Question about AI Quality

[PhoenixReborn]

Phoenix Reborn - Campaigns are scripted....those battles are set, meaning you can't lose.

I beg your pardon? So when I had Isabel defending a castle in the necromancer campaign, and there was an objective not to lose her, it wasn't possible for me to lose her?

[winterfate]

Just dropped in to give my opinion on the subject .

The AI for Heroes V is rather flawed, to put it lightly. Just today, I was playing Warlords on Normal (modded for 4 teams of 2 instead of FFA) and my dad attacked an enemy hero who had a relatively small army, but part of that army was 92 Sprites and 42 Master Hunters. The computer, upon my dad attacking him, just picked up and fled on his first action .

You know how much potential damage 42 Master Hunters can do? (That's why I love Elves ). I would've stayed and fought (enough good luck rolls can win a fight, which kind of gives me the impression that the computer doesn't know what it is doing when it calculates it's chances for winning a fight..

So, basically yeah. The AI needs a lot of help.
Lower difficulties : Too stupid, too cowardly
Higher difficulties: Too much of a cheat, too brave

[Jolly Joker]

It's rather normal that things of the past are glorified, but this looks more like a bad case of collective memory loss.
The AI in Heroes III cheats MASSIVELY. Not only do you start out with very different starting amounts, the AI does get more creatures each week on higher difficulty, it sees your every move and it gets more stuff as well. Moreover it's dumb like hell, in battle as well as on the adventure map. You can even trick the H 3 AI to attack your town by simply splitting the troops of your main hero to hero and garrison (so you could say the AI doesn't know that Garrison and Hero troops are combined in case of an attack).
In siege battles where the opposing hero has so much of a tactics advantage that the own moat is a valid deployment hex, you can watch the interesting spectacle sometimes (depending on the forces) that the AI will move part of their units into the moat when deploying - more often than once at that because someimes it doesn't like the resulting formation and it changes it again... and again, so much so I've seen whole stacks vanishing due to moat damage before the battle actually commenced.

I have asked this question, but I do it again: do you really want to maintain the claim that H 3 had a good AI when everyone and their dog can start a map on impossible diff where you begin with NOTHING at all and win easily when you survive the first weeks (depending on map size, how long)?

What I think is, that H 3 had the best AI to make people think how clever they are to beat the AI on the highest difficulty level (which is way more difficult in Heroes II, by the way).

I honestly think that people are pissed that in Heroes V they cannot just claim the easy heroic wins. Start a map on heroic, get steamrollered twice and it goes, man, what a cheater; sure, I lost, but that AI is no fun, it cheats, it gets these big advantages and stuff. How unfair.

The AI does need some behaviour fixes (try attacking Pit Fiends with a good-sized stack of Steel Golems, for example), but in general it gets the job done.

[Campaigner]

Phoenix Reborn - Campaigns are scripted....those battles are set, meaning you can't lose.

I beg your pardon? So when I had Isabel defending a castle in the necromancer campaign, and there was an objective not to lose her, it wasn't possible for me to lose her?

....Man these smarta** questions annoy me....you know the answer as good as I do! Ofcourse you CAN lose a battle but if you play your cards right you'll win!


Jolly Joker - Interesting. Didn't know that the Heroes III A.I cheated like that....
You don't happen to know if there was plans to include a cheatfree difficulty at one time or what reason Nival gave not to include one?

[MistWeaver]

goddamnit .. Im sick of it.

Every time when fans complain about something in H5, either Nival or JJ appears and begin well known song "look H3 - has(had) same sh1t"
When ppl complained "where is mapeditor", Nival answered "h3 initialy had no mapeditor as well" But everyone who played H3 RoE knows that it was. Those who didnt play can read first reviews on H3. There IS a mentioning about mapeditor.

Now JJ goes again with "H3 cheats MASSIVELY".
But:
1) On "hard" AI starts with the same amount of resources as human. It is writen
2) About extra creatures growth. JJ, I ask you again, show me the source of your info. Because here I have a fresh screenie for you:
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2828 ... estdz1.jpg

Difficulty "IMPOSSIBLE"

[Mytical]

Actually easy heroic wins are quite possible. It is in how you define easy. Survive the first few waves and it becomes a cake walk. It's pretty much like the computer just gives up. Sure, it takes time, because the AI has a lot more funds, has cheaper creatures, and will be able to build everything while buying creatures, but that does not make it hard. After you survive it just turtles itself. You can conquer the whole map, have all the resource generators, and more then likely 2 or 3 towns which (eventually) out generates the Enemy AI. Then it just comes down to atrition. Is this hard? No. Now on the other hand with the cheaper creatures if it continued to attack for the rest of the game, then it would deffinately be lopsided in the AI's favor. Again, not a good thing.

Besides starting funds, and building every turn like it says, I don't think the AI should get any extra perks. It should however press it's early advantage constantly. Flag mines, ect voratiously, build cleverly, and hire resource collectors. Then once the enemy is found it should attack constantly. Sacrificing half or more of it's creatures a week will only start hurting it later, while keeping the main enemy hero occupied would benifit it immediately. After a few weeks, since it will have a much bigger army on its main hero the new creatures should ALL be thrown at the enemy. Sure if he wins he gets a lot of exp, but he looses tons of creatures in the forey, and the AI's main person is still gobbling up realistate while his is trapped within at most 3 1/2 days away from his/her starting castle or risk loosing it to the voratious AI attacks. That way when you win, you can honestly say it was a Heroic struggle.

This doesn't happen for some reason, after about week 5 (maybe 6 if your lucky) the computer just throws it's hands up, and goes back to sulk in it's main city. It doesn't take much after to conquer the map and just beat it through battle of attrition. That's not heroic in my opinon. Others opinon's may vary, and each person can think what they like, but this is mine.

[MistWeaver]

33, 50 and 66% cheaper stuff is definetly cheating.

Compared to free 10k its much better.

Yes, Ive said that earlier. But still this is a big cheat.

I beg your pardon? So when I had Isabel defending a castle in the necromancer campaign, and there was an objective not to lose her, it wasn't possible for me to lose her?

Scripted - that means that AI can attack you (or not attack.. or anything) with ANY army, with ANY hero when map designer wants it. For example there can be script that will make AI attack your town every day with 10k dragons. But during battle you will receive 10k archangels. Got it ?

[Jolly Joker]

goddamnit .. Im sick of it.

Every time when fans complain about something in H5, either Nival or JJ appears and begin well known song "look H3 - has(had) same sh1t"
When ppl complained "where is mapeditor", Nival answered "h3 initialy had no mapeditor as well" But everyone who played H3 RoE knows that it was. Those who didnt play can read first reviews on H3. There IS a mentioning about mapeditor.

Now JJ goes again with "H3 cheats MASSIVELY".
But:
1) On "hard" AI starts with the same amount of resources as human. It is writen
2) About extra creatures growth. JJ, I ask you again, show me the source of your info. Because here I have a fresh screenie for you:
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2828 ... estdz1.jpg

Difficulty "IMPOSSIBLE"

In H 5 on hard the AI starts with the same amount as well: all parties start with the 20000 gold and so on amount. In H 3 we have TWO difficulty levels after that.
For that screenshot, I couldn't care less. What does that proof? Go ahead and take an AI town on day 1 and you'll see the extra production.
Go furthermore ahead and check for instance STARTING FORCES FOR AI HEROES in H 3 and you'll see some very interesting things there.
And, yes, I'm sick of it either.
To check things for H 3, do the following:
Start a map as single player. Save it on day 2. Reload it as hot-seat for so many players as factions. Cycle through the players and have a look at things.
To check for creature growth do the same, but save on day 1 of any week that already has fully built towns.

[Jolly Joker]

Phoenix Reborn - Campaigns are scripted....those battles are set, meaning you can't lose.

I beg your pardon? So when I had Isabel defending a castle in the necromancer campaign, and there was an objective not to lose her, it wasn't possible for me to lose her?

....Man these smarta** questions annoy me....you know the answer as good as I do! Ofcourse you CAN lose a battle but if you play your cards right you'll win!


Jolly Joker - Interesting. Didn't know that the Heroes III A.I cheated like that....
You don't happen to know if there was plans to include a cheatfree difficulty at one time or what reason Nival gave not to include one?

It's even handicapped on easy and normal. Afaik, making a cheatfree AI never was on the agenda, because it's - forgive me - no value in itself. In the end a "cheat" is something like a shortcut.

[Mytical]

All this is interesting, but here is a point about funds/skill. I am probably one of the worse MP people here. Given a 3 to 1 (pretty much) advantage over even the best player, however, chances are I am going to come out the victor. Now, if I was given cheaper creatures as well even a mere 10% and or bonus creatures, I doubt even the best could defeat me. Obviously it is not because of skill, but pure strength in numbers. So why does the AI need such drastic help to present a challenge. Just make it more agressive and it should be fine.

[MistWeaver]

In H 5 on hard the AI starts with the same amount as well: all parties start with the 20000 gold and so on amount. In H 3 we have TWO difficulty levels after that.

But didnt you just said:

Not only do you start out with very different starting amounts

?

It appears now that this is true only for 2 highest levels. So, please dont play with words JJ.

For that screenshot, I couldn't care less. What does that proof? Go ahead and take an AI town on day 1 and you'll see the extra production.

And you ask what that proof ? But didnt you just said:

the AI does get more creatures each week on higher difficulty

?
There were no extra production. I checked it.
That proofs that you use all of the ways you can to defend H5. Even low ways.

Go furthermore ahead and check for instance STARTING FORCES FOR AI HEROES in H 3 and you'll see some very interesting things there.
...
To check things for H 3, do the following:
Start a map as single player. Save it on day 2. Reload it as hot-seat for so many players as factions. Cycle through the players and have a look at things.
To check for creature growth do the same, but save on day 1 of any week that already has fully built towns.

I just did that. And I can put my saves here (and test maps) for all to see. (version SoD) AI doesnt get extra creatures. And heroes starting forces are the same (about 30-40 gremlins and ~4 garg for tower).

And, yes, I'm sick of it either.

Sick of your fake argument being exposed, or what ?

[Jolly Joker]

There is no 3-1 superiority because the amount of available creatures is limited. On any map starting with towns having level 1 the AI cannot build their level 7s in week 3.
So a Sylvan AI could at most go for lvl 1-3 in week one, level 4-6 in week 2 and level 7 in week 3. Furthermore it has to mix in Fort, Citadel and Castle, five mage guild dwellings and upgrades plus it can't afford NOT to build the money dwellings, so the building order is largely the same that you would follow when able to build every day which is not nearly that much of an advantage creature-wise.

[PhoenixReborn]

@ Mistweaver thanks but scripting isn't the specific issue here

@ Campaigner - the reason I answered like a smar @SS is because you tried to make the claim that my experience was invalid because of scripting in campaigns...and that I couldn't lose. I'm simply saying that while the scenarios are set up that particular attack was dangerous and I could have lost and had to start over...the combat a.i. gave me a challenge. So don't dimiss my experiences and I won't be mean.

[Jolly Joker]

I have to apologize here. I mistook Heroes III with Heroes II.

It's in Heroes TWO the AI gets 1 more creature for each level and AI heroes start with more creatures than the players. Sorry for that one.
I checked things over myself again, and it's Heroes II where we have that, not Heroes III. While it happens in Heroes III that you conquer a town which will have higher growth than usual, but this then is the result of the former owner of that town has outside dwellings flagged, which isn't possible in H II where this cheat was used.

You can find a description of what the AI in Heroes III does here in the Celestial Havens website.

[Mytical]

I agree that there is a limit to creatures, i was talking funds, not creatures. I know that funds are probably not 3 to 1 on heroic, but they should be (resources as well). That way no extra bonuses should be needed by the computer. Heck even starting them with upgraded (but same number) of creatures in the starting hero's army would be ok in my book. An agressive AI with these small benifits should be able to give anybody, regardless of skill, a fight for their money.

[okrane]

A propos de l'AI:

Just got rushed by the AI... nothing new so far.
Just that I played a 1v1 large map and the computer came attacking me in week 3 day 3 or so(in 17 days that is) with a horde of inquisitors and 2 archangels plus 100+ marksmen. I mean... WTF... I hardly had lvl 5s...
You can surely guess that I lost pathetically...

So my question is... Does the AI cheat too much?

I would propose that the advantages it gets should scale in function of the map, and number of players... and that the map developer could customize the advantages and other caracteristics of the AI...

PS: Mytical, Round Table Hero... nice

[MistWeaver]

A propos de l'AI:

Just got rushed by the AI... nothing new so far.
Just that I played a 1v1 large map and the computer came attacking me in week 3 day 3 or so(in 17 days that is) with a horde of inquisitors and 2 archangels plus 100+ marksmen. I mean... WTF... I hardly had lvl 5s...
You can surely guess that I lost pathetically...

So my question is... Does the AI cheat too much?

I would propose that the advantages it gets should scale in function of the map, and number of players... and that the map developer could customize the advantages and other caracteristics of the AI...

You are playing on Heroic, I can persume. And yes AI cheats that much. On heroic Ai needs to pay 3 times less for everithing. Its like if you started with 90000. So he can easily have all dwellings build on third week.

I can give advice for all who wants fun gaming experience in H5.
Do not play on Heroic. Play on hard but vs several allied opponents:
- Play single vs 2 or 3 AI players.
- If you want to play with your friend in alliance play vs 3 or 4 AI players.

[Alamar]

33, 50 and 66% cheaper stuff is definetly cheating.

Compared to free 10k its much better.

IMHO it's a wash either way.

A free 10K -> Total of about 14K / day with Capitol.

1/3 costs ~= 4K * 3 == 12K / day.

Personally I prefer the "free 10K / day" option because it's much easier for a map maker to decide to take away some of the flat 10K instead of having to figure how how much the AI makes then take away a fraction of that.

[Fortuna]

Thanks, guys. These are some helpful responses.

I don't really care if the computer cheats in certain ways. Almost all AIs do. I think of it as a simulation: "a better opponent would be able to do this, so we'll make the computer simulate a better opponent." There are some exceptions to this, though:

1) If the cheating helps the computer's production or intel, that's fine, but it better not give it special powers beyond that. For example, it's okay if the computer has more troops than I do, but not okay if identical troops have higher stats for him than they do for me.

2) If the cheating immediately accomplishes a big goal without giving me a chance to play strategically and thwart the computer along the way, that's bad. For instance, the computer cheating in Civilization II didn't bother me until I got in a space race once, and some civilization with a weaker manufacturing sector than I had began building twice as many space ship components per turn as I could. There was no way to make up for that with clever strategy. There was a short, straight line between the cheating and the winning.

3) If the computer's material advantage is so extreme that the only way to beat it is a) to play twenty times until the AI mysteriously leaves you alone long enough for you to get powerful, or b) to take advantage of a dozen exploits (or c--combine both of the above), then that's not fun anymore. But usually I can avoid this by avoiding the highest difficulty level; I just want the next highest to give me a challenge then.

The biggest problem I'm hearing so far is this phenomenon of the AI losing steam and becoming passive after the first five weeks.

[DaemianLucifer]

33, 50 and 66% cheaper stuff is definetly cheating.

Compared to free 10k its much better.

IMHO it's a wash either way.

A free 10K -> Total of about 14K / day with Capitol.

1/3 costs ~= 4K * 3 == 12K / day.

Personally I prefer the "free 10K / day" option because it's much easier for a map maker to decide to take away some of the flat 10K instead of having to figure how how much the AI makes then take away a fraction of that.

Ah,but without free gold when you capture gold mines and/or crucial cities you indeed hamper its ecenomy.With free money,theres no use for doing that.