Renegade units in Addon

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 04 Sep 2006, 13:20

Sauron wrote:Well, nekromancers are only fighting for power against the wizards. In fact, undead aren't evil. They don't have feelings. They do what is needed.

Indeed so.But those that control them,the necromancers,are pure evil in HV.Look at markal.A typical boring mad evil necromancer.

Akul · Unread postby **Akul** » 04 Sep 2006, 14:35

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Sauron wrote:Well, nekromancers are only fighting for power against the wizards. In fact, undead aren't evil. They don't have feelings. They do what is needed.
Indeed so.But those that control them,the necromancers,are pure evil in HV.Look at markal.A typical boring mad evil necromancer.

He is fighting for power. He does not wake and say: "Hmmmmm. Whom could I kill today for fun?". He wakes and says: "Hmmmmm. How could I become more powerful today?" All magicians are like that.

Meandor · Unread postby **Meandor** » 04 Sep 2006, 14:40

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Sauron wrote:Well, nekromancers are only fighting for power against the wizards. In fact, undead aren't evil. They don't have feelings. They do what is needed.
Indeed so.But those that control them,the necromancers,are pure evil in HV.Look at markal.A typical boring mad evil necromancer.

He isn`t evil, he is retarted.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 04 Sep 2006, 14:40

Sauron wrote: He is fighting for power. He does not wake and say: "Hmmmmm. Whom could I kill today for fun?". He wakes and says: "Hmmmmm. How could I become more powerful today?" All magicians are like that.

I remember another magician that fought for power:Dracon.But he wasnt evil,nor mad.Markal is just a stereotypical necromancer.Not a magician,but necromancer,damnit!Evil and mad!Mad as all of us are!!Mwahahahaha!!!

player1 · Unread postby **player1** » 04 Sep 2006, 14:44

Sauron wrote:He is fighting for power. He does not wake and say: "Hmmmmm. Whom could I kill today for fun?". He wakes and says: "Hmmmmm. How could I become more powerful today?" All magicians are like that.

Fighting for power, at expense of others (incluging reanimating corpses of enemies) is EVIL.

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 04 Sep 2006, 14:56

Have to agree with the necro=evil thing. It's not bad enough that they desire power (academy is not evil, they are neutral), they want your soul/body to serve them eternally as well. They don't care if you are an innocent peasant or a powerful wizard, they will feed on you and then defile your corpse.

That being said, evil and good are subjective. Take the Norse for instance. In there society raping, killing, and plundering would get you into there version of heaven. Ask any powerhungry mad despot if he is evil and he/she will emphatically say no, that they are doing what they are for the 'greater good'. Just the 2c worth of somebody west of sanity and east of madness.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 04 Sep 2006, 15:08

Mytical302 wrote:Have to agree with the necro=evil thing. It's not bad enough that they desire power (academy is not evil, they are neutral), they want your soul/body to serve them eternally as well. They don't care if you are an innocent peasant or a powerful wizard, they will feed on you and then defile your corpse.

Thats so untrue.I would never label Gauldoth as a stereotypical necromancer.I even played a good necro once.It is such an interesting concept.Too bad its not used more often.

Mytical302 wrote: That being said, evil and good are subjective. Take the Norse for instance. In there society raping, killing, and plundering would get you into there version of heaven. Ask any powerhungry mad despot if he is evil and he/she will emphatically say no, that they are doing what they are for the 'greater good'. Just the 2c worth of somebody west of sanity and east of madness.

I agree with that.There really is no true good and true evil.But its much easier to make evil demons and good knights in shining armour than to think of something original.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 04 Sep 2006, 15:14

Bah, you want a sense of ambiguity, check out Discipples. Sure there are both evil and good factions, but they all have real reasons to do what they do, and not just "to kill stuff".

player1 · Unread postby **player1** » 04 Sep 2006, 15:33

ThunderTitan wrote:Bah, you want a sense of ambiguity, check out Discipples. Sure there are both evil and good factions, but they all have real reasons to do what they do, and not just "to kill stuff".

Well they have reasons in Heroes5...
Demon Soverign want to accure demon messiah...
Merkal want to restore Necromantic order and gain power.
Issabel want to defend Griffin Empire from demons regardless of costs.
Elves want to defend their country from demons and undead.
Mages want to destroy undead and demon threat.

soupnazii · Unread postby **soupnazii** » 04 Sep 2006, 15:39

so basically, nobody has any reason to be fighting except the Demon Sovreign. if everybody stopped, everybody wold be happy, but not him, so hes the only one with a right to be fighting.

player1 · Unread postby **player1** » 04 Sep 2006, 15:59

You forgot Markal, he wants to restore Necomancer order.

sylvanllewelyn · Unread postby **sylvanllewelyn** » 04 Sep 2006, 16:14

Academy: gremlins, beastman and orcs as lower-level beings
Sylvan: imperialism and committing genocide (not just war) on their brethren.
Haven: strict theocracy and serfdom
Dungeons: cruel slavery and deadly treachery
Necropolis: defiling graves and recklessly forcing their world-view
Inferno: too reckless about trying to escape from their aweful condition

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 04 Sep 2006, 16:19

Yes, you could see it that way.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 04 Sep 2006, 21:36

player1 wrote: Well they have reasons in Heroes5...
Demon Soverign want to accure demon messiah...
Merkal want to restore Necromantic order and gain power.
Issabel want to defend Griffin Empire from demons regardless of costs.
Elves want to defend their country from demons and undead.
Mages want to destroy undead and demon threat.

I meant real reasons, not i'm evil and require power. Real people never think of themselves as evil.

That duality is present in Disciples in which Bethrezen basicaly got screwed badly by jealous angels and wants rather justified revenge and Mortis wants to ressurect her one true love. Does that make them evil?

In Ashan demons just want to destroy stuff (the DM is just a means to an end), and the undead/necros to kill everyone so they rule the world. Where is the grey area? The fact that the "good" guys are a-holes? Yeah, making the good guys bad make for a really mature and dark universe, along with using a high contrast setting.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 06:05

Good or evil is not decided over motives; it's the means that make the difference. You can want to rule the whole world alright. That's not evil. If you try it with war, it is - basically because you care a turd about the well-being of others and force them into something, they wouldn't really want. But if you try it "by the rules", it's not evil.
So motives don't play any role here.

asandir · Unread postby **asandir** » 05 Sep 2006, 06:09

well, motives can be evil as well as good .... there is no "good" way to rape a person for example, the means cannot justify the end

player1 · Unread postby **player1** » 05 Sep 2006, 06:28

ThunderTitan wrote: I meant real reasons, not i'm evil and require power. Real people never think of themselves as evil.

That duality is present in Disciples in which Bethrezen basicaly got screwed badly by jealous angels and wants rather justified revenge and Mortis wants to ressurect her one true love. Does that make them evil?

In Ashan demons just want to destroy stuff (the DM is just a means to an end), and the undead/necros to kill everyone so they rule the world. Where is the grey area? The fact that the "good" guys are a-holes? Yeah, making the good guys bad make for a really mature and dark universe, along with using a high contrast setting.

Well, I don't think Markal resons are bad.
We wowed revenge against Silver Cities and Zehir father, since they killed his mentor (Sandro) and destroyed Necromantic order.
And he doesn't really thinks of him as evil. More like "practical" and power hungry.

As for Demon Soverign, he has his reasons too. The revelation of old prophecy and demon messiah. Also, the Griffin and Falcon houses where their old enemies for generations. I mean hundreads and hundreads of years he, as well as his predecessors, tried to take them down

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 07:54

Motives - purposes - have no relevance whatsoever in deciding whether something is good or evil. The action is important. Your purpose can be the best in the world, if the means are evil to go for it, the purpose gets spoiled by it.

asandir · Unread postby **asandir** » 05 Sep 2006, 07:58

let me repeat

well, motives can be evil as well as good .... there is no "good" way to rape a person for example, the means cannot justify the end

if my motive is to rape someone, then it is evil .... there is no action you can take to make it "good"

i agree that if the motive is pure, the action can still seed evil consequences

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 05 Sep 2006, 08:06

Well, no, what's working in one direction is working in the other as well. You can have the purpose to rape someone as often as you want - as long as you actually don't do it, everything is fine.
This is because purposes are completely irrelevant in determining whether something is good or evil or inconsequential or whatever. Purposes are cheap - it's only the action that counts. I mean, who is more evil, a guy who has the purpose to kill the whole world - but doesn't get around to even start with it for whatever the reason, or a guy who wants to purge the evil from the face of this world - and starts a real genocide about it?

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