Of Necropolis and "unbeatableness"

[csarmi]

Why Thant? I think Galthran is much better, so is Isra and Vidomina. Animate Dead brings some troops back but i don't think it's needed, you won't have losses anyways.

[Derek]

Why Thant? I think Galthran is much better, so is Isra and Vidomina. Animate Dead brings some troops back but i don't think it's needed, you won't have losses anyways.

The map has those garrisons that have the relativly powerful stacks of shooters. Since this so early in the game I will not have anything that will be too effective against them, as in ranged units, so I thought Thant would be better so that I might be able to cut my losses. Those lizards got morale bonuses 3 times! Animate dead was quite helpful in that battle.

In most sitautions they, Isra..etc, would be better, but the garrisons were the deciding factor for me. I'll try it again as them and see if anything is changed.

[SmokingBarrel]

210 skeletons are intimidating, but the last time I fought Vulcanic his grand elves picked all of 'em out before I could even reach.

[Vulcanic]

210 skeletions intimidating? Are they skeleton warriors or not? All the same these skeletons can't scare anybody. Kill them with ranged units or take advantage of their poor speed to maul them before they even come over. The pile of skeletons won't help you anyway. Fast build for big units and crush them. So what are they for?

[SmokingBarrel]

All the same these skeletons can't scare anybody. Kill them with ranged units or take advantage of their poor speed to maul them before they even come over. The pile of skeletons won't help you anyway. Fast build for big units and crush them. So what are they for?

Look, they have many uses, like stealing retaliation or spending one of the opponents attack on them. Just that I can't see why that is going to help Necropolis become unbeatable.

[Derek]

210 skeletions intimidating? Are they skeleton warriors or not? All the same these skeletons can't scare anybody. Kill them with ranged units or take advantage of their poor speed to maul them before they even come over. The pile of skeletons won't help you anyway. Fast build for big units and crush them. So what are they for?

That many skels is quite scary as, if you had noticed, I am playing as Thant and would be able to reanimate about 50 every round. Scared yet? I highly doubt that you'd be able to field an army that would be able to combat them effectivly, and be able to survive the onslaught from my liches in the back row. Oh yes, don't forget about those liches...

[Bandobras Took]

210 skeletions intimidating? Are they skeleton warriors or not? All the same these skeletons can't scare anybody. Kill them with ranged units or take advantage of their poor speed to maul them before they even come over. The pile of skeletons won't help you anyway. Fast build for big units and crush them. So what are they for?

That many skels is quite scary as, if you had noticed, I am playing as Thant and would be able to reanimate about 50 every round. Scared yet? I highly doubt that you'd be able to field an army that would be able to combat them effectivly, and be able to survive the onslaught from my liches in the back row. Oh yes, don't forget about those liches...

Not particularly, unless you managed to acquire some spectacular knowledge in that time. The whole question is whether the Necropolis has unbeatable advantage. At most, at the end of week two, you'll have nine liches. Take that another week and you'll have fifteen.

To pick an example at random, in those three weeks, an Inferno might well be fielding 10 Efreet Sultans. They also might be featuring a stack of No-Retaliation Cerberi.

There's no question that the Skeleton raising helps the Necropolis, but I don't think that it becomes unbeatable.

[Banedon]

I must admit I don't feel too threatened by 210 Skeletons. I will try the map myself soon, and should have results by tomorrow.

[csarmi]

I must admit I don't feel too threatened by 210 Skeletons. I will try the map myself soon, and should have results by tomorrow.

Yea but I think I would have much more and they keep coming in large numbers (transformer anyone?).

And may god save you if I get Galthran and I upgrade those bonies. That's speed 6 (speed 7 on dirt). They win the battle alone, that's what you should be afraid of.

Besides, Thant can be nice, but yes, you DO have troops to fight those shooters. Vampires and Wights are cool. Hm. Maybe only on dirt though.

Might be a wise choice, since you probably can't afford to upgrade to lords week 1.

A little calculation:

by the end of week 2, you'll have 3 angels, 9 zealots, 15 crusaders in the best case (add 2 champions, horde of marksmen and some troops you got from secondary castles).

In a possible week 3 fight I'll have about 400 skeleton warriors. Even if your army is headed by 5 archangels, there is no hope for you. FYI, the skeletons kill any troop of your stack in one hit except the angels.

[val-gaav]

Necroplis is banned in most MP turnaments.... In second week u get 300+ skeletons from necromancy ... This gives a clear advantage to the necro player ...

[bethrezen_2]

I play only random xl maps..and necropolis it's banned for skeletons!
If pass one month and necropolis it's not foud by enemy(on xl maps it's possible) then necro will win!
Conflux it's also very good..but only pheonix are good..maybe magic elementals can do something, but in rest i think it's weak! It's true that conflux it's banned in most cases!

[Banedon]

You're giving me 5 Archangels against your 400 Skeleton Warriors?! Your Skeleton Warriors may kill any of my creatures in one hit, but only if they strike without me wrecking their numbers (and you can be sure I am going to kill them).

I sure won't mind a fight where I have 5 Archangels, 15 Zealots, 23 Crusaders, 6 Champions and 60 Marksmen against your 400 Skeleton Warriors. You would have no chance - no chance at all.

Oh, and I highly doubt you can get 3 Angels by the end of week 2.

[val-gaav]

Oh, and I highly doubt you can get 3 Angels by the end of week 2.

Depends on map but I had several games where I had Portal of glory and castl build in first week .... So it's possibe to have them in 2 week ....

[csarmi]

You're giving me 5 Archangels against your 400 Skeleton Warriors?! Your Skeleton Warriors may kill any of my creatures in one hit, but only if they strike without me wrecking their numbers (and you can be sure I am going to kill them).

I sure won't mind a fight where I have 5 Archangels, 15 Zealots, 23 Crusaders, 6 Champions and 60 Marksmen against your 400 Skeleton Warriors. You would have no chance - no chance at all.

Oh, and I highly doubt you can get 3 Angels by the end of week 2.

You built angels and castle week 1 in my example.
And necro has a full army too. Think about how balanced this fight is:

407 skeleton warriors
35 zombies
27 wraiths
20 vampire lords
15 power liches
6 dread knights
3 ghost dragons

versus

88 halberdiers
61 marksmen
27 royal griffins
20 crusaders
15 zealots
6 champions
5 archangels

Do you really think you have a chance? And if you let the necro continue the game he shall get even stronger.

About conflux, let's see:

Sprites: huge numbers, great damage, no retaliation with 9 speed. Even pixies have 7 speed already, that is, combined with...

Air Elementals: 7 speed, huge damage and hp; your heroes start fast and stay fast. I don't wanna talk about storm elementals.

Water Elementals: do you actually believe you can start the game with 6-10 of them if you are lucky. I wouldn't either. But it's true. Amazing hp, good damage and a great oppurtunity to play them out for the last hp for no losses. In the end they are still too strong for a level 3 (and ice elemtentals are nice too).

Energy Elemental: well, they are weak, but fast. They are there to be sacrificed on shooters.

Magma Elemental: slow, but quite strong.

Magic Elemental: one-hex hydra with magic immunity. No one likes to fight them.

4 phoenixes a weak. talking about balance.

Dwellings are very easy to build. Firebird is cheap.
Magic University is unbelievable.
Elementalists start with 0033 AND magic skill (guaranteed earth if you want to).
Planewalkers probably have the best levelling amongst all and they field heroes such as Monere. Wow!
Various immunities of troops.

EVERYTHING is unbalanced about conflux. I think in some cases they can even challenge necro. Not on XL maps, though.

[Derek]

Oh, and I highly doubt you can get 3 Angels by the end of week 2.

I don't think this is a realistic outcome on any map. The amount of money required for the dwellings...you just wouldn't be able to buy out your troops.

Not particularly, unless you managed to acquire some spectacular knowledge in that time. The whole question is whether the Necropolis has unbeatable advantage. At most, at the end of week two, you'll have nine liches. Take that another week and you'll have fifteen.

I did manage to get a knowledge of 4, quite nice everything considered. This allowed me to cast 3, because of earth magic, animate deads in any battle, and this would allow me to effectivly wield around 370 skels in any battle. Keep in mind that this was the second week, and I could have just kept getting more. Your point about the liches is well taken, but they would be more than enough to force my opponent to come in closer. If they came in too close then I would be able to pummel them with their attacks. I do not think that the Necro is unbeatable, but I do think that they are certainly one of the top 3 towns.

Yea but I think I would have much more and they keep coming in large numbers (transformer anyone?).

I must admit that I did not utilize the transformer to its full potential. Certainly I could have done better if I would have recruited heroes so that I might be able to throw their units into the mix, as in turning their gremlins into skels. I shall give the map another go, as I was not thinking of the transformer at the time. And yes, there was a large stack of imps just one day away. They would have helped my army quite a bit.

[csarmi]

On most of ToH maps people do build angels+castle week 1.
Not too harsh random templates, %.

Hehe I tried it and the first skill i got offered was diplomacy with my necromancer

I tried this One for all map, but I got bored too fast. Started blue and I got 4 cities in like 5 days with 60% necromancy coming my way (and too much heroes and i hate chaining.). It's a sure break week 2, but this map is so small it's not even funny. I did not need Thant. The guards are all insanely easy.

[Derek]

Just played as Galthran and...well...I had about 305 skels(warriors that is). That is much, much better. The additional speed was a great help, and made the neutrals just that much easier. Thant is better for the end game, but at the start it becomes apparent that Galthran is better at massing an impenetrable army.

Csarmi, I assume you played as Isra(special of Necromancy). How many skels did you manage to get at the end of the map?

[SmokingBarrel]

Angels+castle on week 1? Amazing, only got it once. Still can't get how you guys amass that army cause if I play necropolis battles offer me barely any skeletons at all. Doesn't matter if you manage to get a bunch of skeletons. Main thing is that is Necro unbeatable? In XL maps you may have a bunch of skeletons,but the result would still be the same, a few whacks of some lvl 7 creature and its down....

[Vulcanic]

OK, so maybe you have some skeletons, but if I rush you early, your skeletons cant save you, can it? When I played the map "warlords", I brought some grand elves and charged the necropolis. He only had 80 skeletons, and that's not going to save him.

All the same, I don't see why some batch of skeletons are scary. you can just take them with a first attack, and against high level types they won't pull a dint. But if you're talking about stealing retaliation or sneaking in a attack, they must be good.

Get some centaur captains and take the skeletons first. After the first mauling, they can't do much anymore.

[Banedon]

I did promise to test myself, and I will do that shortly after I make this post.

EVERYTHING is unbalanced about conflux. I think in some cases they can even challenge necro. Not on XL maps, though.

Conflux defeats Necropolis on any map. Think about it. Necromancy might suffice to grant you 80 Skeleton Warriors a week. Can 2 Phoenixes defeat 80 Skeleton Warriors? They can, and so Conflux would win the larger the map is.

You built angels and castle week 1 in my example.
And necro has a full army too. Think about how balanced this fight is:

You won't have Wraiths or Zombies, since Necropolis not only never builds those units, chances are the Necro player would convert them to skeletons.

I must say that I do not feel this battle is impossible, and surely wouldn't mind giving it a try.

I did manage to get a knowledge of 4, quite nice everything considered. This allowed me to cast 3, because of earth magic, animate deads in any battle, and this would allow me to effectivly wield around 370 skels in any battle.

I wouldn't really care if they can't reach the Ranged units shooting them down

I tried this One for all map, but I got bored too fast. Started blue and I got 4 cities in like 5 days with 60% necromancy coming my way (and too much heroes and i hate chaining.). It's a sure break week 2, but this map is so small it's not even funny. I did not need Thant. The guards are all insanely easy.

I can't help but wonder what Nucleon would think after reading this post Would he still call you a coward, or would he accuse you of exaggeration?

EDIT: After trying it myself I must say I am a little bewildered, since at the start of week 3 I found my armies stretched all over. Not that I'd split my main army, but rather I had a horde of creatures waiting for me to recruit at home, but no money to recruit them. All this happened at the start of week 3, before I moved on that turn.

Anyway this was what I had:

A level 8 Ivor, 4-7-4-2

30 Grand Elves
2 Black Knights
75 Centaurs

29 Centaurs and 6 War Unicorns being chained to Ivor

28 Centaurs, 40 Dwarves, 14 Grand Elves, 25 Pegasi, 15 Dendroids Guards, 4 War Unicorns and 3 Green Dragons to recruit

4 towns controlled

I must admit I did get lucky once (early on one stack of Centaurs elected to join me), but I refused to learn Diplomacy even when I got it. Ivor started with 10 Elves (in this I took a page out of your book csarmi I'd hoped for 12 though, and Kyrre would have been even better) and I lost a few of them here and there. Strangely I found myself unable to upgrade my Centaurs (no time). I played this map at a frantic pace but definitely not perfectly (since I had not much prior knowledge of the map). I did everything I would if it were a serious game, taking Obelisks and learning long-term skills. My most obvious mistake is definitely not moving someone up to take the Rampart town after I'd broken out.

I did not capture 4 towns by day 5 (since I was dawdling and forgot about the Rampart town to the Northwest), but I'm quite satisfied with my performance.

To intepret the results:

My army will probably defeat Derek's, with or without the extra reinforcements waiting to be recruited (I will need my chained units though). If csarmi did capture 4 towns by day 5, then his army will almost certainly squash mine. However, I am not sure what to read from this, since I have no idea how much the skill gap played in obtaining this results.

I would be very interested though if Nucleon replicated this test Nucleon, can you do it? It would be a fine way to test our skills against each other without playing a game.