Too many non-retaliation units?

[Wolfshanze]

With the possible exception of the Necromancer, I can't think of any other town that relies so heavily on ONE unit to get the job done. Everything in Inferno screams "use the Succubi". Every other unit seems to be a support unit for the Succubi (except the Demon which seems to be comic-relief).

Kinda sad actually... at least the Necro has a reason for relying on one unit... the Inferno town HAS to use the Succubi or die.

[csarmi]

...for a simple man like myself, I've played through the first four campaigns already, including the ENTIRE Inferno campaign...

...The simple fact is, the Inferno town is widely regarded as the weakest town. That's just a FACT...

Campaigns don't mean a thing.
For the second part:

The simple fact is, that Wimfrits (os Gaidal Cain) are widely regarded as people who actually know what they are talking about. They have a much better judgement on what works and why. Maybe because of the maps they made.

They are also known to only speak, when they have an idea.
That's just a FACT...

[Vision]

I can (and will) play without succubus and still own people who claim that inferno is weak and relies on that creature. Sure, having that chain attack is damn good, one of the best specialties in the game, but still, it is NOT the be all end all of Inferno. Personally, I much prefer to use Pit Lords, and I will always have them by week 2 - day 2 if town level 4 start, a day later for each level lower. And by the end of week 2, I will have a capitol as well, and probably devils. Sure, this guarantees that I will have succubus, but if I had to build hell hounds or nightmares instead, I would.

And yes, I said Pit Lords, not fiends.

[wimfrits]

Imps - cerberi - pit lords - devils for me.

I also don't think succubi are vital for Inferno. Succubi are costly, slow in battle, don't do all that much damage and investing in them comes at a crucial point, where not investing them gets you to higher level units a lot faster.
I suspect that the people claiming that succubi are vital may be relying on ranged tactics a lot to win their battles. A H3 legacy.

[Wolfshanze]

I suspect that the people claiming that succubi are vital may be relying on ranged tactics a lot to win their battles. A H3 legacy.

Which still amazingly works exceedingly well and easy to this day...

Referance Inferno, Sylvan, Necro to say the very least.

Are you trying to infer that if it's there, it's easy, and it works, you should deliberately make it harder on yourself by trying to win in a more difficult way and that makes you smarter?

I'm sure I could win with the Sylvans without Hunters or Druids, but why get rid of the best, easiest troops to win with? Inferno is no differant with Succubi.

[wimfrits]

Are you trying to infer that if it's there, it's easy, and it works, you should deliberately make it harder on yourself by trying to win in a more difficult way and that makes you smarter?

Well, not exactly.
What I'm trying to say is that:
If it's there, it's easy, and it works, it's not necessarily the most efficient way
It might be more difficult but also more efficient to use other tactics.

But because ppl are used to using a ranged tactic to good effect, they might tend to stick to this more easy but less efficient way instead of learning other tactics.

Not saying that this goes for other factions; but I think this does apply to Inferno.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I suspect that the people claiming that succubi are vital may be relying on ranged tactics a lot to win their battles. A H3 legacy.

Which still amazingly works exceedingly well and easy to this day...

Referance Inferno, Sylvan, Necro to say the very least.

Are you trying to infer that if it's there, it's easy, and it works, you should deliberately make it harder on yourself by trying to win in a more difficult way and that makes you smarter?

No, what he's saying is that if you only rely on a strategy that is easy for SOME towns, then other towns may SEEM to be harder.
If range-striking is easy, and you focus on that only, then obviously a town with only one ranged unit (inferno) will not play as well. However, if you consider other strategies, you may find that a "focus on range" strategy is NOT the best way to play such factions.

Succubi, while useful, are NOT the backbone of an inferno army. I found that cerberi and nightmares did 90% of the fighting for me. In the first round, they would both gate in creatures next to the enemy shooters (so they would only get 1 action at best). The gated units would absorb retaliations while the real ones could pound with impunity.
Succubi and pit fiends/lords could choose strategic targets (and often the PL's would use the debilitating spells, not the damage ones!), or if that wasn't needed or critical, they would gate in as well. The imps would also gate in creatures to block, and with their high initiative, often they could go twice before an enemy shooter.
Demons, I agree, did very little. Often by the time they got to act, the battle was almost over, and with the other gated troops pinning the enemy on the far side of the field, their best action was to gate and hope the gates forces might get to act.
I never paid much attention to the devils, interestingly enough. I'm not saying they were bad, just that they generally were on cleanup duty.

This all ignores the hero (except for having expert gating, which any decent inferno hero should have).

[Wolfshanze]

Well it's not like if I play Inferno I only use Succubi, never buy other units and/or never move them into combat.

I use whatever units I have at my disposal, and I try to use each unit in the best way possible to inflict maximum damage while trying to preserve my own forces (what good is it to win if you suffer horrendous casualties every time, when it may be possible to win and suffer fewer casualties).

Also, of course, EVERYONE is going to use their hero as best as possible.

What I've been saying... at least from my experience with Inferno, the Succubi is the best unit (for it's level) in the Inferno army. I use Cerberus and Nightmares (Imps, Demons and Devils)... I'm just saying that AT THE END OF THE DAY... it seems the Succubi are the saviors of the Inferno faction... not the Nightmares, Cerberus or any other critter (and certainly not the Demon which seems to move once in every battle no matter how many turns you play... at least it SEEMS that way).

I really do like the Cerberus... probalby my 2nd favorite critter in the Inferno army... but dang, it's got a glass jaw... they take horrible casualties.

[Shhejtan]

Every strike is no retalitation strike, unles there is a succubus being stricken.
Seriously. Try playing some Heroes IV before you play Heroes V. When you turn Heroes V on you'll feel like somebody made a constant mass first strike mod, that is if you play well (not hard to do, game's easy to boot)

[Wolfshanze]

Every strike is no retalitation strike, unles there is a succubus being stricken.
Seriously. Try playing some Heroes IV before you play Heroes V. When you turn Heroes V on you'll feel like somebody made a constant mass first strike mod, that is if you play well (not hard to do, game's easy to boot)

That was the original theme of this thread... and yeah... it FEELS that way to me in this game! May not be the case, but I get the feeling it is like that.

Perhaps it's not the NUMBER of no-retaliation units, so much as the INITIATIVE SYSTEM which allows more critters to get hit in a single round then in previous games before they get their ONE retaliation strike back.

[Shhejtan]

As long as you have enough troops the retaliation, if any, won't matter.

Without simultaneous retaliation, ranged retaliation, line of sight and with luck sporadicaly increasing the damage (classic but silly and unpredictable) whoever hits first has no retaliation if he hits hard enough. After evading being hit all the time in heroes IV, you get so good at it that combat in Heroes V requires next to no thinking at all.

Archers rule is you have initiative - they'll wack anything anywhere!

And teleport assault is just sick - you can either make your archers shoot twice in a row (ussualy that's two stacks less for your opponent, or more if it's the succubus you are teporting), or you can strike with any unit anywhere and evade being hit back by simply killing all enemy troops in one blow.

Heroes IV just required so much more strategy. Heroes V is more like a wild west shootout