Reality and Fantasy, a discussion.

[Corribus]

But I"M REAL....

Unfortunately.

[okrane]

I would say that Jules Verne's tales were fantasy until science made them happen...

[ThunderTitan]

I'm still waiting for a gun that shoots people at the moon.

[Ethric]

I'm closed-minded and arrogant because I don't believe in fairies, but it's perfectly reasonable and fair when a fundamentalist discards out of hand all the evidence for, say, evolution or the age of the earth. Seems like an unfair double-standard to me.

You miss my point entirely. Which was: attack the issue and not the man. Now once you HAVE attacked the man instead of the issue, I have no qualms about describing that behaviour in unfavourable words.

I question anyone's seriousness when they state that one day fairies will one day be generally accepted. So what? I'm not allowed to question someone's seriousness?

You questioned nothing, you made a statement. But perhaps I misunderstood your intentions, if so I am sorry to have made the wrong conclusion. But maybe type a bit more than a oneliner next time, to prevent confusion

And along the lines of what Caradoc said, a lot of modern science would be on the same line as pixies for me if it weren't for the fact that I do trust scientists to have some idea of what they are doing Anyone else explaining gargantuan anomalies in their calculations with the presence of vast quantities of invisible... stuff (talking about astrophysics), would get fired

Hey, come to think of it, I am a scientist too, holding a masters degree of science of law. I guess I'm arrogant enough, so only need to work on my closedmindedness Aww, allright, sorry sorry. But still, it is not uncommon for people with new ideas to get ridiculed and frozen out of scientific societies because their ideas don't fit the current dogma. Of course, sometimes those people really are goofballs, well deserving of a good round of ridicule, but sometims they are actually right, or more right than those who laughed.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Maybe one day some things like the existance of ghosts or faeries/elementals will become generally accepted (again) and then stories that are now considered fantasy would not be fantasy anymore.

You can't be serious.

I did not say that they do or do not exist. But my mind is open to the possibility.

Can you be sure that they don't exist? How do you explain things like what I referenced in that particular Ghost Hunters episode?

By faery I did not mean necessarily a small winged creature. Can you rule out that there are beings who are more spirit or energy than physical? Are you sure that life has to be carbon based? If they exist perhaps they are beings than came here from some other planet or maybe they have always coexisted with man.

Faeries are also sometimes called elementals or elemental spirits. Here is a linkto interesting speculation about elementals.

As for ghosts, there are 3 theories that I am familiar with:
1) They are the spirits of the dead.
2) They are beings that are pretending to be spirits of the dead.
3) They are a sort of an "imprint" or "memory" of a person who once lived in the area. Somehow strong emotions (like a violent death) at the time of death cause the imprint.

GOW

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I question anyone's seriousness when they state that one day fairies will one day be generally accepted. So what? I'm not allowed to question someone's seriousness? I did not come out and say "you dumb moron, you believe in fairies?" I am truthfully incredulous that anyone out there actually thinks that pixies will one day be as apparent as squirrels and dolphins. So, yes, I wanted to know if GOW is serious in that statement, and then you insult me.

I did not say that one day faeries will one day be commonly accepted. I said:

Maybe one day some things like the existance of ghosts or faeries/elementals will become generally accepted (again) and then stories that are now considered fantasy would not be fantasy anymore.

I did just alter what I said by highlighting **Maybe** in bold. There are things that science once "knew" were facts that aren't considered facts today. There are things today that science says are "facts" that will not be considered facts in the future.

But my main point in the post is that what is considered fantasy or science fiction depends on our perspective now and our future perspectives. I thought my statements in that regard were clear.

GOW

[asandir]

I consider it to be imagination, especially in relation to the wondrous, the fantastic

[Corribus]

I did not say that they do or do not exist. But my mind is open to the possibility.

Why? Is your mind open to the possibility that the flying spaghetti monster is real, or that ice-cubes rule the universe? At what point to you declare that something is out of the realm of possibility?

Can you be sure that they don't exist? How do you explain things like what I referenced in that particular Ghost Hunters episode?

I didn't see the episode. But I stopped believing in ghosts when I was a kid. When I was a child, I remember a particular episode where I was convinced there was a nasty monster outside my window because of this horrid scratching noise. My parents tried to assure me that it was nothing, but I refused to believe it was anything other than an evil demon intent on taking me to a bad, bad place. Then I found, the noise was nothing other than a tree branch scraping on the siding of the house.

Whatever was in the video to which you allude, if it was even a video that wasn't doctored, there was a perfectly logical, scientific explanation for it.

By faery I did not mean necessarily a small winged creature. Can you rule out that there are beings who are more spirit or energy than physical?

Can I rule it out, scientifically? No. But as in our discussion of God in the religion thread, mythical spirits not bound by empirical laws can NOT be ruled out (or in) scientifically. Does that mean that such creatures do not or can not exist? No. But ice-cube overlords or carnivorous pumpkin demons are equally viable under such an open interpretation of possibility. I believe in what I can see, what I can hear and what CAN be seen and felt. I don't believe that conceptions of mythical creatures that may or may exist in some undefined way is productive.

Are you sure that life has to be carbon based?

Knowing what I know of physics, chemistry and biology, yes I'm fairly certain. Carbon is a special bird.

If they exist perhaps they are beings than came here from some other planet or maybe they have always coexisted with man.

I find that to be quite an untenable hypothesis that is based in mere speculation.

Faeries are also sometimes called elementals or elemental spirits. Here is a linkto interesting speculation about elementals.

GOW sometimes I can't quite figure you out.

As for ghosts, there are 3 theories that I am familiar with:
1) They are the spirits of the dead.
2) They are beings that are pretending to be spirits of the dead.
3) They are a sort of an "imprint" or "memory" of a person who once lived in the area. Somehow strong emotions (like a violent death) at the time of death cause the imprint.

I'll bypass for a second the fact that these aren't theories in the scientific sense. What if I told you that I theorize that ghosts were polka-dotted ballerina elephants that got stuck in another undefined dimension while they were eating a particular flavor of ultra-dense sweetened meatball? Now you're familiar with a fourth theory. Sound ridiculous? Maybe... but if anything in the realm of imagination can be real, then why not? You probably won't see the point I'm trying to make here and construe that as just mocking you, but I'm really not. There *is* a boundary between fantasy and reality, and it's defined by empiricism.

There are things that science once "knew" were facts that aren't considered facts today.

Name one.

There are things today that science says are "facts" that will not be considered facts in the future.

Even if this were true, it's an unfair comparison. Things which science says are "facts" today may indeed be shown to be erronious at some later date (actually, probably inaccurate or incomplete is a better word). But the very fact that they can be shown - through observation and experimentation - to be inaccurate or incomplete is an important distinction. If the "object" in question cannot be capable of being observed, then it will never be "proven" to exist one way or the other. Sort of why God will never be proven, and why religion, faith, mysticism can never be judged on scientific grounds. Believe in them if you will, but they are beliefs without a rational basis.

But my main point in the post is that what is considered fantasy or science fiction depends on our perspective ...

No, I disagree.

I thought my statements in that regard were clear.

Clear as a sunny day, my friend. But... I disagree with them.

[Mytical]

Hmm I am to assume that if I say that I have seen ghosts for certain that some would consider me mad or delusional. Not a third cousin twice removed, not some distant form that could have possibly been something else..

I am talking personal first hand, and in one case one walked straight through me. It is not something controlled, I can not see spirits on demand or anything. I have never made any money or such by my experience, nor do I seek to.

[asandir]

and see I am a sceptic, but I don't take it all that seriously, just cause I don't believe in ghosts doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it make people who've "seen" them kooky .... but I'm just a nice guy like that

[HodgePodge]

Maybe one day some things like the existance of ghosts or faeries/elementals will become generally accepted (again) and then stories that are now considered fantasy would not be fantasy anymore.

You can't be serious.

Ah yes, the open mind of the scientist.

There are more things in heaven and earth
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

… from Hamlet (Act I, Scene V)

by Wm. Shakespeare

[Jolly Joker]

Adding my 2 cents here, Mytical.

Fantasy is just another (modern) word for fairy tale.
As such the main constituant of "fantasy" is NOT the existence of magic (you don't need magic for a story to be "fantasy", it's the existence of "other" intelligent or semi-intelligent races like Dwarves, Trolls, Fairies, Leprechauns and so on, all not a modern invention, but part of the old fairy tales. Of course "Witches" and therefore magic could be part of the old fairy tales as well.

So fantasy is "just" a contemporary word for fairy tale.

[theLuckyDragon]

Why? Is your mind open to the possibility that the flying spaghetti monster is real, or that ice-cubes rule the universe? At what point to you declare that something is out of the realm of possibility?

You keep giving examples that are from the start ridiculous and somewhat belittle the subject discussed. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is an intentionally ridiculous construct; one would automatically dismiss it as absurd, so it's not a good example, IMO. Ice-cubes ruling the universe is another rather ridiculous one.

Do you perhaps believe that if fantastical creatures and events exist, then anything you can think of might just be true and needs to be considered? Is that why you give such examples?

Well why not take examples from among the elements that have been in the common human consciousness/imagination/call it what you will for ages. Why not talk about unicorns or elves or Alchera? Or even ghosts, for that matter. All these things have been with us (in the sense: humanity has talked about them) for a longer time that the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Name one.

If I'm not mistaken, people once believed ether was the medium that transmitted electromagnetic waves.

Or a more classic example: the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it.

No, I disagree.

Well that wraps it up then, doesn't it?

[Ethric]

Why? Is your mind open to the possibility that the flying spaghetti monster is real, or that ice-cubes rule the universe? At what point to you declare that something is out of the realm of possibility?

Some are reluctant to rule out anything, because really, you can't ever know for sure. Flying spaghetti monster? Well I've never seen one. But there's lots of things I haven't seen, that doesn't mean anything. It does however seem quite unlikely. Then there are other mystical stuff like ghosts, that does seem slightly more likely to be actual phenomena than a flying spaghetti monster creating the world.

Of course, the flying spaghetti monster is clearly made up by one guy, that makes it easier to discount than stuff people have claimed to see since forever, with the occasional weird finding when people try to look into it (talking about ghosts). My guess is that unless it's all bogus and hallucination, it's some freaky energy phenomenon. But I can't say for sure that it isn't some residual imprint of dead people, even though I doubt it. As I am not omnicogniscient (or however it's spelt).

Ice-cubes, eh? Well it IS freakishly cold in large parts of the universe, so maybe you are on to something.

[Mytical]

The FSM is often used by some to argue symantics or as a straw man argument. When something comes up that can not be explained, instead of saying "We are not sure about this yet, but do not believe currently that it is true" they bring out things like the FSM.

As somebody who has experienced strange events first hand, I will be the first to say "I have no idea what it was, nor how to explain it, but it may not be of supernatural origin. Could be any number of factors that caused possible hallucinations or a number of other valid explinations. Research is on-going. So far I can not rule out supernatural origins."

Personally if you desire to believe in a certain higher being (yes even the FSM) and it causes no others harm, I see no harm in it. Faith has done strange things, even from people in religions sometimes mocked. I believe that reality and fantasy may not be as cut and dry as people think. Just because something is described in a certain way leading one to believe it never truely occured, does not mean that it acctually never really occured.

[okrane]

Like I always stated in previous threads, where discussions of this kind were ardently motivating forum members into stating their best arguments for proving or disproving silly topics (yes religion and the existance of god is a silly topic), in order to have a conversation of this type, you must DEFINE THE TERMS you are utilizing.

So first of all, as the topic's title clearly has two important terms in it, I should ask all of you to define: Reality and Fantasy. Just because an object exists, does not make it reality and just because it doesn't exist does not make it fantasy... and all arguments will foolishly revolve around these types of misconceptions and each and every one of you will exploit weak spots in the definition of the other's terms in order to create a so called valid explanation of their beliefs.

These conversations are so childish that I cannot wonder how can grown up adults still want to have them and furthermore find them interesting... because they're not...

[theLuckyDragon]

Now I know the difference between fantasy and reality, and am not here to argue about that (or anything actually). I do, however, want to know what lines must be crossed for a story to go from Non-Fiction to fantasy.

To stick to the topic (which wasn't "Do you believe in fantasy being real"):

I think it's pretty simple to put a story in the fantasy genre: does it have elves, gnomes, unicorns? Then it's fantasy. Are there powerful artefacts that can alter reality? Then it's fantasy. Do wizards and witches wielding spells and charms that can also alter reality appear? Then it's fantasy.

Sure, there are stories in which not all these elements are present, in which the 'fantasy factor' is more discrete, so to say, but I still think they could be placed in the category of fantasy. Or maybe somewhere near the middle of the spectrum non-fiction/fantasy.

These conversations are so childish that I cannot wonder how can grown up adults still want to have them and furthermore find them interesting... because they're not...

Gee, thanks for pointing out our uselessness.
Why then did you engage in this conversation?

[Mytical]

Easy way to solve that Okrane. If you find the discussions inane and childish, just do not partake in them, nor follow them. See religion, despite your personal belief is an important thing in a lot of peoples life. As long as discussion is civil, there is no reason not to have them. Philosophical debates are healthy. They can even spur creativity, inventiveness, and insight.

What is reality? What is fantasy? When is the line between them crossed.

I am going to put here a tale, you tell me if it is something that happened (reality) or if it is made up (fantasy).

Me and my family decided to go get something called...Ice Cream..from the Queen of Dairy. We went outside where an iron dragon awaited us. Once we were on our way, we came to a place where colored fairies, bound to servitude, rested. The red fairy was active at first, but then the green fairy told us it was ok to proceed. When we arrived at our destination we went to a .. window and proceeded to ask for our Ice Cream. One of the trolls at the window then went to a frost demon and had it make the frozen cream. We then devoured the frozen cream, after paying for it, and returned home.

[Ethric]

As they said, Okrane, if you don't like a thread don't post.

There is no definitive general border between fantasy and reality, IMO. You'll have to define each scenario on it's own merits, since so much is defined by setting and atmosphere. Can very well be fantasy even if there are no clearly supernatural devices, if the setting is right.

[Jolly Joker]

Who knows? As far as I know, Solipsism hasn't been proven wrong up to now, so everything could be everyone's personal fantasy and lots of realities existing. That's certainly true for some we like to describe as mentally ill.
So I don't see factual proof for the existance of "a" reality, not to mention of "one" reality, not to mention what "existance" means and how real is that.
And that's only PHYSICAL reality. If you think about emotional realities, of how different two people will live and feel through the same event, talk, comment and so on or even how different memories of the same event turn out to be when you compare them with each other, I think there's no telling where fantasy starts.