Timeline of Axeoth

[Kareeah Indaga]

Great to see Escaton active somewhere outside MM8, he had a short run...

Yes, yes he did. : (

[Demilich]

The Vanguard is a what you could describe as an elite commando, even its member are not "regular" Kreegans but cybernetically and genetically enhanced ones (this is to explain why the Devils and Archdevils you encounter in the Tomb at the end of MMIX are quite different from the usual ones :p)

The Hive leaders (kings, some captains) also have cybernetical/biotechnological nchances according to Melian (thats why Ancinet Weapons were necessary to take the Kreegans down in M&M6-7). Is the Vanguard formed by such leaders or by different kinds of the Kreegan with enchancments?
Who is the Malustar in Kreegan hierarchy? Regular Kreegan who was the famous fleet officer?
You did awesome work in LotA. It's good that UbiSoft approved it as canon. Can't wait for Books 3-4 .

...The Fiery Moon?

Axeoth.
The planet was just seeded when the Vanguard group arrived on it. Kreegan conquered the world, but were defeated by Escaton. After that, the Ancients charged the Forces of Dome to protect Tomb of Thousand Terrors. In the meantime the sixth Force, Kaos aka Njam, who was kind of "opposing force" to other five - Chaos, emerged. Guardian wasn't assigned to the Axeoth because of Silence. War against the remaining Kreegans consumed all the resources of the Ancients and the colonies in Spinward Rim were lost (as told on M&M7). Forces of Dome, named Gods of Arslegard continued to guard the Tomb ever since. All the information about the Axeoth is from LotA Book 1 and its in-game bios of Krohn and Njam

[Marzhin]

The Hive leaders (kings, some captains) also have cybernetical/biotechnological nchances according to Melian (thats why Ancinet Weapons were necessary to take the Kreegans down in M&M6-7). Is the Vanguard formed by such leaders or by different kinds of the Kreegan with enchancments?

Who is the Malustar in Kreegan hierarchy? Regular Kreegan who was the famous fleet officer?

The Vanguard Kreegans have been subjects to more drastic and hazardous experiments. The Vanguard veterans are freaks, even for Kreegans ^^

Malustar was one of the highest ranked officers during the battle of the Arc. He has numerous cyber-enhancements, as you can see if you look closely at its skin texture :p

Axeoth.
The planet was just seeded when the Vanguard group arrived on it. Kreegan conquered the world, but were defeated by Escaton. After that, the Ancients charged the Forces of Dome to protect Tomb of Thousand Terrors. In the meantime the sixth Force, Kaos aka Njam, who was kind of "opposing force" to other five - Chaos, emerged. Guardian wasn't assigned to the Axeoth because of Silence. War against the remaining Kreegans consumed all the resources of the Ancients and the colonies in Spinward Rim were lost (as told on M&M7). Forces of Dome, named Gods of Arslegard continued to guard the Tomb ever since. All the information about the Axeoth is from LotA Book 1 and its in-game bios of Krohn and Njam

By "had already destroyed an entire world" I meant "other than Axeoth"

Concerning the Gods' bios you can find in LotA files, they are prototypes. Their final bios are a bit different, mainly concerning the Forces' initial purpose. Sorry if those files caused confusion, I kinda forgot to remove them ^^'

[Corlagon]

Here are the Gods' bios for reference:

Krohn is the King of the Gods, and himself the God of Might. He is the master of Hallenhalt and the husband of the Goddess of Life, Fre. A prophecy says he will die in battle against the God of Chaos, Njam, during the Twilight of the Gods. He was created by the Ancients from the Forces of the Dome to seal the Kreegans in the Tomb of a Thousand Terrors. In those times, he was known as Bellum.

Fre is the Goddess of Life, fertility and peace. She had a lot of worshippers in Axeoth, under one or the other of her many aspects. She is the wife of the King of the Gods, Krohn. She was created from the Forces of the Dome by the Ancients, to seal the Kreegans in the Tomb of a Thousand Terrors. Back then, she was known as Esoterica.

Better known as the "Green Man" in Chedian, this God of Nature and seasons tends to be forgotten nowadays, while he was a very important deity a few centuries ago. He was created by the Ancients in the last days of the Great War, during the conjuration of the Forces of the Dome to seal the Tomb of Thousand Terrors.

Skraelos is the God of Death, and the Gatekeeper of the Underworld. He is the one who judges the souls of the dead who are deemed unworthy to go to Hallenhalt. According to folklore, he imposes trials to them, with the opportunity of being reincarnated if they succeed. He is by far the most mysterious of the Gods, but is often presented as a benevolent, compassionate being. He was created from the Forces of the Dome, and was known as Lurkane by the Ancients.

Njam is the only God of Chedian who was not born from the Forces of the Dome unleashed by the Ancients against the Kreegans, but rather as an avatar of Chaos itself. Imprisonned in the Tomb of Thousand Terrors after a failed coup against the King of the Gods, Krohn, Njam is waiting to be released and bring Chaos to both mortals and deities.

I could not find Hanndl's bio.

The Hive leaders (kings, some captains) also have cybernetical/biotechnological nchances according to Melian (thats why Ancinet Weapons were necessary to take the Kreegans down in M&M6-7).

For more reference :

While most of the Kreegan can be slain with ordinary weapons and spells, the elite guards and upper echelon breeders have tougher skin and natural defenses that protect them from anything but very powerful weapons. In the planetary control center beneath me are the weapons and armor you will need to survive battle with the enemy.

You did awesome work in LotA. It's good that UbiSoft approved it as canon. Can't wait for Books 3-4 .

*echoes Demilich*

After that, the Ancients charged the Forces of Dome to protect Tomb of Thousand Terrors. In the meantime the sixth Force, Kaos aka Njam, who was kind of "opposing force" to other five - Chaos, emerged.

Hang on - though they are prototypes, from those bios I get more of an impression that the Forces of the Dome created the Gods, not that they are the Gods themselves...

Marzhin, could I ask if there will be any more major references to Geary Gravel's books? If you reveal the name of Hitch's planet and the Green Moth world somehow I'll write in the related story-bible article that you are a lifesaver

[Marzhin]

Hang on - though they are prototypes, from those bios I get more of an impression that the Forces of the Dome created the Gods, not that they are the Gods themselves...

Okay, explanation time Please take into account this my version of facts and as such is not "official" in any way.

When the Ancients "seed" a newborn world, they begin by creating balance between the Four Elements. To perform this, they create a "cage" that keeps the stability of the elemental powers. This is "the Dome" : an astral plane separated from (but linked to) the Wire (which is more akin to a planetary computer network).

The Dome is ruled by five Forces, which are Bellum, Esoterica, Lurkane, Gaïam and Cosmonium (or, to use Heroes IV's terminology : Might, Life, Death, Nature and Order). BTW, I didn't invent the Forces, they are from MM3. On Axeoth, a sixth Force, Kaos, appeared. Why and how exactly this is possible, you'll discover in the following LotA books :p

Because the Forces of the Dome are not only there to maintain the elemental balance, but also to protect the souls of the living (thus their control over the afterlife, and fate), they also appear as avatars than can interact with mortals. The Ancestors on Enroth were such personnifications of the Forces. So are the Gods on Axeoth.

On Enroth, my theory was that Escaton shut down the Dome before raising the Crystal in Jadame. Even if he was destroyed, the elemental balance was unstable, and even a small push was enough to break the balance and revert the whole planet to elemental chaos. And in this case, the push was BIG Fortunately, the Ancients had a safeguard in case this would happen : the activation of emrgency interstellar portals...

Everything above will be explained in more detail in Book 3, which revolves heavily around the Gods.

Marzhin, could I ask if there will be any more major references to Geary Gravel's books? If you reveal the name of Hitch's planet and the Green Moth world somehow I'll write in the related story-bible article that you are a lifesaver

There is a couple of nods to the books, but nothing really important. And I won't name Geary Gravel's worlds, it would be "lèse-majesté" as we say in french

[Corlagon]

Please take into account this my version of facts and as such is not "official" in any way.

...I can't see anyone else making a better version so yours will have to do. I'd still like to include LotA in the lore bible, but only if that is okay with you.

This is "the Dome" : an astral plane separated from (but linked to) the Wire (which is more akin to a planetary computer network).

...VARN's Inner Sanctum? And the Wire provides the limitless source of energy which can be shaped into "magic" by the natives, right? As did the Wielders from The Dreamwright and all "sorcerers" in the whole series.

If Escaton somehow links himself to the Wire when he reaches Colony, that could explain why his energy shield didn't protect him from his own palace on the Plane Between Planes - there's no Wire there.

There is a couple of nods to the books, but nothing really important. And I won't name Geary Gravel's worlds, it would be "lèse-majesté" as we say in french

Thanks. I understand, though now I have no idea what to call the article. "Hitch's World", "The Wheel World"... gah.

Other abstract thoughts related to the subject of new lore (don't worry Marzhin, I don't expect answers, this is just me thinking aloud):

I wonder if the Fiery Moon = the Elven homeworld from Book 2.

How about the Kreegan Gods mentioned in Armageddon's Blade, Erebus and Darqtane?

There were "Demons" on the CRON and other Nacelles, maybe they are Kreegans. Perhaps their numbers were not significant enough to warrant Escaton.

If Armageddon's Blade is the Kreegan master weapon, and the Kreegans oppose the Ancients, what is the Sword of Frost...?

What will crazy old Gavin Magnus get up to next? Probably going to attack Mysterio or Gauldoth.

Escaton shuts down the Dome when trying to seperate the elements, how did Gralkor and co. manage to do the same in Masters of the Elements?

Now really, what in the name of Krohn are Archangels?

The Hall of Judgement. Now what could that be? Looking at screenies from the Chronicle videos I can see that there is a window with stars in the hall. Maybe it's in the Void...

Lucifer Kreegan = a Vanguard member? (He could only be slain by Armageddon's Blade)

Whatever happened to the Vori Elves and the Tatalians?

How about the Boatman (that's Death from MM6, but I like to connect him with the Conquest of the Underworld guy)? Could he also be a Forces of the Dome personification?

Carverax from The Shadowsmith says he is the "slayer of demons"... hmm. Though Demons and Kreegans are seperate races according to Heroes Chronicles.

MM Tribute features the Creators, I wonder if they will be further mentioned in LotA. There may be a conflict in new lore we'd have some fun speculating about.

And now the big one again: What are the Ancients?

There, I'm done

[Demilich]

By "had already destroyed an entire world" I meant "other than Axeoth"

But Axeoth also was conquered at ne point.
So, I think that you reffered to the Fiery Moon, yes?

Concerning the Gods' bios you can find in LotA files, they are prototypes. Their final bios are a bit different, mainly concerning the Forces' initial purpose. Sorry if those files caused confusion, I kinda forgot to remove them ^^'

But Gods actually were created from the Forces of Dome and Kaos/Njam is the "mistake", aren't they?
And ehose is the God of Death from Heroes IV. You told that the Ancestors and Gods of Chedian are manifestations of the Forces of Dome. Is that God of Death Skraelos or not?

Malustar was one of the highest ranked officers during the battle of the Arc. He has numerous cyber-enhancements, as you can see if you look closely at its skin texture :p

So, he was kind of Devil Captain (one kind of high-level Kreegan from M&M). He and Ebora were incredibly powerful, but not enough to conquer the planet*. Since Malustar was away from his kind and in slumber for more than millenium, is he weakened?
There are few demons in Korresan and Chedian (mainly lesser demons and imps). And in LotA there is Ebora's weak army of workers, which probably consists of Chedian and Korresan Kreegans.
Was these lesser Kreegans descendants and/or remnants of some demons that came on Axeoth along with the Vanguard?

* And I'm sure that the Book 3 will be about the release of Vanguard forces and their great battle against the Gods and the army of fallen Chedian heroes led by the forgotten prince from forgotten world

[Corlagon]

Is that God of Death Skraelos or not?

Just IMHO I think not, look at these quotes:

What I found on the other side wasn't some distant castle or even another world as I had suspected. It was an entirely different plane of existence not unlike the Elemental Planes. If I had to give it a name, I would've called it the Plane of Death.

an inhumanly tall figure masked in a black cloak that draped behind him like a shadowy wedding train with a life of its own.

Instantly, I knew this being was a native of this Plane of Death.

"I have visited the remains of your former world, Kalibarr. I have seen the rubble of ancient cities, the bones of those who couldn't make it through those annoying portals! So much gone. It was beautiful! But it's a pity so many escaped my reach."

He has knowledge of both Colony and Axeoth, and is called a native of the Plane of Death. I'd imagine that would make him older even than the Ancients and the universe itself - like another Elemental Lord, per se - so I doubt that he and Skraelos are one.

[Demilich]

BTW, the spinward Rim is the real astrophysical term, which means the sector of the Miky Way Galaxy.

I wonder if the Fiery Moon = the Elven homeworld from Book 2.

It's unlikely. Elven homeworld was destroyed by the Creators and Creators are those who created the Kreegans, not them.

How about the Kreegan Gods mentioned in Armageddon's Blade, Erebus and Darqtane?

Just mythical gods worshipped by the Kreegans.

There were "Demons" on the CRON and other Nacelles, maybe they are Kreegans. Perhaps their numbers were not significant enough to warrant Escaton.

Actually Demons are one of the races created by the Ancients. Some of the Kreegan have sly resemblance to them, but Demons are part of Ancients experiments. And they aren't from Hell, just like angels aren't from Heaven. Same for the Demons of the Underworld*. But "Demons" from M&M3 seem to be some small forces of the Kreegan who got to Terra through portal and were banished by Kastor's Ressurectra's party.

If Armageddon's Blade is the Kreegan master weapon, and the Kreegans oppose the Ancients, what is the Sword of Frost...?

Armageddon's Blade isn't ultimate Weapon of the Kreegan - it's the ultimate weapon of Eeofol after destruction of the main kreegan forces on Enroth (Hive and Colony Zod). Altough AB is powerful/ it doesn't have enough power to freely conquer or destroy planets. Its wielders can be defeated like Xeron was or Gelu would be defeated (if Nighonian forces reach Eeofol in AB). So, Sword of Frost is somehow related to the Ancients, but not the Ultimate Weapon, it's equal to Armageddon's Blade. The Ultimate Weapon of the Ancients must have immeasurable power and be capable of creating and destroying the worlds in a blink of eye.

Escaton shuts down the Dome when trying to seperate the elements, how did Gralkor and co. manage to do the same in Masters of the Elements?

It seems that the Dome became less powerful at that point. And since the Ancestors are manifestations of the Forces of Dome, they were going to deal with this threat to Enroth. This nicely explains why Melian didn't stop the Elemental Lords in MotE. Melian could be the one who charged Ancestors to dealwith the Elemental Lords, too.

Now really, what in the name of Krohn are Archangels?

Angels seems to be one of the races raised by the Ancients just like elves, humans, dwarves, orcs, dragons,goblins, demons etc.

The Hall of Judgement. Now what could that be? Looking at screenies from the Chronicle videos I can see that there is a window with stars in the hall. Maybe it's in the Void...

It seems to be some kind of out-of-phase place just like Castle Calindra in M&M5 and Arslengard/Tomb of Thousand Terrors.

Lucifer Kreegan = a Vanguard member? (He could only be slain by Armageddon's Blade)

Definetly not. Lucifer if the ordinary Kreegan Devil who led the remnants of invading forces in Eeofol after the destruction of Colony Zod and Xenofex's death. There was no mention that Lucifer can be killed only by Armageddon's Blade. It's possible that Xenofex was the Vanguard memder, but he seems to be some officer like Malustar or king.

Whatever happened to the Vori Elves and the Tatalians?

Tatlians - mostly eliminated in Reckoining, remnants fled to Axeoth. Same I think for Vori Elves.

How about the Boatman (that's Death from MM6, but I like to connect him with the Conquest of the Underworld guy)? Could he also be a Forces of the Dome personification?

Ressurection of the party that was in M&M6-8 have nothing to do with canon storyline (it was to make save/load system a bit more fun) and is totlly through game mechanics. Same for movies after party's death. So, Death from M&M6 have nothing to do with the storline and it isn't Boatman. Boatman can't be the Forces Dome personification because if he was why he charged Tarnum to bring artifact to him in exchange of revealing an entrance to the nextt level of the Underworld? Ancestors are the Forces of Dome personification, too.

Carverax from The Shadowsmith says he is the "slayer of demons"... hmm. Though Demons and Kreegans are seperate races according to Heroes Chronicles.

Non-Kreegan demons I think. Demons on this planet also could be Shadowsmith's monsters.

MM Tribute features the Creators, I wonder if they will be further mentioned in LotA. There may be a conflict in new lore we'd have some fun speculating about.

Conflict? Why? I don't assume MMT canon since it screwed up the location of Karigor. LotA have no actual contradictions, explains some facts of post-M&M8/SoD storyline and was approved by UbiSoft. So, LotA is canon

And now the big one again: What are the Ancients?

Extrmemely tech-advenced humans it seems. But there can be the good chance that they are in fact dragons and the phantasy-style dragons from thir world are Ancient's descendants:).**

And now the big one again: What are the Ancients?

Actually, magic is not the only energy provided by Wire. And the Wielders don't seem to be sorcerers. But yes - magic also seems to originate from Wire.

He has knowledge of both Colony and Axeoth, and is called a native of the Plane of Death. I'd imagine that would make him older even than the Ancients and the universe itself - like another Elemental Lord, per se - so I doubt that he and Skraelos are one.

Well, there is a major flaw in your storyline bible (no offence). As told in M&M3, when the Ancients created the worldseed, physical manifestations of the savage natural forces, Elementals, emerged and attacked the colonists' civilisations. Ancients decided to fix this negative effect and used the Forces of Dome*** to banish Elementals into the four Elemental Planes (described as the "four corners of the Void" in Terran legend from M&M3 manual). Dome kept Elementals on the stable level. The text from Chronicles might imply that this event was 10000 years ago. So, the Elements didn't created planets Enroth and Axeoth - they were created just like all natural planets in the universe (the way we learn in Physics;)). Elementals were used by the Escaton on Enroth who was to create the pure union of four elemental energies through his technology (Crystal).
Elemental Manipulation mentioned in M&M3 is not the "manipulation over the Elements/Elementals*****.
Elemental Lords also briefly came to CRON - their battles crated it's microcosm (M&M2 manual), which wasn't in fact used by the Ancients for any purpose, since CRON is their ship which carries VARNs (they already had microcosm). The Elemental Planes were also present in WoX as the part of XEEN project, but weren't actually used by the Ancients****.
So, since there are only four Elemental Planes (Plane of Magic is kind of crossing between them through its description in MotE), which aren't older that universe in fact, I doubt that the place Gauldoth say Dar One is the Plane of Death. Gauldoth wasn't sure about it and he might not know what was this place or Dark One were in fact.
I have the thought that this Dark One is in fact Necros after Crusaders and this dead place was in fact Kreegan-devastated world on which Necros was opening the portal in Crusaders. It's also possible that this place was Afterworld which is Skraelos' domain and the Dark One is in fact Skraelos:

an inhumanly tall figure masked in a black cloak that draped behind him like a shadowy wedding train with a life of its own.

This is very similir to Skraelos' cloth in M&M9.

* Underworld isn't the actual plane - it's deep caverns somewhere in Erathia. In CotE Underworld was cleaned up by the Erathian forces led by Tarnum and Queen Allison.
** Note: Alleron and Daria from Warriors/Shifters are children of Ancients Zinar. This was also used to explain Alleron's shapeshifting ability he developed in Shifters. Necrala, character from Shifters, can be Zinar's daughter.
*** It was only stated that the Forces of Dome were connected to the Ancients and no clear states if they were Ancients themselves or some techmology wielded by the Ancients, but Marzhin provided more in-depth explanation that the Forces of Dome are in fact Artificial Intelligences of the Ancients (whole Dome thing).
**** The Elemental Planes were just used as the suitable enviroment to put Sleepers (who are robots used in the Unification process) in. XEEN was the only flat world through its gole (Unification experiment). There were thousands of other planets created by the Ancients in the Starseed Project and were for the different experiments, so they weren't flat worlds like XEEN.
***** In fact, the Elemental Manipulation is the technology used by the Ancients. It is the manipulation over the energy of the stars, which is used in worldseeding and creation of civilizations and races:

The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds.
This mission has been code named The Great Experiment. It extends further away from the seat of Ancients than any other colonization. It is under much greater threat from Creators.

The Grand Experiment of the Ancients: to use the technology of Elemental Manipulation to create a completebly viable ecological and social microcosm.

[Corlagon]

This will be literally all over the place, so excuse me for that

Angels seems to be one of the races raised by the Ancients just like elves, humans, dwarves, orcs, dragons,goblins, demons etc.

But:

Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.

Just mythical gods worshipped by the Kreegans.

...as far as we know... and we don't know everything, now do we?

There was no mention that Lucifer can be killed only by Armageddon's Blade.

"The pale warrior often called Devil's Bane I have foreseen to be of great import in your endeavor. He alone is the key to victory here. You must see he is given the Blade and sent to Kreelah to face King Lucifer."

I know it is more prophetic than logical but Tamar's statement is enough for me.

Armageddon's Blade isn't ultimate Weapon of the Kreegan - it's the ultimate weapon of Eeofol after destruction of the main kreegan forces on Enroth (Hive and Colony Zod).

Same difference, a Kreegan is still a Kreegan no matter where they may be

Lucifer if the ordinary Kreegan Devil who led the remnants of invading forces in Eeofol after the destruction of Colony Zod and Xenofex's death.

Well, not quite all that ordinary - in Heroes III: RoE, Lucifer is mentioned during the battle to "save" Roland Ironfist from Klessive as being "High Commander Lucifer Kreegan III of Eeofol". To me that sounded like a very prestigous title indeed, worthy of the Vanguard

It's possible that Xenofex was the Vanguard memder, but he seems to be some officer like Malustar or king.

Judging from the fact that he was pretty damned easy to kill in MM7 I doubt that he was in the Vanguard.

Now can we explain exactly how Xenofex transmitted his dream-message to Lucifer? You know, "avenge me and set the world on fire with Armageddon's Blade"?

Ressurection of the party that was in M&M6-8 have nothing to do with canon storyline (it was to make save/load system a bit more fun) and is totlly through game mechanics. Same for movies after party's death. So, Death from M&M6 have nothing to do with the storline and it isn't Boatman.

No. That is really more a matter of opinion than fact IMO. There is zero to suggest that the Boatman / Death is not to be considered a canonical part of the lore, just like you could easily say Chain Lightning or Fireball aren't really part of the storyline yet Tarnum mentions both spells after losing the battle with Vorr.

Hey, did you know one of the Ancestors is female?

Actually Demons are one of the races created by the Ancients.

Debatable.

Non-Kreegan demons I think. Demons on this planet also could be Shadowsmith's monsters.

Yes I think that is right. But these Demons could not have been the Shadowsmith's minions as Carverax was around long before Dubiel became corrupt. It's still something small to ponder about.

Conflict? Why? I don't assume MMT canon since it screwed up the location of Karigor. LotA have no actual contradictions, explains some facts of post-M&M8/SoD storyline and was approved by UbiSoft. So, LotA is canon

Tim Lang, the director of MMIX and an NWC employee, is working closely with the MM Tribute team. So I consider it perfectly canon. Plus we sorta resolved the Karigor matter in another thread, I think it was called "Storyline: The Ancients".

And to be fair, something being approved by Ubisoft who have nothing to do with the old storyline really doesn't make it canon.

So, since there are only four Elemental Planes (Plane of Magic is kind of crossing between them through its description in MotE), which aren't older that universe in fact, I doubt that the place Gauldoth say Dar One is the Plane of Death. Gauldoth wasn't sure about it and he might not know what was this place or Dark One were in fact.

Having lost arguments with Kareeah and Avonu before, I choose not to bring to mind the notion that characters can be "wrong" about things like that unless proven otherwise by the developers, so we can assume it was the Plane of Death. The Plane Between Planes is the Plane of Chaos anyway, and Paradise would be a Plane of Life - one for each aspect of the Dome

My idea that the Elemental Planes are older than the universe comes from MM2's manual:

At first, there was only void. Yet, in the nothing something arose. An ethereal substance capable of supporting life came into existence.

Because this thing is an ethereal substance it cannot be the product of the Ancients. They do not deal in the "spirit" world. The Elemental Lords produced it, and where did they come from...? The Planes.

So, the Elements didn't created planets Enroth and Axeoth - they were created just like all natural planets in the universe (the way we learn in Physics;)).

Nope, that's not what the games imply:

It is told that the world has been formed and destroyed many times. The Lords of Air, the Water, the Fire, and the Earth, will give life... and take it away.

This is very similir to Skraelos' cloth in M&M9.

Skraelos wasn't quite inhumanly tall, though - yet Necros was!

I have the thought that this Dark One is in fact Necros after Crusaders and this dead place was in fact Kreegan-devastated world on which Necros was opening the portal in Crusaders.

That is something I agree with you on because:

Slowly, a gnarled, gray hand came out from the shadowy folds of his cloak and presented the skull of a creature I could not recognize.

Who knows what the skull was, but the hand fits Necros' description down to the last detail. He didn't have the cloak, though.

I do not believe the world / Plane was Kreegan-devastated, however. They are clearly fond of burning their planets to ashes and leaving a load of bones and water behind doesn't sound like something they'd do.

Tatlians - mostly eliminated in Reckoining, remnants fled to Axeoth. Same I think for Vori Elves.

- though either race has yet to make an appearance there.

Actually, magic is not the only energy provided by Wire. And the Wielders don't seem to be sorcerers. But yes - magic also seems to originate from Wire.

I was just being a bit general there - though as for Wielders not being sorcerers, what about the rays of rainbow-magic Amonwelle casts on Nury at the end of Book 1?

Boatman can't be the Forces Dome personification because if he was why he charged Tarnum to bring artifact to him in exchange of revealing an entrance to the nextt level of the Underworld?

Why does anyone do anything?

Underworld isn't the actual plane - it's deep caverns somewhere in Erathia.

Well, where is the hard proof?

This too is very much a matter of opinion or interpretation since we are not given evidence one way or another. I don't believe there can reasonably be caverns as deep or as vast as that, and my thoughts on the Boatman and Death being the same guy allow me to believe that he shuttled them to the "realm of the dead" as it were.

For another example, how can Jorm have travelled to Paradise and dragged Rion back through conjuring that portal so successfully and easily if he was not familiar with plane-shifting in the first place?

The Elemental Planes were just used as the suitable enviroment to put Sleepers (who are robots used in the Unification process) in

That brings to mind an important question - when were the Sleepers "created" in the XEEN timeline, do you know?

Extrmemely tech-advenced humans it seems. But there can be the good chance that they are in fact dragons and the phantasy-style dragons from thir world are Ancient's descendants:).**

That was a hypothetical question.

Well, there is a major flaw in your storyline bible (no offence).

None taken at all, I have not read the MM3 manual anyway so some of my info on the Ancients is a little flawed. Improvements are needed and welcome Thanks for taking the time to answer to all my abstract thoughts, I appreciate it

(If you're talking about my article on Gralkor or something, disregard it for now. I wrote that months ago, long before I had any idea what I was talking about.)

[Marzhin]

How about the Kreegan Gods mentioned in Armageddon's Blade, Erebus and Darqtane?

Well we know (or at least it is strongly implied in MM3) the Kreegans are the legions of minions sent by the Creators to destroy the Ancients' worlds. So they (the Creators) are probably the Kreegans' Gods.

Hey, did you know one of the Ancestors is female?

That's Fre

And to be fair, something being approved by Ubisoft who have nothing to do with the old storyline really doesn't make it canon.

Fair enough, and I totally agree on this.

[Corlagon]

Well we know (or at least it is strongly implied in MM3) the Kreegans are the legions of minions sent by the Creators to destroy the Ancients' worlds. So they (the Creators) are probably the Kreegans' Gods.

On that subject, here are the quotes featuring the presumed Creators...

"Know this Catherine Ironfist, I shall have my revenge. I swear by Erebus the Dark I will flay the skin from your child's bones as you watch. You shall suffer my wrath for this insolence!"

The Kreegans worship dark gods like Erebus, the God of Darkness and Destruction.

This city is Darqtane, named for a dark god long ago thought forgotten by the people of this land. His spirit lives on within the walls of this monument to his twisted soul, for Darqtane was a god of torture and suffering. The screams of Kreegan torture victims are like prayers to his glory.

That's Fre

Really? I mean one of the three from Colony, Tarnum's guys, who are supposed to be "nameless" (apart from Vorr of course). Here is a screenshot from an unused video file in Heroes Chronicles, edited with higher brightness so we can see things clearly enough:



I meant the one in the middle. Judging from the opening of The World Tree, I'm pretty sure the guy on the left side is Vorr. So is the one in the middle Fre, or are we misunderstanding one another?

Fair enough, and I totally agree on this.

Don't get me wrong, I totally accept LotA as canon - I just wanted to make that distinction.

Would you mind explaining how the Forces of the Dome on Colony (Ancestors) can exist away from the planet they're meant to protect (while imprisoned by Vorr)? And how did Vorr, a vital factor in the planet's wellbeing, become corrupted - surely not just because some Krewlish lunatics started worshipping him?

[Marzhin]

That's Fre

Really? I mean one of the three from Colony, Tarnum's guys, who are supposed to be "nameless" (apart from Vorr of course). Here is a screenshot from an unused video file in Heroes Chronicles, edited with higher brightness so we can see things clearly enough:



I meant the one in the middle. Judging from the opening of The World Tree, I'm pretty sure the guy on the left side is Vorr. So is the one in the middle Fre, or are we misunderstanding one another?

Actually I was just joking on the fact that there is also one Goddess in Arlesgard, so it is convenient for my theory :p

Fair enough, and I totally agree on this.

Don't get me wrong, I totally accept LotA as canon - I just wanted to make that distinction.

But actually, the fact Ubisoft gave their Seal of Approval to LotA doesn't make the storyline official or anything. Only NWC knows where they were going to take the story next. So LotA isn't, and can't be, canon. It is "fanon" at best and it's fine this way

Would you mind explaining how the Forces of the Dome on Colony (Ancestors) can exist away from the planet they're meant to protect (while imprisoned by Vorr)? And how did Vorr, a vital factor in the planet's wellbeing, become corrupted - surely not just because some Krewlish lunatics started worshipping him?

Well my theory can't explain everything ^^

So, let's see... I think the Fiery Moon had a Dome also, but as the planet was quite small, maybe there was no need for the Force to maintain "avatars" there. So Vorr simply "downloaded" his and the other Ancestors' personae in this new Dome. I think Vorr was the Force of Might, and as the Forces are connected with the soul of the living, he was corrupted by the twisted ways and the bloodlust of the barbarians. So giving the sap of the tree was the equivalent of simply rebooting his program

Can't think of anything better right now, I'd rather concentrate on Axeoth than explaining all the mysteries of Enroth

[Corlagon]

Thank you

[Demilich]

No. That is really more a matter of opinion than fact IMO. There is zero to suggest that the Boatman / Death is not to be considered a canonical part of the lore, just like you could easily say Chain Lightning or Fireball aren't really part of the storyline yet Tarnum mentions both spells after losing the battle with Vorr.

So, why don't we make Mr.Wizard from M&M3-5 part of canon also?

Tim Lang, the director of MMIX and an NWC employee, is working closely with the MM Tribute team. So I consider it perfectly canon. Plus we sorta resolved the Karigor matter in another thread, I think it was called "Storyline: The Ancients".

I don't think mr. Lang is competent enough to talk about game world he haven't worked on. Just being NWC employer doesn't make him one who can competently answer these contradictory questions. Of course, there could be retcon lore, so - this is not a question worthy to discuss anymore, you are right

And to be fair, something being approved by Ubisoft who have nothing to do with the old storyline really doesn't make it canon.

So? Fallout 3 we can't consider canon 'cos it is being made by people, who have nothing to do with Tim Cain and Co?.. And Ultima Online is not "canon" not 'cos Garriott left?.. No, I think, it as canon just because "current owner of the brand said so". Harsh reality

My idea that the Elemental Planes are older than the universe comes from MM2's manual:

Log of Corak the Mysterious wrote:
At first, there was only void. Yet, in the nothing something arose. An ethereal substance capable of supporting life came into existence.

I think, that by "void" it meant "place of planet", not universe itself. each planet - is an ordered combinanion of elements, held by Force of Dome. The planes can't be older as usiverse, I'm telling this as physicist, so trust me on this

Bastian Loudrin wrote:
It is told that the world has been formed and destroyed many times. The Lords of Air, the Water, the Fire, and the Earth, will give life... and take it away.

Rather "prophetic" words, kind of local legend, don't you think?

This too is very much a matter of opinion or interpretation since we are not given evidence one way or another. I don't believe there can reasonably be caverns as deep or as vast as that, and my thoughts on the Boatman and Death being the same guy allow me to believe that he shuttled them to the "realm of the dead" as it were.

You are right, it is a matter of opinion. As for me, I don't like to tie in staff like Underworld or Paradise to high-technological M&M Universe. I think Underworld - just natural cavens beneath surface, it is common medieval term to all things deep under surface. As for Paradise... i'd define it as "state of soul". A kind of abstract term, yes, but to make a whole Plane... a bit prematurely, no? As for kidnapping Rion's soul by Jorm - it is just a dream, sent to Queen in visions and difinitions she can realize.

Who knows what the skull was, but the hand fits Necros' description down to the last detail. He didn't have the cloak, though.

Why, Necros has a cloak, in PS-version of the game. In Crusaders he get powers of Ancients and Kreegan and gots expelled from Ardon. So he is perfect for the role of God of Death, being a necromancer in mortal life.

Soon I'll post a complete Ardon timeline here, just wait a week or two

[Corlagon]

So, why don't we make Mr.Wizard from M&M3-5 part of canon also?

Let's do that Besides Corak has mentioned him numerous times in the MM3 Manual - why not?

Not much more ridiculous as a guy named "Slicker Silvertongue"...

I think, that by "void" it meant "place of planet", not universe itself.

"From the corners of the misty Void
Rang loud the battle cry
The Elemental lords of four
Had sworn to fight and die"

"the four elements who used fierce storms to fight for supreme control of the Void, a place where there was no land or sky or ocean."

"They came from the depths of the Void"

To me it seems like the universe in general. But yes, in the manuals it probably is referring to the areas nearby the "worlds".

each planet - is an ordered combinanion of elements, held by Force of Dome. The planes can't be older as usiverse, I'm telling this as physicist, so trust me on this

Magic defies physics! I trust you, but I'm still wondering when the Sleepers and Xeen were created.

Rather "prophetic" words, kind of local legend, don't you think?

Okay then, let's take it from the words of the Forces of the Dome:

As they magically transported me to a distant Tower, they explained that when the world was created, the gods forced the Elemental Lords into a 10,000-year truce. Ten thousand years have passed and the violent, selfish Elemental Lords plan to separate all the elements, thus destroying the entire world!

Now we know very well that they created Terra, another planet or "biosphere". So why not Colony? Especially since they were around at the time.

And if seperating the Elements destroys the world, logically putting them together created it.

I don't think mr. Lang is competent enough to talk about game world he haven't worked on.

Just to clarify; Mr. Lang worked as a designer on MM VI-IX. He did work on Colony, to an extent.

So? Fallout 3 we can't consider canon 'cos it is being made by people, who have nothing to do with Tim Cain and Co?.. And Ultima Online is not "canon" not 'cos Garriott left?..

They expanded on their previous universe, whereas Ubival have thrown theirs in the bin.

No, I think, it as canon just because "current owner of the brand said so".

Even though the current owner of the brand has no clue whatsoever? They think Colony's continents are part of Axeoth and obviously didn't even look at Heroes IV's intro:

http://mightandmagic.us.ubi.com/dev_diary_1.php

As for me, I don't like to tie in staff like Underworld or Paradise to high-technological M&M Universe.

Surely the whole MM universe hasn't always been high-tech. Even the Ancients had to start somewhere Magic and technology can co-exist just fine - the Elemental Lords clearly aren't technological beings at all, just manipulated by technology.

As for kidnapping Rion's soul by Jorm - it is just a dream, sent to Queen in visions and difinitions she can realize.

Yet it still happened, or Rion would not have been down there.

Why, Necros has a cloak, in PS-version of the game. In Crusaders he get powers of Ancients and Kreegan and gots expelled from Ardon. So he is perfect for the role of God of Death, being a necromancer in mortal life.

Yep, I agree on him being the perfect guy for the job, just that his cloak wasn't the same as described by Gauldoth. But the Kreegan Gate could have done that to him, who knows.

Soon I'll post a complete Ardon timeline here, just wait a week or two

Waiting I have only played Crusaders so this should be interesting, good luck.

[Demilich]

Not much more ridiculous as a guy named "Slicker Silvertongue"...

Why is he ridiculous?

Now we know very well that they created Terra, another planet or "biosphere". So why not Colony? Especially since they were around at the time

Yes, you might be right on that. Rather logical statement.

Even though the current owner of the brand has no clue whatsoever? They think Colony's continents are part of Axeoth and obviously didn't even look at Heroes IV's intro:

We'll see... I wonder, why couldn't Nival retell them "History of M&M" doc of mine, rather known work in russian rpg-community? (http://www.demilich.250x.com/mm/mm_01.htm) Yes, Ubisoft began from scrape, but knowning a universe - a problem, that could be resolved. They might just give the development to competent people, like our Marzhin

Yep, I agree on him being the perfect guy for the job, just that his cloak wasn't the same as described by Gauldoth. But the Kreegan Gate could have done that to him, who knows.

Maybe he just decided to buy a new one?

Waiting I have only played Crusaders so this should be interesting, good luck.

Very interesting. PS2 version of Warriors is full of lore. I'll tell you even about Drake corpse i found there.

And one more question: is there any offcial info suggestion that Sea of Mist takes place in 1140 on Karogor? Or just another gesture of MMT team? And is Necros have some role in this book? Or just mentioned? And in what content? Clarify this for me, please

[Corlagon]

Why is he ridiculous?

Just his name. Slicker. *shudders* And then there's the "Temple of Baa" - sheepherders

Yes, you might be right on that. Rather logical statement.

Another small hint I came across:

For this reason, I have removed the lords from their realms. They are my "guests" for the time being.

Once the cataclysm has run its course, I will return them so that they might rebuild your realm and theirs."

Implies that the Dark Elven legend is true.

And one more question: is there any offcial info suggestion that Sea of Mist takes place in 1140 on Karogor? Or just another gesture of MMT team? And is Necros have some role in this book? Or just mentioned? And in what content? Clarify this for me, please

I haven't read Sea of Mist unfortunately. As you probably know it includes some characters from Heroes such as Clancy, Alagar and even Nymus (who shouldn't be there yet if she's a Kreegan).

I don't know any other details, but I doubt that "Karigor" is mentioned at all, probably just an effort from MMT to connect it with the rest of the game world

[Demilich]

Now we know very well that they created Terra, another planet or "biosphere". So why not Colony? Especially since they were around at the time

On second thought... But: Elemental Lords didn't create Terra. Terra was water-covered planet with no land on it, before Ancients implanted terrforming modules, carried on Shikhbat Zerra (the ship were Sheltem resided in M&M3), which created Isles of Terra (continents and other land), but the negative effect of this was the destruction of Terran previous, uderwater civilization. Soon after, Sheltem was abducted by Corak and they landed on CRON, in VARN 4 lands (M&M1), then went to lands of CRON (M&M2). These all took four years. When CRON reached Terra, Sheltem was able to teleport on the planet. In the process, he tried to put CRON under water for some time (as told in M&M3), but then he sent CRON to the nearby star (in M&M2 VARN 4 and CRON heroes changed this directive and CRON returned to normal course). When In the same time, CRON seeded Isles of Terra with four VARN's. Sheltem began assimilation process for colonists, animals, plants etc., but he still believed that the colonists are "invading army" for his world and thus assi,ilation process was unnecessarily harsh (War of Aligments, evil cults, monsters etc.). M&M3 begins 9 years after Terran VARN's seeding.
So, Terran legend in M&M3 tells about the Elmentals' emergance durnig the creation of Ancients' worldseed (VARN's). "Land broken into islands" is four Terran VARN's, according to the information from M&M3-5. When the worldseed was created, chaotic wild manifestation of natural forces, Elementals, began to battle each other and then colonists, Forces of Dome were used to tame them and banish to the "four corners of the Void" (Elemental Planes), as told in M&M3 manual.
What Bastian Loudrin said is a Dark Elven legend telling about Escaton coming. "Elements give life and will take it away" means that Water, Air, Fire and Earth are general necessary Elements to support life and Elemental Planes energy will unite to destroy planet, what we see in M&M8 (Escaton crystal). Escaton's crystal crates pure union of four Elemental Planes energies and the release Elements, thus quickly burning and restoring planets surface (as Escatn told in M&M8). This legend is just prediction of crystal's activity.
'Separating all Elements" means that all four Elements wil attack Enroth (what we see in the last MotE map). Since Chronicles have no associative communication with M&M8 (HC storyline almost ignore general story of the planet and M&M), the statement about "gods forcing Elemental Lords into 10,000 years truce" means Forces of Dome taming Elementals.
So, Elementals didn't create Enroth.
And the planet from M&M6-8 and Heroes 1-3 is called Enroth. not Colony. Give me strong evidence if it is. Tin Lang can be competent in Chedian case (such as Nicolai's age), not Enroth.

Implies that the Dark Elven legend is true.

See above about Elemental Lord, Crystal, Tarnum and Terra.

Yet it still happened, or Rion would not have been down there.

Yes, but don't forget that this dream was caused by Deezelisk's spell. So, it leaves room for not considering Paradise an actual Plane.

[Corlagon]

Great explanation overall (damn, if only I had all the text from MM 1-5), however you miss a few points:

the statement about "gods forcing Elemental Lords into 10,000 years truce" means Forces of Dome taming Elementals.

Not necessarily. The Forces took on the form of Gods in Axeoth, but not necessarily on Colony. If he were referring to the Forces, Tarnum would have said "Ancestors" instead.

And the planet from M&M6-8 and Heroes 1-3 is called Enroth. not Colony. Give me strong evidence if it is.

On second thought... But: Elemental Lords didn't create Terra. Terra was water-covered planet with no land on it, before Ancients implanted terrforming modules

That much is true, my mistake.

Still, they most likely did create Terra at some point, prior to the Isles' creation. See below...

So, Elementals didn't create Enroth.

Oh yes they did. Even the Elementals themselves are convinced that their Lords did it...

Perhaps the reason I am not affected by the madness is that I carry with me an amulet given to me by the lord of this plane, Shalwend. It is said in our legends that he and the other elemental lords made your world.

And here's final, absolute, undeniable, unquestionable proof from Escaton himself.

Your world will be destroyed by the elemental forces that created it. The crystal in Jadame's central city compels those who live on the elemental planes to open their worlds onto yours.

Yes, but don't forget that this dream was caused by Deezelisk's spell. So, it leaves room for not considering Paradise an actual Plane.

Still, Rion himself says he was "kidnapped from Paradise". One can hardly kidnap a person from a "state of soul".

So I'm pretty sure Paradise is a Plane of some sort, even if you can't normally see or visit it.