but he appropaches. Natives of Terra have also entered the ship and are workig their way towards me. It looks like I will have to physically defend myself.

My thoughts after reading these texts are that the Wire is some information system/datebase. It is not physical thing like Web Gate.
So IMO Gate Web=/=The Wire (however Wire could be some part of Gate Web)
It's something alike the Internet but also different.

I thnik is not only datebase/communication system but also instrument to control world on which Guardian is connected. He can gather information from that world and respond to and fix any anomaly on it. Or can do other things, not so good, which Sheltem did.
If I had to connect HC to MM lore, I think that World Tree can be such Wire (end of World Tree - end of life IIRC) - who told that Wire must be only electronical thing but no biotechnology or (bio)technomagic?



BTW - Anyone knows how to calculete Star Trek stardate to normal months and years?
There are some stardates in Corak and Sheltem logs and I personally think they are based on Star Trek time units - I am courios how long it take between disconnecting Sheltem from Terra's Wire and his landing on VARN 4 (Corak was inprisioned by 3.6 years of his calendar but Sheltem was taken earlier from Terra). And how much time pass between MM1 and MM3-4.

[Marzhin]

BTW - Anyone knows how to calculete Star Trek stardate to normal months and years?
There are some stardates in Corak and Sheltem logs and I personally think they are based on Star Trek time units - I am courios how long it take between disconnecting Sheltem from Terra's Wire and his landing on VARN 4 (Corak was inprisioned by 3.6 years of his calendar but Sheltem was taken earlier from Terra). And how much time pass between MM1 and MM3-4.

According to wikipedia, it worked like this in Star trek the New Generation (it was apparently more abstract in the original series. I don't know much about Star Trek myself, I only saw the first movie.)

A Stardate is a five-digit number followed by a decimal point and one more digit. Example: "46254.7". The first two digits of the Stardate are "46." The 4 stands for the 24th century, the 6 indicates the 6th season. The following three digits will progress consecutively during the course of the season from 000 to 999. The digit following the decimal point counts _tenths of a day_. Stardate 45254.4, therefore, represents the noon hour on the 254th "day" of the fifth season. Because Stardates in the 24th Century are based on a complex mathematical formula, a precise correlation to Earth-based dating systems is not possible.

[Avonu]

IIRC from some searching in Net, it isn't so simple. There was some trouble with Star Trek dates - IIRC there was some changes in dating episodes/years during seasons of different ST series. But I am not 100% sure of that.
Anyway - thanks.


Now, I try summary some dates from MM1-5:

0813.117 - Sheltem is disconected by two Ancients agents (Corak and Orango Seventeen) from Terra Wire and taken away from planet to repairs.

0943.15 and 0943.25 - Sheltem imprisoned both agents in brig statis cells.

STARPHASE 5281.6 (VARN 4 time?*) - Sheltem flee VARN 4 (plus/minus few hours)

Corak was in statis brig cell for 3.8 years.
Sheltem and Corak spent several years on VARN 4 and CRON before reaching Terra.

*If there were differnce in Star Trek series in time dating during different series, then MM1 can use old ST calendar and logs in MM5 can be based on new ST calendar - but that is only my speculation.

[XEL II]

"Whose threads could be traversed like bridges over rivers" impies that the Web of Worlds has the portals. It isn't stated that the Web of Worlds has only the Gate Web portals. Gate Web is the ordered set of these portals, each of them leads to the one of the Webstations, from where all other portals of the Gate Web and the Ancient homeworld can be reached. Web of Worlds isn't only the portals, since Melian reffers to it as "the network of the communications and shipping". As Avonu said, I think the Wire is some (seemingly planetary) part of the Web of Worlds/Gate Web.

But it is the elementals and Elemental Lords who do the actual creating, not the Ancients themselves

There is no proof for that. And no single statement (about creating the worlds like XEEN). Sleepers aren't the Elemental Lords and not the Elementals, they are mechanism used in the Unification (not creation) of XEEN (they talk like robots and were reffered to as the Slumbering Servants).

My thoughts after reading these texts are that the Wire is some information system/datebase. It is not physical thing like Web Gate.
So IMO Gate Web=/=The Wire (however Wire could be some part of Gate Web)
It's something alike the Internet but also different.

Web of Worlds is also something alike the Internet ("network of communications and shipping), according to Melian, which includes the portals (according to M&M7 and Escaton). So, the Wire seems to be some planetary part of the Web of Worlds.

[Corlagon]

Whose threads could be traversed like bridges over rivers" impies that the Web of Worlds has the portals.

Oh, it certainly does.

It isn't stated that the Web of Worlds has only the Gate Web portals.

Nor is the reverse!

Gate Web is the ordered set of these portals

Or, to rephrase, Gate Web is a web of portals leading to worlds, aka a Web of interconnected Worlds.

and the Ancient homeworld can be reached.

Could be reached, according to MM7.

Web of Worlds isn't only the portals, since Melian reffers to it as "the network of the communications and shipping".

Not conclusive evidence!

As Avonu said, I think the Wire is some (seemingly planetary) part of the Web of Worlds/Gate Web.

In which case, I've successfully proven my original point: the Web of Worlds and the Wire are certainly not the same thing.

Web of Worlds is also something alike the Internet ("network of communications and shipping), according to Melian, which includes the portals (according to M&M7 and Escaton). So, the Wire seems to be some planetary part of the Web of Worlds.

Again, Melian did not mention the Wire, and debatably didn't even reference it. It was never mentioned after MM5 (and the novels). As such, we err on the side of caution and presume it is not involved with the Web. Or would it be better to jump to a conclusion we can't firmly back up with in-game evidence?

There is no proof for that. And no single statement (about creating the worlds like XEEN).

Hmm, it is evident that we have some very different definitions of the word "proof":

"Unfortunately, they plan to segregate the elements that were forced together during the creation of the world."

"There are many Prophecies that tell of the destruction of Jadame and the entire world! Most tell of a time when the world will be consumed by that which created it."

"Your world will be destroyed by the elemental forces that created it."

"Once the cataclysm has run its course, I will return them so that they might rebuild your realm and theirs."

"It is told that the world has been formed and destroyed many times. The Lords of Air, the Water, the Fire, and the Earth, will give life... and take it away."

"Perhaps the reason I am not affected by the madness is that I carry with me an amulet given to me by the lord of this plane, Shalwend. It is said in our legends that he and the other elemental lords made your world."

"{Entire MM2 manual, explaining in detail the creation of CRON at the hands of the Elemental Lords}"

So this isn't proof? Lol

[XEL II]

Or, to rephrase, Gate Web is a web of portals leading to worlds, aka a Web of interconnected Worlds.

No, not aka. The Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds.

Not conclusive evidence!

Conclusive enough. "Communications and shipping". If Melian meant only the portal system he would say "the network of portals".

Nor is the reverse!

Yes. But Escaton says "whose threads can be traversed like bridges over rivers", not directly mentioning the Gate Web.

Could be reached, according to MM7.

I was general here. One of the Webstations was cut off and I didn't say it wasn't, I was talking about the Gate Web in general.

Hmm, it is evident that we have some very different definitions of the word "proof":

"Unfortunately, they plan to segregate the elements that were forced together during the creation of the world."

"There are many Prophecies that tell of the destruction of Jadame and the entire world! Most tell of a time when the world will be consumed by that which created it."

"Your world will be destroyed by the elemental forces that created it."

"Once the cataclysm has run its course, I will return them so that they might rebuild your realm and theirs."

"It is told that the world has been formed and destroyed many times. The Lords of Air, the Water, the Fire, and the Earth, will give life... and take it away."

"Perhaps the reason I am not affected by the madness is that I carry with me an amulet given to me by the lord of this plane, Shalwend. It is said in our legends that he and the other elemental lords made your world."

"{Entire MM2 manual, explaining in detail the creation of CRON at the hands of the Elemental Lords}"

So this isn't proof? Lol

No. Enroth is the world seeded by the Ancients and CRON is a ship carrying VARNs. They have nothing to do with XEEN (besides the connection to the Ancients).

Again, Melian did not mention the Wire, and debatably didn't even reference it. It was never mentioned after MM5 (and the novels). As such, we err on the side of caution and presume it is not involved with the Web. Or would it be better to jump to a conclusion we can't firmly back up with in-game evidence?

It would for the one single reason that in M&M5 the Wire was described in overall similiar way to Melian's statement about the Web of Worlds, only on more planetary level, so

In which case, I've successfully proven my original point: the Web of Worlds and the Wire are certainly not the same thing.

the Wire is some planetary part of the Web of Worlds (one of "communications"), not technically the same thing.

My thought: I think the Wire support the worlds and ships (nacelles) with some energies, magic among them. If the Dome have aspects, the Plane of Magic can be Cosmonium's aspect, being the nexus of the energy, which can unite the four Elements, magic, thus representing the Order Cosmonium brings.
Corlagon, you think the Paradise is the Plane of Life, Esoterica's aspect of Dome. If the Paradise was a plane, it would be more logical for it to be Lurkane's aspect, since Lurkane represents Death and the Paradise is the afterlife. Besides, why there are only Enrothians in the Paradise, if it is the aspect of Dome. Or it is the aspect of Dome available only for Enroth?

[Corlagon]

No, not aka. The Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds.

Once again, there is no conclusive proof that they are separate things.

Conclusive enough. "Communications and shipping". If Melian meant only the portal system he would say "the network of portals".

Communication and shipping can be performed using portals.

No. Enroth is the world seeded by the Ancients and CRON is a ship carrying VARNs. They have nothing to do with XEEN (besides the connection to the Ancients).

Erm, I wasn't talking about XEEN. I didn't mention XEEN at all. You claimed that the Ancients created the planets. I said and offered proof that the Elemental Lords created them. XEEN isn't a planet, it's a... well, a X.E.E.N.

It would for the one single reason that in M&M5 the Wire was described in overall similiar way to Melian's statement about the Web of Worlds, only more on planetary level

Oh? Was it? Well, I disagree. Communication? There was hardly any communication shown to be involved with the Wire, unless you count the communication of data to the Guardians' systems... Shipping? Shipping implies either trade or travel IMO in the Ancients' Empire (i.e. the resources the Ancients lost to the Kreegans), and there was no reference to this in Corak or Sheltem's logs. It could refer to the shipping of the Nacelle itself to a world like Terra, but XEEN wasn't designed as a terraforming platform. And it was indeed a network, though Melian again was apparently talking about the Web - an interplanetary network. The Wires aren't interplanetary.

So I can't see any overt or covert similarities. This is a matter of conjecture, not fact; you present it as fact.

the Wire is some planetary part of the Web of Worlds (one of "communications"), not technically the same thing.

So either way, I've indeed successfully proven my original point: the Web of Worlds and the Wire are certainly not the same thing.

which can unite the four Elements, magic, thus representing the Order Cosmonium brings.

Hardly explains the Chaos affiliated with acorns turning into butterflies, though.

If the Paradise was a plane, it would more logical for it to be Lurkane's aspect, since Lurkane represents Death and the Paradise is the afterlife.

We already have a Plane of Death in Heroes IV. It looks and functions nothing like Paradise as depicted in CotU. As such, Paradise must be something else. It could be a "state of soul", or it could be a literal plane.

Also, dead creatures being sent there doesn't mean it's associated with death... I mean, look at Heaven or any other "positive" afterlife in religion, they're never regarded as places involved with doom and gloom and sorrow. They're full of "eternal life".

I actually wrote a "theory" on this a month or two ago, though I must stress that it's only a theory and nothing more:

HALL OF JUDGEMENT
The Astral Plane of Enroth. It was born of - and acts as a manifestation of - the Dome, and was shaped by the transcendant consciousness of mortal souls under the five Forces' jurisdiction. As artificial caretakers of the Ancients' colonies, spawned through intangible technology and high primal sorcery, the Forces of the Dome maintain control over the destinies of these souls. The fallen may suffer two fates under these Forces' rule: their astral essence may be conveyed to the Plane of Life, known locally as Paradise, or it may be snuffed out entirely, resulting in an abstract state known only as Oblivion. The Hall itself is labyrinthine, hallowed and strikingly corporeal. It is thought that this results from the sheer diversity of Enroth's mortal races, which prevents the planet's Oversoul from shaping a distinctly unique self-manifestation.

SOUL
All sentient creatures in the universe are born with a soul, or astral essence. This is drawn into the Void upon death, from whence it dissipates into one of the six primal planes attuned to its corporeal form. The Ancients comprehend the workings of this essence, and the ethereal Domes they envelop their colonies within usually birth astral planes, intended to better organise the 'destinies' of colonial souls.

OVERSOUL
A collective consciousness, formed over millennia by fragments of the astral essence within every living creature in the world. The Oversoul manifests only upon colonial worlds, within the heart of the astral plane, and the 'data' it contains is transmitted to the Ancients via the Wire and signal-emitting Webstations within the recesses of the Void. Though devastating for the Ancients, the Silence caused by the Kreegans has done nothing to affect this process, and even now they 'read' the Oversouls of each colony to determine the Kreegan presence upon each. Kreegans are strongly unique in that they are the only beings known to possess chaos-based astral essences (likely a result of their origin among the Creators), apart from the nightmarish denizens of the Chaos Plane itself. In reading Oversouls, the Ancients can discover the extent of a planet's Kreegan threat, the length of time they have been active there and the numbers of their race present. Suitably infested worlds warrant total destruction by Escaton, the Ancients' first Guardian. However, Escaton's recent and, frankly, peculiar demise at Enrothian hands has brought this particular policy to an abrupt end, at least for the time being.

Besides, why there are only Enrothians in the Paradise, if it is the aspect of Dome. Or it is the aspect of Dome available only for Enroth?

I don't believe so. Heroes IV's little legend about the Warrior of Light and the God of Sacrifice essentially claims that the people of Axeoth can reach Paradise, so it's universal, not confined to one world's inhabitants. Did I imply that it was?

[XEL II]

No, not aka. The Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds.

Once again, there is no conclusive proof that they are separate things.

I didn't say they are separate, I said the Gate Web is the part of the Web of Worlds, not the wgole Web of Worlds.

Erm, I wasn't talking about XEEN. I didn't mention XEEN at all. You claimed that the Ancients created the planets. I said and offered proof that the Elemental Lords created them. XEEN isn't a planet, it's a... well, a X.E.E.N.

I mentioned the Ancients creating planets like XEEN, which is stated in the Legend of the Unification, not the seeded world or seedships.

Oh? Was it? Well, I disagree. Communication? There was hardly any communication shown to be involved with the Wire, unless you count the communication of data to the Guardians' systems... Shipping? Shipping implies either trade or travel IMO in the Ancients' Empire (i.e. the resources the Ancients lost to the Kreegans), and there was no reference to this in Corak or Sheltem's logs. It could refer to the shipping of the Nacelle itself to a world like Terra, but XEEN wasn't designed as a terraforming platform. And it was indeed a network, though Melian again was apparently talking about the Web - an interplanetary network. The Wires aren't interplanetary.

Again, I said the Wire is the planetary part of the Web of Worlds.

Communication and shipping can be performed using portals.

We know how the Gate Web's portals look like and that they are situated on the planets, shipping hardly can be used with them. And communication means also the communication like Internet or telephone, not only the physical communication. Besides, Melian said "communications".

We already have a Plane of Death in Heroes IV. It looks and functions nothing like Paradise as depicted in CotU. As such, Paradise must be something else. It could be a "state of soul", or it could be a literal plane.

The Plane of Death from HoMMIV was the essence of destruction, something evil and despising life. Lurkane is the Death as the natural process, and who said the Plane of Death is its aspect.

I don't believe so. Heroes IV's little legend about the Warrior of Light and the God of Sacrifice essentially claims that the people of Axeoth can reach Paradise, so it's universal, not confined to one world's inhabitants. Did I imply that it was?

Well, if the Paradise is the aspect of Dome, it is right for it to be universal, since the dome is the Plane, preserving the Elemental Planes' balance on worlds and seedships.

[Corlagon]

I mentioned the Ancients creating planets like XEEN, which is stated in the Legend of the Unification, not the seeded orld or seedships.

To clarify further, my argument was aimed at this:

the Ancients is that they are the super-developed race of the extremely powerful beings, which seeded and created the planets (in general)

Again, I said the Wire was the planetary part of the Web of Worlds.

"I said" doesn't make anything factual, because it's conjecture. Some evidence is also necessary. I've read all texts related to both the Wire and the Web of Worlds in detail, and I don't draw the same conclusion as you do. Of course, it certainly could be related to the Web, but we do not know this for certain because that isn't what we are told.

The Plane of Death from HoMMIV was the essence of destruction, something evil and despising life. Lurkane is the Death as the natural process, and who said the Plane of Death is its aspect.

Maybe I misinterpret here again (it's very late and I'm not in my right mind), but the fact that there are primal Planes connected to each Force is part of LotA (and, to an extent, Heroes IV) lore. Where did you think the Forces get their power from?

The Plane of Death seemed natural enough to me. It didn't give me the impression of evil, nor did it didn't seem like the essence of destruction to me... there would need to be a lot more water

The only things there that despised life were "Necros" and his minions, as far as we are aware. Of course the Plane was sapping away Gauldoth's living half, but maybe that's because there is naturally no Life there.

Well, if the Paradise is the aspect of Dome, it is right for it to be universal, since the dome is the Plane, preserving the Elemental Planes' balance on worlds and seedships.

Yes, I totally agree. I do believe that Paradise is where Esoterica's power stems from.

Of course, anyone's entitled to believe anything they want to believe... until canon comes along

[XEL II]

Maybe I misinterpret here again (it's very late and I'm not in my right mind), but the fact that there are primal Planes connected to each Force is part of LotA (and, to an extent, Heroes IV) lore. Where did you think the Forces get their power from?

It was never said in LotA lore. It was only said that the Forces of Dome from M&M3 manual are A.I.'s from the Wire, who banished the Elementals to the Elemental Planes after the primal natural forces manifested in them and attacked seedships and the Dome is some kind of the Astral Plane linked to the Wire and controlled by the Forces. On some worlds the Forces have personifications, like Arslegardian Gods and the Ancestors. It is your theory about the aspects of Dome, though it isn't impossible.
BTW, it is directly said by Gauldoth that the Plane of Death was the essence of destructive force.

"I said" doesn't make anything factual, because it's conjecture. Some evidence is also necessary. I've read all texts related to both the Wire and the Web of Worlds in detail, and I don't draw the same conclusion as you do. Of course, it certainly could be related to the Web, but we do not know this for certain because that isn't what we are told.

We aren't talking about any facts. In your post you were disproving the idea that the Wire and Web of Worlds are the same thing. I answered to this: "I said that the Wire is some part of the Web of Worlds", not they are the same thing. I don't claim they are one and the same, but that the Wire is some kind of Web of Worlds on the planets, its planetary representation (probably one of "communications").

To clarify further, my argument was aimed at this:

the Ancients is that they are the super-developed race of the extremely powerful beings, which seeded and created the planets (in general)

"In general" was about the Ancients, who are they in general, not about creating the planets in general. They can create the planets (like XEEN etc.), but not all the planets. Enroth was created by the Elemental Lords uniting their energies.

[Corlagon]

It was never said in LotA lore.

Not directly as of yet, but you can rest assured that it will be, though.

BTW, it is directly said by Gauldoth that the Plane of Death was the essence of destructive force.

I'd interpret that as the destruction of life, not destruction in general. Either way, it's still not necessarily "evil".

We aren't talking about any facts. In your post you were disproving the idea that the Wire and Web of Worlds are the same thing.

Well, I'm also disproving the idea that the Wire is part of the Web, because that's not factually stated either.

"In general" was about the Ancients, who are they in general, not about creating the planets in general.

Sure. Of course. But I trust you can see how it's easily possible for me or anyone to misunderstand what you're saying there with "created the planets".

Or perhaps it was "created planets" you meant, because "created the planets" grammatically suggests that they made all the planets.

[XEL II]

Well, I'm also disproving the idea that the Wire is part of the Web, because that's not factually stated either.

I'm in turn disproving this since I think it is part of the Web of Worlds with my opinion based on Melian's statement. Anyway, I don't want to argue.

Not directly as of yet, but you can rest assured that it will be, though.

Why are you so sure?

[Corlagon]

Why are you so sure.

I won't say any more on it. You'll find out for yourself in a few months