What DnD alignment do you think each hero is?

The old Heroes games developed by New World Computing. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 03 Mar 2007, 20:07

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: However, he also places a fair amount of emphasis upon certain traditions, such as the tradition of hereditary kingship, hence why he calls himself lord and not king.

However, he also shows a fair bit of disregard for the very real possibility that Sir Worton might well be a Gryphonheart.

His whole quest is about proving that Worton isn't a Gryphonheart, a chaotic char wouldn't really care about that.
See, Lawful shouldn't be about blindly following tradition to the letter but about respecting it, something that wouldn't been done if he just allowed a fake on the throne.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 03 Mar 2007, 22:44

His whole quest is about proving that Worton isn't a Gryphonheart, a chaotic char wouldn't really care about that.
See, Lawful shouldn't be about blindly following tradition to the letter but about respecting it, something that wouldn't been done if he just allowed a fake on the throne.
We all know now that Sir Worton is a fake, but there was no way for Lysander to know at the time.

The whole thing, is while in fact most of Palaedra were swayed by Sir Worton, Lysander decided for himself that Sir Worton was wrong, based on little more than a hunch, and went on an epic journey to prove this to be the case.

The fact he disregards completely Sir Worton's claim, until he has 100% proof that he is a Gryphenheart, suggests Chaotic alignment, as does his other actions.

A Lawful Good character, would probably hand over the throne to Sir Worton, beacause he would recognise that none can pull the Gryphenheart blade except a Gryphenheart.

The whole problem is what exactly is a chaotic good ruler like? I thought, well Lysander behaves in a very independant way, paying little heed for tradition and following his own judgement, thus it is likely that Lysander is a Chaotic Good ruler.
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 04 Mar 2007, 07:59

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The whole thing, is while in fact most of Palaedra were swayed by Sir Worton, Lysander decided for himself that Sir Worton was wrong, based on little more than a hunch, and went on an epic journey to prove this to be the case.
You're confusing "lawfulness" with "gulllibility". Being lawful doesn't mean that you need to take things at face value. The key question is what Lysander would have done if it turned out that Worton was indeed a Gryphonheart, not whether he suspected that he wasn't and set out to prove his hunch correct.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 04 Mar 2007, 12:49

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: A Lawful Good character, would probably hand over the throne to Sir Worton, because he would recognize that none can pull the Gryphonheart blade except a Gryphonheart.
IMO a Chaotic Good char would have just punched Worton in the face, taken the blade from him and try to see if he can pull it out of the scabbard. Unless he felt this was a pretty good reason to go on a little quest he felt like taking on for a while.

Like i said, you might argue Neutral Good, his respecting some traditions being a result of considering them good. Definitely not Chaotic.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 04 Mar 2007, 20:01

You're confusing "lawfulness" with "gulllibility". Being lawful doesn't mean that you need to take things at face value. The key question is what Lysander would have done if it turned out that Worton was indeed a Gryphonheart, not whether he suspected that he wasn't and set out to prove his hunch correct.
That's rather similar to what happened with Emilia snubbing the Immortal King's offer to take over the reigns of power AND marry her.

By the time that Lysander found out how evil Sir Worton was, he already knew the truth. Early on, he had know real way of knowing.
IMO a Chaotic Good char would have just punched Worton in the face, taken the blade from him and try to see if he can pull it out of the scabbard. Unless he felt this was a pretty good reason to go on a little quest he felt like taking on for a while.

Like i said, you might argue Neutral Good, his respecting some traditions being a result of considering them good. Definitely not Chaotic.
The problem is that what would a chaotic good ruler, actually be like?
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 04 Mar 2007, 21:29

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:By the time that Lysander found out how evil Sir Worton was, he already knew the truth. Early on, he had know real way of knowing.
And? He suspected that Worton wasn't a Gryphonheart. His whole search was for proof that he wasn't- not proof that he was evil, or a bad ruler, or anything like that that a neutral or chaotic good character would have deemed enough to overthrow him.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 04 Mar 2007, 22:58

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
IMO a Chaotic Good char would have just punched Worton in the face, taken the blade from him and try to see if he can pull it out of the scabbard. Unless he felt this was a pretty good reason to go on a little quest he felt like taking on for a while.
The problem is that what would a chaotic good ruler, actually be like?
That depends on how he thinks. I already told you what someone that thinks like me would have done (that's why i kept it in there).
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 05 Mar 2007, 14:46

And? He suspected that Worton wasn't a Gryphonheart. His whole search was for proof that he wasn't- not proof that he was evil, or a bad ruler, or anything like that that a neutral or chaotic good character would have deemed enough to overthrow him.
Actually the bigger motivation was a pragmatic realisation that he had to prove that Worton was a fraud, in order to mantain the support of his people and silence the rebellious nobles.
That depends on how he thinks. I already told you what someone that thinks like me would have done (that's why i kept it in there).
However, you also have to consider the pragmatic consideration too. Punching Sir Worton in the face might be tempting, but it wouldn't really be pragmatic.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 05 Mar 2007, 15:12

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: However, you also have to consider the pragmatic consideration too. Punching Sir Worton in the face might be tempting, but it wouldn't really be pragmatic.
Well punching was a bit of an exaggeration by me, but the point of getting him to let someone else test the sword remains, no matter how it's achieved.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 05 Mar 2007, 17:04

Well punching was a bit of an exaggeration by me, but the point of getting him to let someone else test the sword remains, no matter how it's achieved.
The point is, Lysander seems to mostly have been pragmatic in his concern about the truth about Sir Worton claim.

He automaticly challenges authority, in this case by challenging the truth of that authorities claim to lead, without actually having much evidential basis for this claim.

The whole Life Campaign, is based around Lysanders search for actual evidence for what was originally just a hunch, in order to stop the lack evidence undermining his authority and allowing Sir Worton to take over.

A Lawful Good character, would likely be more likely not to question Sir Worton's claim to be a Gryphenheart beacause, since well only a Gryphenheart can draw the blade. The initial evidence, supports the claim, initially challenging that evidence, is a pretty chaotic thing to do.

The immediate hunch that the one calling upon tradition to oppose him, is lying, is in a sense a chaotic action, beacause he challenges the validity of the tradition first, and then he finds the evidence slowly.

A Lawful Good character, would likely hand over power, but would turn against Sir Worton if someone came up with evidence that he wasn't what he said he was.

In short, Lysander is Chaotic Good, but aware of the fact he needs Lawful people, to be on his side.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 05 Mar 2007, 20:32

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: A Lawful Good character, would likely hand over power, but would turn against Sir Worton if someone came up with evidence that he wasn't what he said he was.
So lawful characters are idiots that take everything at face value?! A Chaotic character would have more likely just challenged Worton from the beginning, and would have looked for evidence later. He already had half the nobles on his side, the lawful ppl could have been convinced of the truth after he had the fake sword tested.

The immediate hunch that the one calling upon tradition to oppose him, is lying, is in a sense a chaotic action, because he challenges the validity of the tradition first, and then he finds the evidence slowly.
If he had challenged the tradition we would have gone after Worton first. Remember that it was Worton that started the fight while Lysander was trying to figure out what to do. He chose to rather respect the tradition and see if Worton was telling the truth before attacking him then to just defeat him and see if he was truthful afterwards.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 05 Mar 2007, 21:30

So lawful characters are idiots that take everything at face value?! A Chaotic character would have more likely just challenged Worton from the beginning, and would have looked for evidence later. He already had half the nobles on his side, the lawful ppl could have been convinced of the truth after he had the fake sword tested.
How would he test the fake sword? Lysander understood that if he moved against the nobles supporting Worton without proof, he would lose power. He needed the proof before he could move against Worton, otherwhise this would just be an excuse for the nobles to overthrow him, and even if he killed Worton, he would probably become a martyr.
If he had challenged the tradition we would have gone after Worton first. Remember that it was Worton that started the fight while Lysander was trying to figure out what to do. He chose to rather respect the tradition and see if Worton was telling the truth before attacking him then to just defeat him and see if he was truthful afterwards.
Ummm, no Lysander already knew what the truth was, beacause he had located and got the aid of Lady Desette and Sir Kentaine, who came along with the True Gryphenheart Sword.

That Worton had lied was not in doubt, Lysander just wanted to finish it in a way that would give him the opportunity to spare Sir Wortons life, so that Kentaine and Desette would not lose another son.

So he went off to face Worton alone.

This is pretty chaotic, beacause a lawful character would likely want to impose the death penalty on Sir Worton for treachery. He was scared that someone he sent off, would do just that.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 05 Mar 2007, 21:49

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: How would he test the fake sword? Lysander understood that if he moved against the nobles supporting Worton without proof, he would lose power.
They had taken most of the kingdom while he was away, he was already losing power.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: This is pretty chaotic, because a lawful character would likely want to impose the death penalty on Sir Worton for treachery. He was scared that someone he sent off, would do just that.
No, that sounds Neutral to me. Doing what good regardless of what made him feel better.


And i was talking about going after Worton before going on the quest, civil war style. He didn't need to prove to everyone that Worton wasn't 4 real, he still had support from the less greedy nobles, but he felt obliged to, that's why Lawful works. Chaotic is too much, you make a better case for Neutral.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Mar 2007, 11:17

They had taken most of the kingdom while he was away, he was already losing power.
And he regained power again, as a result of proving Sir Worton wasn't a gryphenheart.

He needed to know the truth, he couldn't have just crushed the nobility, beacause the nobility basically owned the place, in every respect. Without proof, he couldn't protect his position, unless he was prepared to go to extreme, and probably evil lengths.


No, that sounds Neutral to me. Doing what good regardless of what made him feel better.
And i was talking about going after Worton before going on the quest, civil war style. He didn't need to prove to everyone that Worton wasn't 4 real, he still had support from the less greedy nobles, but he felt obliged to, that's why Lawful works. Chaotic is too much, you make a better case for Neutral.
He couldn't have done this, beacause he wouldn't have a way to prove that Sir Worton was a fraud, indeed him going after him would prove the exact opposite to the people of Paleadra.

Secondly, to start a civil war and then win it by means brutal enough to 'get over' the Sir Worton problem, would be a distinctly evil thing to do.

He needed to prove once and for all, that Sir Worton was a fraud, before he could move against the nobles.

In order to win on the battlefield, he had to first prove that Sir Worton was lying. This was not clear to start off with, the balance of evidence went the other way.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 Mar 2007, 14:00

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: And he regained power again, as a result of proving Sir Worton wasn't a gryphenheart.

He needed to know the truth, he couldn't have just crushed the nobility, because the nobility basically owned the place, in every respect. Without proof, he couldn't protect his position, unless he was prepared to go to extreme, and probably evil lengths.

No, that sounds Neutral to me. Doing what good regardless of what made him feel better.
Not all the nobility sided with Worton. A civil war would be better, considering what Worton was doing, then letting him rule regardless of tradition. The fact that he decided he needed to prove his claim false from the get go shows at least some need to obey tradition. As does the fact that he didn't assume the title of king until he was proven to be a Gryphonheart.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: Secondly, to start a civil war and then win it by means brutal enough to 'get over' the Sir Worton problem, would be a distinctly evil thing to do.

Why? Wouldn't letting some rather evil upstart take over the kingdom be worse?
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Mar 2007, 15:11

Not all the nobility sided with Worton. A civil war would be better, considering what Worton was doing, then letting him rule regardless of tradition. The fact that he decided he needed to prove his claim false from the get go shows at least some need to obey tradition. As does the fact that he didn't assume the title of king until he was proven to be a Gryphonheart.
No, the fact he needed to prove the claim false, suggests he cares about the truth, which is a good trait, rather than necceserily a lawful one.

The not assuming of the title of king, may suggest a more lawful alignment, although it might simply suggest that Lysander is in a sense trying to be humble.
Why? Wouldn't letting some rather evil upstart take over the kingdom be worse?
Firstly nobody knows that Sir Worton is evil, yet.

Secondly, Lysander was trying to avoid having to fight a civil war, by proving Sir Worton a liar.

Obviously he was trying to avoid a civil war, beacause he was a good character. He would naturally try to get the fewest people hurt.

Starting a civil war, would get lots more people killed. Thus disproving Sir Worton, would be the good, rather than lawful way of dealing with him.

Killing Sir Worton would be the evil way to deal with it.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 Mar 2007, 19:15

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: No, the fact he needed to prove the claim false, suggests he cares about the truth, which is a good trait, rather than necceserily a lawful one.

The not assuming of the title of king, may suggest a more lawful alignment, although it might simply suggest that Lysander is in a sense trying to be humble.
Well the DnD alignments aren't exactly good enough to include all the nuances of someone's psychology.

Firstly nobody knows that Sir Worton is evil, yet.


If he isn't (doesn't seem to be) then why try and stop him at all?

Killing Sir Worton would be the evil way to deal with it.
Defeating him doesn't need to imply death, nor does killing = evil.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Mar 2007, 20:10

Well the DnD alignments aren't exactly good enough to include all the nuances of someone's psychology.
That being the problem of applying it the Heroes.
If he isn't (doesn't seem to be) then why try and stop him at all?
Well, Lysander was asked that apparantly. He basically said it was a bit, conveniant.
Defeating him doesn't need to imply death, nor does killing = evil.
But civil war does imply a large amount of death and killing.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 06 Mar 2007, 20:22

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: But civil war does imply a large amount of death and killing.
Which occurred anyway during the quest including the final fight with Worton.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Mar 2007, 21:57

Which occurred anyway during the quest including the final fight with Worton.
Yes, but that was beacause Lysander took too much time. He'd intended to find the evidence and come back before the civil war happened, but he underestimated Worton.

I think finding his mother, forced him to move fast, the takeover seems to have happened around the time when Lysander went off to fight Mastero, who held Worton's father Sir Kentaine.

Sir Worton sent his own minions to defeat Lysander and stop him from releasing his father.

Why Mastero didn't just ransom his father to Worton, for a large amount of gold and probably land aswell, I do not know.

The path of least resistance, hmmmmm.
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