Inferno and Haven Info

[JSE]

I think it's obvious that both towns are H3 clones with a few variations — then again, the whole game looks very much like a H3 clone (including the story)... And no, Nival/Ubi Soft, this is definitely not what fans want!



Apart from that, calling the knight's town "Haven" sounds like a clear misconception to me — the town was only called that way in Heroes 4 because in the game's story it served as a base for human refugees from the world of Enroth. Why not calling it "Castle"? It makes a lot more sense, and it was called this way in Heroes 3, a game you are certainly familiar with

[JSE]

No, Vitirr, we don't say it for the fun of it but because it's a striking and sad truth.



Waiting with this sort of criticism until the game is released wouldn't actually make any sense at all because then nothing can be changed anymore.

[Vitirr]

What I mean JSE is that we didn't get any new info with this faction cards to support that idea. We already knew there will be 7 units by town, all with upgrades, and we already knew almost all those units, (perhaps not completely officially but we knew them). So why to say this about H3 with new graphics again?. I just don't get it.



I just say let's wait to get any new info that supports that idea to repeat it again.

[JSE]

Of course, this criticism is not new, it has been uttered since Ubi Soft revealed the first pieces of information — and with good reason...



However, applying new criticism is not what I intend to do. The reason why I repeat the "H3 clone" theory is that I want to make it heard — especially by Ubi Soft. We know that Fabrice reads the forums and probably these comments, too; I would like to see any sort of statement from him or maybe Mr. Le Breton and Mr. Dansky themselves.

[Sir Charles]

Okay, for you people who keep saying "H3 clone".....here are some H4 items that have made their way into H5. Peasants have taxpayer skill, Militia Guards have Stun like H4 Squires. Archers have area-attacks like H4 cyclops. Succubus has a ranged counter-attack like the h4 retaliation style. Nightmares' Terror ability. Offensive spell-casting units like in h4. Archdevils can summon support troops like in h4 (although it's now pit lords and not ice demons). So basically I vote that we all drop this "h3 clone" nonsence. There are similarities to ALL the Heroes incarnations. Plus a lot of unique features as well. What more could you ask for? Sheesh!

[Tyreal]

I hope the inquisitor looks better than the priest the halo thing around his head doesn't look all that good. I really like the way the h3 priest and zealot looked I don't really care for the new look all that much.

[Wildbear]

H3 is the only Heroes game to have griffins in the knight's alignment, and actually the only Heroes game to have the Inferno as a town. Heroes 3 is also the only Heroes game with one upgrade per creature. It's hard to believe it's more than an upgraded version of H3 with all the elements we had so far.

Yes, creatures do have their own skills as they do in H4, but that is only one element. The magic schools? It was already in the first heroes game where there was a probability for each spell to appear in each kind of town. It's enhanced, yes, but still so close from H3 that it does look like an H3 clone.

[Sir Charles]

I was only referring to the information released yesterday. So what are these great features that everyone wants from h4 that are CONFIRMED to be left out of h5? The caravan? Nope, that's more than likely in h5...they've been asking for suggestions on how to best implement it. What else? Heroes on the battlefield? Nope, thats in as well...to an extent. They did a rather nice job IMO of merging the h3 and h4 systems in regards to heroes on the battlefield. So what else? Simutaneous retaliation system? Well, here's one where they're definitely going the h3 route. But I can promise you that they at least looked at the h4 system and considered it. Just remember that we have very limited information available at the present time and to automatically assume that they're making an h3 clone is simply ridiculous. I'm seeing MANY similarities between h3 AND h4 in this game. *waits for someone to point out these numerous features being ignored from the "great" game that was h4* ....... *still waiting*

[kurios]

Why is the caravan so objectionable?. I thought it is an useful tool to bring troops to strategic defensive town and as a 'refilling stop' for your main adventurer hero. Its like a supply line.

[Wildbear]

Err wait a second, choices in creatures (not always, but sometimes it would have been nice, as requested by many players), the caravan is still confirmed as out, there are only rumors of them reconsidering something (but what...), simultaneous retaliation as you wrote, owning windmills and watermills, ballistaes and catapults as units, creatures without heroes (probably creature movement points since chaining is told to be back), weekly growth rate, fog of war, 3 levels per skill rather than 5, etc.

[Marelt Ekiran]

OMG, this is so innovative. I can't believe that they actually switched the position of the swordfighter and the griffin in the line-up. What a revolutionary thought...

[HodgePodge]

Golly, gee we get an Inquisitor. Where have I heard of that name before? Oh yeah, in Disciples II they have an Inquisitor unit as an upgrade of something or other.



What a bold-faced rip off. Couldn't Ubi/Niv come up with an original name all by themselves, without resorting to using names from other games?



Wonder what kind of skill(s) the Inquisitor will have over the Priest? Ranged? Healers? Spellcasting? Fear? Meditation? Excommunication? Damnation? Revelation? Procrastination?

[Ryder]

What a load of revamped crap.

[Sir Charles]

Okay, let me try to respond here. Okay, first off...the caravan. Yes, the last that anyone from Ubisoft/Nival has mentioned the caravan has said it's out. BUT...Fabrice himself has been asking for suggestions on how to implement it after all the objections from the fans about it being left out. That's not a rumor. They are working on it. Whether it will make the final cut depends upon the fact if the design works well within the system that's already in place. Owning windmills/watermills. Wow...that is a VERY minor detail IMO. If you want the resources from these places it should be a conscious decision to get them. Ballista/catapults as units...um, when was a catapult a unit? The ballista as a unit was a poor idea if you ask me. Better to just leave it as a purchasable item. Creatures without heroes. Again, a poor idea. Having wandering monsters actually "wander" WAS a good idea, but having owned units moving around by themselves was a bad one. These units should have commanders telling them where to go and when. After all it is called HEROES of might and magic. The game should most definitely revolve around those heroes. Weekly growth rate...while more realistic, it eliminated many tactical aspects of the game. Realism isn't always a GOOD thing in a game. Fog of war...this one will be debated until the end of time. Lots of people liked it because it was more realistic...but others hated it because of the annoyance factor (myself included). 3 levels of skills instead of 5. Well, seeing as how we have no accurate idea of how many actual skills we're going to have, I'll wait until I make any kind of decision on this one. But MORE is not always better.



As for innovative or revolutionary...who said they were going for those goals? IMO I think they should be looking to re-establish the brand name with this game rather than trying to come up with something so completely different from the previous versions that it doesn't even resemble Heroes. They're trying to balance on a vary pecarious ledge here folks. They're trying to please the fans of the older games, bring in new gamers, and at the same time trying to distance themselves from the bad reputation that the Might and Magic brand acquired with the last 2 releases of Heroes 4 and M&M 9. While most of the early information released so far is somewhat familiar, what else would you expect from a company trying to lure in fans by things they're familiar with. I'm sure I won't convince you of any of this, but you've got to try to look at things from the companies perspective and not your own. Simply by looking at most of these comments I can assume that you all loved Heroes 4. Well, that is NOT a sentiment shared by very many.

[Wildbear]

So it's a H3 clone, thank you, we don't need you anymore, Whatever you wrote is the full crappy list of lame arguments from any average H3 fanboy. I has been discussed more than enough and I don't want to go again through all of this, I always won so drop it.



Oh and the catapult was a unit in H4 WoW.

[Sir Charles]

I forgot about the WoW unit. My bad.



H3 fan boy?!? Far from it. I orchestrated and ran the Heroes 4 sections for H3trio since the beginning. I was EXTREMELY optimistic prior to it's release. I played it religiously for nearly 6 months. But it never lived up to the promise of the game that it could've been. The bugs were overwhelming, the AI non-existant, the storyline was full of holes and uninteresting, and it simply failed to capture that addictiveness that H2 and H3 possessed. I never found myself enraptured with that "one more turn" syndrome. Trust me, I gave that game every opportunity to capture my attention. It simply wasn't as entrancing as it's predecessors.



You won all those discussions? *laughs* Okay then. So apparently you're privy to EVERY nuance of Heroes 5. You know what the developers are going to decide before THEY decide themselves? Give me a HUGE break. You and many others are doing a rather good job of turning fans away from this game before it's even fleshed out. You have NO CLUE what the finished product will be like. PERIOD. My comments are only trying to put things in perspective. Yours on the other hand are simply trying to bash a game that isn't even close to finished yet. But why am I even bothering....you'll obviously win this debate. *rolls eyes at the oblivious Wildbear*

[Fnord]

Absolutely, Sir Charles, you summarize it very well. So far, I like almost all the decisions I've seen them confirm about H5. Indeed, H3 is still the most popular game and if they're taking many features from H3 but improving on the game as a whole, I think it will end up being excellent.



Most of the H4 features they rejected are ones I didn't like either. The daily growth sounded like a neat idea and I thought it would be great, but after I tried it I found myself missing the weekly growth that provided a framework for strategic planning and more importantly a better sense of time--all the days blurred into one another in H4 with very few start or end-of-week considerations. Similarly, the windmills and water wheels acting as a type of special mine really bugged me. Mines are fine but we already had them..these were special structures where you could get extra resources *if* you made the effort each week to go out and get them. In H4, you didn't even get a weekly report of the new resources (that might have helped a little).



As for the Haven lineup being virtually identical to the H3 Castle, well so what? It was a good lineup so why throw out what worked? And upgrades for all troops--well, it might have been interesting to have a mixed upgrade system again (like H2) but in the interests of balancing it, it was probably better to go with the H3 system. Besides which, it's nice to have the variety that similar but slightly-different troop types bring to the game, especially for custom map-making (consdering also that the design time is probably a lot shorter for a variation than for completely different creatures). As for the name "Haven" (taken from H4), it's an okay name although and I can see how it could fit in a lot of situations, although a new one might have been a nice change too. The problem with "Castle" as a town type is that every town has a castles which sometimes leads to a bit of confusion.



The one criticism here I do agree with is that "Succubus Favorite" as a name for the upgraded Succubus. It just sounds silly so I really hope they can come up with a replacement. Even something corny like "Succubus Queen" or "Succubus Duchess" would sound better.



But seriously, for either the upgraded or downgraded versions, how about Succubus Nymph or Succubus Mistress?

[Wildbear]

H4 was a bad game so all features were bad, ok, that's the smartest thing you can write, isn't it?

And until now you didn't manage to prove it was not more of an H3 clone than anything else, so yes, period.

[Sir Charles]

Did I say all the H4 features were bad ones? No. Can you read at all? lol. The caravan, nice idea. Most likely it will be back. Fabrice even posted this statement "I'll post the plan for implementing them, so that you can point out how to improve that." So to me, that's NOT a rumor. But I digress...Heroes on the battlefield, another nice idea...just poorly implemented. Simutaneous retaliation...another nice idea...unfortunately it took away many tactical options IMO. Split build trees...another good idea. There were LOTS of good ideas with H4, but that was the problem. They had all these great ideas, but not the time to implement them properly. 3do simply pushed NWC to much for them to balance the game correctly. So was h4 a bad game? In comparison to previous NWC titles...YES. Compared to other non-NWC turn-based titles...NO.



As for the Succubus name....I personally couldn't care less. Besides, these names are far from permanent. I'm sure we'll see tons of minor modifications along those lines around the time of the beta's.

[Wildbear]

You didn't say it, but you wrote the usual stuff about every little feature to be badly implemented and you're supporting the idea of having about all of them out, so there's no difference.



And you continue to avoid the main point: H3-clone.



You only told that in your opinion going back to the H3 system for all those features was a good move, without thinking there could be other ways. Yes, they turned back those features to H3, they didn't improve a lot from what we've seen until now. If they show us new and original stuff then it'll be ok, but at this stage it looks like nothing but an H3-clone.