Question about AI Quality

[Jolly Joker]

What do you mean, you realize that you are a better player? You ARE a better player than the AI. There isn't much realization necessary. What you say sound a bit like this: I want to be able to tell the opponent exactly what "cheats" he or she or it can use - so that I'll still win.

In your premise you were talking about a human player. So when I was trying to help you actually come up with a good premise instead of the terrible premise you used I used the same thing that you did ... I.E. a human player.

This is vastly closer to what would be a good premise for the point that you were trying to show than what was actually used.

EDIT: Removed unneccessary shouting.

Are you kidding? In this example you very obviously know you are better than your human opponent.

[Alamar]

What do you mean, you realize that you are a better player? You ARE a better player than the AI. There isn't much realization necessary. What you say sound a bit like this: I want to be able to tell the opponent exactly what "cheats" he or she or it can use - so that I'll still win.

In your premise you were talking about a human player. So when I was trying to help you actually come up with a good premise instead of the terrible premise you used I used the same thing that you did ... I.E. a human player.

This is vastly closer to what would be a good premise for the point that you were trying to show than what was actually used.

EDIT: Removed unneccessary shouting.

Are you kidding? In this example you very obviously know you are better than your human opponent.

Never mind man ... I'm sure we're just not communicating properly. It's possible I misread your original premise OR you misread my response.

BTW: Of course I know that almost ANY human is going to be better at HoMM than an AI.

P.S. I consider myself a bad-to-mediocre HoMM player. If I can win almost all the time on heroic I think almost any experienced player can.

[Elvin]

Let me think.I play with someone,he tells me he will cheat and then I see he has cheated.Should I feel he cheated?I'd probably laugh at this and call him a cheater Actually it depends on how grateful I would be at the moment but a cheat is a cheat.Only small ones should be allowed.

Grateful? Don't understand that. For what?
Let me ask you a question. Why did you play on in the first place?

Oops,sorry for that! I meant generous.Why I play?A bit of exploration,discovering new strategies,perfecting my current skills and of course trying to defeat my enemy,be him a friend or AI.On the last part I posted my thoughts a while ago.The more difficult it is while not getting free stuff the better.

[Jolly Joker]

Well, no, I asked why you played on in the first place when he told you he would cheat and get a week's production? I mean, if someone tells you, I'm going to cheat you, it's very bad style, IMO (!), to say, well, go ahead, and then, later, when you see 1) heck, he did it, and 2) heck, I'm losing, cry fire and murder.
I mean, there are so many situations in life when you just KNOW you are going to be cheated. On a fair, for example. You just KNOW, you'll get ripped off when you go to a fortune teller or whatever. If you DO go to a fortune teller and she tells you, you'll be happy and marry within a year and have two beautiful children, will you go ahead and cry foul when a year has passed and you're still on your own?
Nope. No cheating involved. You knew the stakes.

[winterfate]

Jolly Joker wrote:

Well, no, I asked why you played on in the first place when he told you he would cheat and get a week's production? I mean, if someone tells you, I'm going to cheat you, it's very bad style, IMO (!), to say, well, go ahead, and then, later, when you see 1) heck, he did it, and 2) heck, I'm losing, cry fire and murder.
I mean, there are so many situations in life when you just KNOW you are going to be cheated. On a fair, for example. You just KNOW, you'll get ripped off when you go to a fortune teller or whatever. If you DO go to a fortune teller and she tells you, you'll be happy and marry within a year and have two beautiful children, will you go ahead and cry foul when a year has passed and you're still on your own?
Nope. No cheating involved. You knew the stakes.

Um....and isn't that what the Heroic AI does in HV? It's the same thing. Heck, it's worse because it's using multiple rather abusive cheats at the same time. Here are two of them:

1. It builds it's structures at insanely cheap prices.
2. It can defeat HUGE stack of neutral creatures without casualties (or minor casualties).

So, in other words, what the computer does in Heroes V at Heroic is also "very bad style".

[Jolly Joker]

Yes, but you KNOW about it. So it's no cheat. The AI tells you what it will do, so you can make plans about it. So it's no cheat.

[Elvin]

@JJ
I don't know,you told me I went on and saw he had cheated! I would probably think he was joking because telling me so is stupid on its own.Then after witnessing the cheat I'd either stop playing or go on anyway and tell him 'wow,you beat me unfair and square,you should be proud of yourself!'
What do your examples have to do with playing a game?Haven't you heard of fairplay?If you win against a cheater who plays badly it doesn't matter because he was idiot enough to lose even though he had an edge and if you lose you don't like it but it still doesn't matter because it wasn't fair.Of course the AI is something different but I still dislike cheating.Why would I have to like it in a product?The H3(didn't play much H2) was not that good and we could have expected something at least equal if not vastly better.In this respect cheating feels like a cheap excuse of not making a good AI.Not outstanding,good.

[Alamar]

I think that JJ's point is that he doesn't want us to use the word "cheat" because he feels that it's not cheating if you go into the game knowing exactly what the AI will do. I imagine JJ would prefer the phrase "known AI bonuses" instead of cheats.

When discussing AI bonuses I still prefer to use the word cheat though because it gets to the heart of the matter. The thing is I think an AI should cheat to be competitive. I do think though that the cheats should be subtle and kept to the bare minimum though.

[Elvin]

@Alamar
I agree on the matter.Considering JJ 's point,I believe the exact opposite:Even if I know the AI will do that it still IS a cheat.Calling it something else or accepting it changes nothing.

[winterfate]

Alamar wrote:

I think that JJ's point is that he doesn't want us to use the word "cheat" because he feels that it's not cheating if you go into the game knowing exactly what the AI will do. I imagine JJ would prefer the phrase "known AI bonuses" instead of cheats.

hahaha. That was real good . "Known AI bonuses" are cheats...smothered in honey to make them taste better (or make them easier to swallow). .

Alamar wrote:

When discussing AI bonuses I still prefer to use the word cheat though because it gets to the heart of the matter. The thing is I think an AI should cheat to be competitive. I do think though that the cheats should be subtle and kept to the bare minimum though.

Exactly...I wholeheartedly agree.

[ThunderTitan]

Yes, but you KNOW about it. So it's no cheat. The AI tells you what it will do, so you can make plans about it. So it's no cheat.

Need i say more?

[Jolly Joker]

@Elvin
I think H 3 had a very bad AI. Impossible difficulty? Come on. The AI in H3 is a joke.
The main thing is the following: the AI is no "player". Every semblance of "brains" is just accidentally and
you don't fight a duel of brains against brains here.
You said this:
"If you win against a cheater who plays badly it doesn't matter because he was idiot enough to lose even though he had an edge and if you lose you don't like it but it still doesn't matter because it wasn't fair."
That is exactly the situation with the AI, NO MATTER THE WAY IT IS PROGRAMMED OR WHETHER IT CHEATS OR NOT.
Think about it. Beating the AI has NO "worth" at all, because it is the AI, a mechanism.
It's basically like this: you want the AI to be able to create irregular numbers (like Pi or e, I hope you know what I mean), so that you cannot foretell the next digit when you see 3.14. You have to make the calculation. However, the AI doesn't have irregular numbers, it has only regular numbers, so instead of Pi it can present you only 22/7 - and you CAN tell every digit as soon as you have realized that there will be always the same .142857 series again and again and again.

[Jolly Joker]

Yes, but you KNOW about it. So it's no cheat. The AI tells you what it will do, so you can make plans about it. So it's no cheat.

Need i say more?

Not specifically against you, TT, but I'm not surprised that some people here are not able to see the difference. If you are boxing and your opponet says I'm going into the fight with some 30 pounds more than you the guy isn't cheating you. He tells you he has an advantage over you. Where is the darn cheat? You WANTED a heroic fight. So the guy comes and says, ok, I'm 30 pounds up, still on for a fight? Where is the cheat?
Yeah, I know, you say now, ah, but I want an opponent who weighs just the same, but is boxing better than me.
PLAY AGAINST A HUMAN THEN!

[Elvin]

I'll give it one more shot.Yes,defeating the AI right now has no worth.But if the AI was better it would be challenging.Why leave it as it is when almost all the people that play heroes 5 are not satisfied with it??

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Jolly Joker:

Not specifically against you, TT, but I'm not surprised that some people here are not able to see the difference. If you are boxing and your opponet says I'm going into the fight with some 30 pounds more than you the guy isn't cheating you. He tells you he has an advantage over you. Where is the darn cheat? You WANTED a heroic fight. So the guy comes and says, ok, I'm 30 pounds up, still on for a fight? Where is the cheat?
Yeah, I know, you say now, ah, but I want an opponent who weighs just the same, but is boxing better than me.
PLAY AGAINST A HUMAN THEN!

In boxing, one of the following two things would happen if that were true.

1. The overweight boxer would be disqualified (different weight class and all).

2. They would let him fight, but in a title match, having so much additional weight, he automatically forfeits the title belt (meaning that even if he wins, he doesn't win the title).

But back on-topic.

Elvin says:

I'll give it one more shot.Yes,defeating the AI right now has no worth.But if the AI was better it would be challenging.Why leave it as it is when almost all the people that play heroes 5 are not satisfied with it??

Exactly. My thoughts exactly.

[Jolly Joker]

I'll give it one more shot.Yes,defeating the AI right now has no worth.But if the AI was better it would be challenging.Why leave it as it is when almost all the people that play heroes 5 are not satisfied with it??

What do you mean, if the AI was better it would be challenging? How can the AI be "challenging"? It's something mechanical. Didn't you read my last post?
The people that play H 5 are not satisfied with the AI because they have difficulties to win, but feel they are not beaten "fairly". You could say they are overpowered by mass. Easy and simple:

ISN'T ALL HEROIC STUFF MADE OF VICTORIES AGAINST OVERWHELMING ODDS?

I bet you are a fan of LotR or Star Wars or any other of that. OVERWHELMING ODDS! No?

[winterfate]

Jolly Joker:

What do you mean, if the AI was better it would be challenging? How can the AI be "challenging"? It's something mechanical. Didn't you read my last post?
The people that play H 5 are not satisfied with the AI because they have difficulties to win, but feel they are not beaten "fairly". You could say they are overpowered by mass. Easy and simple:

ISN'T ALL HEROIC STUFF MADE OF VICTORIES AGAINST OVERWHELMING ODDS?

I bet you are a fan of LotR or Star Wars or any other of that. OVERWHELMING ODDS! No?

Um, what I'm not satisfied with is a moronic AI that has to cheat to even put up a challenge (Hard) or win (Heroic). And of course the AI can be challenging (ever play Rise of Nations? granted that RoN is an RTS and Heroes 5 is a TBS, but in Rise of Nations the computer has to make even more decisions on what to do, as you many towns to micromanage simultaneously)... it's just a matter of programming.

[Elvin]

What do you mean, if the AI was better it would be challenging? How can the AI be "challenging"? It's something mechanical. Didn't you read my last post?
The people that play H 5 are not satisfied with the AI because they have difficulties to win, but feel they are not beaten "fairly". You could say they are overpowered by mass.

Ask Kasparov the first one.And don't worry I can handle myself on heroic but I still don't like it.I just want to face more skill not freebies,you find it too much to ask?As the rest do.Is it a coincidence?

[DaemianLucifer]

@Jolly Joker
You still manage to amuze me!If you know about it its not cheating?

Ok,first if a guy told me "Hey,Im gonna cheat",Id laugh and then stop playing him.Simple as that.If hes a worse player,fine Ill give him a slight advantage by either not playing for the first few days,or sending him a few of my resources,or handicapping my starting resources.But hed still have to play under the same rules as me.No decreased cost,no easier fights,no nothing like that.If you know that someone is cheating,that still doesnt change the fact that he is cheating.

[Elvin]

There you go,a logical fella! Athough an evil,soul-devouring one
Nice one DL,I had forgotten I would give extra resources to some people in H3 to conpensate! Especially the +1 gold would always drive my friend crazy! (Alright that was to piss him)
Ah good times!