Renagades as Alternate Upgrades?

[Jolly Joker]

I can't believe this discussion is still on.
I don't see the slightest reason to bring in human ideas of holiness or anything else here.
But IF you do, we had the HOLY inquisition in the name of god and christ. That doesn't look too different from having Fallen Angels in the name of Elrath. So what?

[Omega_Destroyer]

If Nival decides that renegades are to be the alternate upgrade and they are reduced in power (as they must be since they are overpowered now) there needs to be a hefty morale penalty for mixing renegades with regular haven troops in order to maintain a pretention of consistency and believability. I do hope though that they introduce totally new troops for the alternatives though.

So my entire army of normal upgraded Haven troops should suffer bcecause I chose crossbowmen instead of marksmen? Don't remember reading anything about how them being bloodthirsty. Morale should drop because units chose superior technology? And if you want to talk about morale taking a hit, then the first thing Nival should do is strip the Minotaurs of their morale bonuses because slaves aren't going to be happy to go die for their masters, regardless of how "brave" they are.

[Wolfsburg]

One interesting and effective way of monitoring fans opinions is a POLL.

How many percent would say the coexistence of the fallen and the righteous is unacceptable?

How many would say it doesnt matter as long as the units are available for combat?

How many would say it is coherent and plausible?

How many dont give a f***?

Its a quick way to see the acceptance of this idea without further discussion, since the debate has pratically exausted all argument possibilities (It was a good debate though)...

[ThunderTitan]

How many percent would say the coexistence of the fallen and the righteous is unacceptable?

Well there's Bin Laden and his friends, plenty of middle-agers and i hear there are a lot of americans who buy Left Behind books.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

If Nival decides that renegades are to be the alternate upgrade and they are reduced in power (as they must be since they are overpowered now) there needs to be a hefty morale penalty for mixing renegades with regular haven troops in order to maintain a pretention of consistency and believability. I do hope though that they introduce totally new troops for the alternatives though.

So my entire army of normal upgraded Haven troops should suffer bcecause I chose crossbowman instead of marksman?

Yep because the renegade troops are opposed to the original Haven troops and no longer worship the Dragon of Light. Fighting side by side by somebody who is opposed to you and everything you stand for would tend to lower your morale.

GOW

[okrane]

Well, I don't get the fuss here people.

What if we rename all creatures. We don't call them renegades anymore, but instead... fanatics... or I don't know.

Same abilities, same skins, just a different name and story. What would that change... some .txt files? I mean, the game play related to the new abilities is much more important than some storyline.
If you want to make a custom map including those, change their names and their history, and there's no problem. But programming a moral penalty just because you think it's just .... I find really really bizarre...

[watcher83]

the fallen angel won't be overpowered if its stats will be slightly decreased, and also it's next to useless against undead.

[King Imp]

the fallen angel won't be overpowered if its stats will be slightly decreased, and also it's next to useless against undead.

Yeah, after I got done singing the praises of the Fallen Angel and how much better he is than the Archangel, I fought them with my Necro army. The Fallen Angels were pretty much worthless against them.

Still, overall I say they are better than the Archangel and need to be tweaked a bit. Otherwise, it's pretty much a no brainer who you choose, if in fact they are the alternate upgrade.

[watcher83]

a 29 att, 27 def and a 25 - 60 damage should do

[King Imp]

I don't think it's so much the stats that are the problem. It's the Life Drain ability. Having it work on every attack (against everyone but creatures without life) is what makes them so dangerous. It's hard to kill them when they keep bringing back their life on each swing of their sword.

[watcher83]

yes, but lower stats will make the life drain not so powerfull becuase of the lower damage resulting in only 1/2 of a not so high dam as before

if not, then let them have the same stats and replace life drain with no enemy retaliation, fright aura and enraged.

in response to Apocalypse - turning away from your patron god is the same thing whether it's Malassa or Elrath; oh and dark elves are not evil.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

a 29 att, 27 def and a 25 - 60 damage should do

I don't think that would be enough really. If they do become the alternative upgrade they will need far lower hitpoints and attributes than the other level 7s because they can destroy the lower level stacks to be instantly at full strength.

GOW

[Omega_Destroyer]

I say leave the stats where they are and just jack up the price. Maybe 4/5 Crystal and 5000 gold.

[Corribus]

Ok, I'm not Catholic and won't comment on whatever views someone might have of the Catholic Church or what someone might have done in the name of Catholicism that was not according to Catholic dogma and this discussion does not need to go into religion bashing.

I'm not bashing Catholicism. I'm saying that, in a time long ago, there were factions in the Catholic Church that acted quite the contrary to what you would think of as "Holy". I doubt anyone today, even the Pope himself, would say, "Yeah, that whole Inquisition thing, that wasn't so bad." Just because you slap Holy on something, doesn't mean everyone who's a member of it is a good person. Like the Catholic Church and Muslim Caliphates using God as an excuse to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades, I can certainly envision higher-ups in the "Holy Griffin Empire" using the "Dragon of Light" for their own nefarious ends. Actually, I'm quite glad to see some factions in HoMM which have "good" and "evil" counterparts. I wish more factions would do this, so as to make the game more flexible for mapmakers.

The fact is not only does Nival say the Griffin Empire is holy ("The Holy Griffin Empire") but certain units are undeniably holy. The priests are priests of the Dragon of light. The paladins are holy warriors of the Dragon of Light. The angels are incarnations of the Dragon of Light. They are in fact holy.

The Holy Roman Empire had "Holy" in its name, and there were priests and bishops in it that were undeniably holy, but I'm sure if I did about 10 minute's research I could come up with some people in the Holy Roman Empire who acted quite opposite to the supposed tenets of the Catholic Church. Frankly I think the idea of a "Holy Griffin Empire" in which everyone is holy and there are no malcontents is, well, boring.

But then again, I don't really care about consistency that much. The mapmaker will make it consistent.

[Wolfsburg]

POLL!

[ThunderTitan]

I'm quite glad to see some factions in HoMM which have "good" and "evil" counterparts.

There's nothing like color coding to separate the good from the bad... and the ugly.

[Elvin]

Unless you believe those who wear black and red to be inherently evil

[Apocalypse]

Try playing with that unit and you will see. They are very powerful in combat.

Oh yeah, so a unit who deals 10000 damage is cool, right?

Come on, I did not say cool as in strong, but in how fun is to play with it... since those abilities are NOT original and new (Life Drain is Vampire's, etc) I don't find those units (renegades; especially those without any new abilities) awesome...

[watcher83]

The fallen angel deals lower dam than the archangel most of the times(not 10000), his ability makes him overpowered, but lowering his damage and attack a bit will balance it.... or as someone else suggested leave it like that and make it very expensive (e.g. 6000gold + 3crystals)

[Elvin]

Oh come on! Different costs can't balance the game properly.