Question about AI Quality

Blaze85 · Unread postby **Blaze85** » 08 Dec 2006, 03:27

Oh and it's sad too when the AI hero is running after my level 1 hero with a shieldguard instead of capturing my goldmine or town.
Though i had a pleasant surprise today. Two heroes were after my level 1, running around underground. Then after a few rounds they choose different directions and it looked like they were trying to enclose my hero. Finally they caught him. I wish there were more good features like this about the AI...

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 08 Dec 2006, 15:32

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Alamar wrote: The AI without extra mines already has basically UNLIMITED funds so your taking of its mines really isn't doing ANYTHING to hamper the AI economy because it has more $ than it could possibly spend anyway ....
Depends on the map size,the day you rush in,and the development path it took.And I already did say that the numbers are too high,so its not about the system but its implementation.Decrease of 50% of the price should be the highest decrease it gets.

I was just pointing out that with the current price reduction combined with the starting resources the AI gets that taking an AI mine really won't help much.

On day 1 on heroic difficulty the AI gets the equivalent of:

120,000 Gold
90 Wood
90 Ore
45 Crystal
45 Gems
45 Mercury
45 Sulfer

If the AI takes one of each mine with the resource piles just laying around it's likely that the AI won't need resources after week 2 or so. Many [most?] large MP maps are not designed to allow you past the guardians quickly enough to effectively raid the AI.

Also note that once the AI has built it's castle then a Capitol and Resource Silo will give the AI enough funds to buy out the entire castle in just 3 or 4 days.

IMHO a better solution would be:

1. Change the amount of resources that the AI starts with. What that number is I'm not sure ....

2. Don't give the AI any discounts whatsoever. If should need to pay what I pay.

3. If the AI gets extra funds then give it to them daily as a small daily bonus [as needed]

4. Allow mapmakers control of what bonuses the AI gets and how often. You should be able to EASILY override the bonuses the AI gets.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 08 Dec 2006, 17:03

It's called

HEROIC

Does anyone thing you could program an AI that would fight with the same weapons than a human and make it heroically difficult to win?

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 08 Dec 2006, 17:07

Jolly Joker wrote: Does anyone thing you could program an AI that would fight with the same weapons than a human and make it heroically difficult to win?

Yup.It already has been done in galciv.

Gaidal Cain · Unread postby **Gaidal Cain** » 08 Dec 2006, 17:17

Jolly Joker wrote:Does anyone thing you could program an AI that would fight with the same weapons than a human and make it heroically difficult to win?

Nope, because that's not only impractical, it's also vastly beyond our current ability. The relevant question is if one can make an AI that, without doing something that a human in principle couldn't do, still can make it heroically difficult.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 08 Dec 2006, 21:45

Jolly Joker wrote:It's called

HEROIC

Does anyone thing you could program an AI that would fight with the same weapons than a human and make it heroically difficult to win?

Oh I do believe an AI should cheat ... but getting 12X your resources to start and an ongoing 3x of your resources is way too much. This is AI cheating of heroic proportions

I would contend that a good AI with this level of cheats should wipe the floor with a human player 100% of the time. A better AI combined with lower cheats would be preferred.

If you need hints at where to start how about having AI heroes pick their skills intelligently. When you hire a defeated AI [necro] 19th level hero and their only magic skill was at basic level, in the 6th skill slot, and that skill was basic light magic then something is terribly broken.

Once the AI builds competitive heroes then maybe you could back off the starting advantage to 10X instead of 12X

Caradoc · Unread postby **Caradoc** » 10 Dec 2006, 16:41

It would be possible to design a game around the capabilities of the AI, so that the AI would play optimally and the player would not have access to tricks or tactics that the AI would not also be able to use.

This would insure a competitive opponent without cheating. However, it would mean that in order to win half the time, the player would have to play the same way as the AI. Winning would become a matter of luck rather than skill.

What you really want from an AI is a challenge that requires you to play well in order to win. If that means feeding it more resources, then so be it.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 10 Dec 2006, 16:54

Caradoc wrote:What you really want from an AI is a challenge that requires you to play well in order to win. If that means feeding it more resources, then so be it.

But IMHO feeding it unlimited resources effectively on day 1 is the worst possible way to do it. The game you play against the AI as it is currently is NOT HoMM .... it's something else.

To make myself clear I think that it's likely the AI will need bonus resources. The issue I have is the amount of bonus and he ways in which the bonuses are structured.

What I want from the AI, in no particular order, are:

1. A good challenge.

2. The illusion that the AI is playing by the same rules that I am. Right now the AI relies on OVERT cheating. A set of more subtle cheats would be greatly preferred.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 10 Dec 2006, 17:00

Alamar wrote: 2. The illusion that the AI is playing by the same rules that I am. Right now the AI relies on OVERT cheating. A set of more subtle cheats would be greatly preferred.

But that would actualy take effort... we don't want them to actualy sweat while making the AI, do we?!

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 10 Dec 2006, 17:46

Getting more resources is not cheating. "Cheating" is bending the rules without the opponent knowing it. You simply play against fairly rich neighbours - on heroic and to a lesser extent on hard. That neighbours furthermore have spies all around you so that they know what you are doing. You know that. That's not cheating. It's a different opponent.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 10 Dec 2006, 18:06

Yes,AI is not cheating,he only gets some more gold for free and gets to pay less for purchasing things.Cheating is bending the rules,not this.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 10 Dec 2006, 18:11

Jolly Joker wrote:Getting more resources is not cheating. "Cheating" is bending the rules without the opponent knowing it. You simply play against fairly rich neighbours - on heroic and to a lesser extent on hard. That neighbours furthermore have spies all around you so that they know what you are doing. You know that. That's not cheating. It's a different opponent.

Whether you call it a cheat or handicap I would still say that it would be nice for the AI to do a better job so that the overt nature of the handicaps can be reduced while still keeping the challenge levels the same.

As it is one of the primary goals that I have for an AI ... the illusion that I'm playing against something that plays by the same rules that I am is fairly convincingly shattered.

EDIT: I don't necessarily blame JJ for wanting us to use a different word than "cheat".

Elvin · Unread postby **Elvin** » 10 Dec 2006, 18:13

Jolly Joker wrote:Getting more resources is not cheating. "Cheating" is bending the rules without the opponent knowing it.

I proudly present the quote of the millennium

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 10 Dec 2006, 18:58

No, thanks, too much honor.
Elvin, get real here. If you play against a human opponent in mp and the human opponent says to you, well, I found a nice cheat giving me an additional weekly production and I'm going to use that cheat now, will you feel cheated? More specifically, if you meet your opponent and he's got something like half a weekly production more than you, will you feel cheated?

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:04

Jolly Joker wrote:No, thanks, too much honor.
Elvin, get real here. If you play against a human opponent in mp and the human opponent says to you, well, I found a nice cheat giving me an additional weekly production and I'm going to use that cheat now, will you feel cheated? More specifically, if you meet your opponent and he's got something like half a weekly production more than you, will you feel cheated?

Can I answer for Elvin?? If so then I'd say of course I would feel cheated given your premise.

A better example would be for you to realize you're a better player than the opponnent and you tell them to use the cheat. Then when you meet and the opponnent has more troops than you then you shouldn't feel cheated .....

Elvin · Unread postby **Elvin** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:23

Let me think.I play with someone,he tells me he will cheat and then I see he has cheated.Should I feel he cheated?I'd probably laugh at this and call him a cheater

Actually it depends on how grateful I would be at the moment but a cheat is a cheat.Only small ones should be allowed.
Come on,wouldn't you like to see a more competent AI with less gold/resources income?Not even close to human ability but a decent one.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:24

What do you mean, you realize that you are a better player? You ARE a better player than the AI. There isn't much realization necessary. What you say sound a bit like this: I want to be able to tell the opponent exactly what "cheats" he or she or it can use - so that I'll still win.

Elvin · Unread postby **Elvin** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:28

I still would rather try more to win.In comparison it's like defeating a young boy with better equipment whereas I want to fight someone more experienced.

Edit:
It's all in the effort I put in defeating it,not the feeling of superiority.I just want a good fight,knowing it doesn't cheat as much but has more capabilities.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:30

Jolly Joker wrote:What do you mean, you realize that you are a better player? You ARE a better player than the AI. There isn't much realization necessary. What you say sound a bit like this: I want to be able to tell the opponent exactly what "cheats" he or she or it can use - so that I'll still win.

In your premise you were talking about a human player. So when I was trying to help you actually come up with a good premise instead of the terrible premise you used I used the same thing that you did ... I.E. a human player.

This is vastly closer to what would be a good premise for the point that you were trying to show than what was actually used.

EDIT: Removed unneccessary shouting.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 10 Dec 2006, 19:41

Elvin wrote:Let me think.I play with someone,he tells me he will cheat and then I see he has cheated.Should I feel he cheated?I'd probably laugh at this and call him a cheater Actually it depends on how grateful I would be at the moment but a cheat is a cheat.Only small ones should be allowed.

Grateful? Don't understand that. For what?
Let me ask you a question. Why did you play on in the first place?

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Question about AI Quality

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