Lightning bolt vs eldritch arrow

[DaemianLucifer]

1) Leadership skill for Necro; I think that giving the opposition a minus in morale would be too strong. My suggestion would be something like: Basic Leadership: +1 Init for Zombies, Ghosts and Vampires; Advanced: +1 Init for Skeletons and Liches; plus one Speed for Zombies; Expert: +1 Init for Wraiths and Dragons, plus one speed for Ghosts and Vampires. Something like that. It would be the logical thing to do for something like Leadership. It could give any other bonus as well. Important is, it SHOULD GIVE a bonus, no matter how small.

Yup,leadership giving speed/initiative to necro would be quite a fair addition.

2) Enlightenment is not only working in a silly way, arithmetically (if it was a percentage skill, giving something for each 4,3,2 levels would be like 15%, 20%, 30% which is not good), it's too good as well, especially when compared with some of the abilities, so I would suggest something like one additional skill point every 7,5 (4),3 levels while Arcane Exaltation and Wizard's Rewarf should give THREE points instead of two.

Could you clarify this a bit?You mentioned only the skill point bonuses,but first you say they need a boost,then a penalty?

3) There is a way missing to sell artifacts. This could be a map object, it could be a function of the market place and lastly artifacts might be sold in the Inferno's and Dungeon's special dwellings for experience/growth boosts.

Yes,selling artifacts is very needed,especially with all those clovers.

4) Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld. I've already sommented on that, but imo you can't have a game feature, where you struggle to produce the rare beast of a Dark Knight - only to get a level 5 spell that will first and foremost hurt your own troops. THAT is what I would call a design flaw (and it's not the only one with those two spells).

This is actually the part I wanted to comment on most.Ill just say two letters here: IM

5) I would like to see "backward ability additions". With the addons we see new abilities and I would not only like to see the expansion races have old abilities, I would also like the old races getting some of the new ones (where applicable).

Yes,more info is always a good thing,not just here,but everywhere.Giving you info when you right click on the terrain would also be appreceated.

[Jolly Joker]

1) Leadership skill for Necro; I think that giving the opposition a minus in morale would be too strong. My suggestion would be something like: Basic Leadership: +1 Init for Zombies, Ghosts and Vampires; Advanced: +1 Init for Skeletons and Liches; plus one Speed for Zombies; Expert: +1 Init for Wraiths and Dragons, plus one speed for Ghosts and Vampires. Something like that. It would be the logical thing to do for something like Leadership. It could give any other bonus as well. Important is, it SHOULD GIVE a bonus, no matter how small.

Yup,leadership giving speed/initiative to necro would be quite a fair addition.

I would even suggest something like Init + 5/10/15%, but I don't know how "exact" the ATB bar works (does it compute fractions? If so, it would be okay).

2) Enlightenment is not only working in a silly way, arithmetically (if it was a percentage skill, giving something for each 4,3,2 levels would be like 15%, 20%, 30% which is not good), it's too good as well, especially when compared with some of the abilities, so I would suggest something like one additional skill point every 7,5 (4),3 levels while Arcane Exaltation and Wizard's Rewarf should give THREE points instead of two.

Could you clarify this a bit?You mentioned only the skill point bonuses,but first you say they need a boost,then a penalty?

Currently the skills gives a point each 4th/3rd/2nd level. If you transfer this arithmetically, you'll get 3/4/6 points gain for each 12 levels the hero makes (aside of the experience bonus). Translated into a percentage this would be like defense would give 15/20/30% which is crap. (That has the consequence that basic Enlightenment is probably the best level gain you can get at the moment while advanced is crappy.) Moreover, I think that getting an additional skill point for every two levels is a bit too much, especially when compared with the two mentioned skills.
So I have actually TWO complaints about the skills. The first is, that even if it was okay it wasn't arithmetically (it should be each SIXTH/3rd/2nd level). The second is that I think it's too good and should be something like 7th/5th/3rd level for the skill, but +3 points for the two mentioned abilities.

4) Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld. I've already sommented on that, but imo you can't have a game feature, where you struggle to produce the rare beast of a Dark Knight - only to get a level 5 spell that will first and foremost hurt your own troops. THAT is what I would call a design flaw (and it's not the only one with those two spells).

This is actually the part I wanted to comment on most.Ill just say two letters here: IM .

I see what you are getting at, but I think there's a big difference. IM will be of use in general, but will have negative side-effects in certain cases for the caster, but will always be AT LEAST just as negative for the opponent, no matter what.
This is pretty different. You play Castle against Dungeon, develop a dark knight - and can't use your best spell (but imagine you'd get PM!).

[Jolly Joker]

@Mytical
Yes. Even in the time of the beta test I suggested two different difficulty levels, one for money and resources and another for neutral creature amount so that you would be able to play with sparse money against normal creature levels and vice versa.
It didn't materialize.
For me hard difficulty is probably the optimum diff. I don't need to play on heroic to prove I can beat the game no matter what, so I'm satisfied that there is a diff level that suits me fine.
I acknowledge, though, that other people may have other preferences and may have a problem finding the right level.
For spells, for me this is a very complex issue. Too compley to deal with it here with a few words.

[DaemianLucifer]

I would even suggest something like Init + 5/10/15%, but I don't know how "exact" the ATB bar works (does it compute fractions? If so, it would be okay).

I think it does count the fractions,even though it doesnt show them.

Currently the skills gives a point each 4th/3rd/2nd level. If you transfer this arithmetically, you'll get 3/4/6 points gain for each 12 levels the hero makes (aside of the experience bonus). Translated into a percentage this would be like defense would give 15/20/30% which is crap. (That has the consequence that basic Enlightenment is probably the best level gain you can get at the moment while advanced is crappy.) Moreover, I think that getting an additional skill point for every two levels is a bit too much, especially when compared with the two mentioned skills.
So I have actually TWO complaints about the skills. The first is, that even if it was okay it wasn't arithmetically (it should be each SIXTH/3rd/2nd level). The second is that I think it's too good and should be something like 7th/5th/3rd level for the skill, but +3 points for the two mentioned abilities.

Ah,I see.But enlightment gives you experience boost as well.But yes,I think 7/5/3 would be a good change.

[Alamar]

Thank you for pointing out things that you would like to see changed in HoMM5 JJ.

Of course the very first thing that you point out is exactly opposite of what I'd suggest. We're apparently born to disagree

For Necros and Leadership I'd either:

1. Make sure Necros can't get the skill. This means that perks may have to be totally redesigned / balanced / etc.

OR

2. Necros [IMHO] are the anti-life faction. They easily get perks that can lower luck [dead luck] and morale [banshee howl]. The logical extension OF MY THEORY [not anyone else's] would be to have both Leadership and Luck gained by a Necro hero to be used to decrease the Morale and Luck of the other side.

The last thing that I would like to see is for the Necro army to get a positive bonus from Leadership. The faction has never had it and I would rather it never get it. This faction is about debuffing the other armies historically so I think my proposal(s) fit much more with the faction feel & history than anything else that I've seen

EDIT: For artifacts that give a bonus to morale [that a Necro couldn't use] just give all Necros a special ability "Taint of Corruption". Allow this to change any artifact that gives a bonus to Luck / Morale into an artifact that reduces luck / morale of the enemy.

[Jolly Joker]

Alamar, I don't disagree with you themewise, but for certain reasons I don't want to list at length I'd think that the negative morale boost would be too strong.

[Alamar]

Alamar, I don't disagree with you themewise, but for certain reasons I don't want to list at length I'd think that the negative morale boost would be too strong.

Now that I can buy as reasonable!

Before any attempt would be made to go with my option 2 a LOT of thought should be made to look at balance issues. This would be a better change to consider for an H6 instead of a patch/expansion update. [too radical of a change]

When we were discussing this issue in another thread I pointed out that allowing this new ability to drive luck / morale into negative values would probably cause balance issues [as you have already pointed out].

[ThunderTitan]

How about the negative morale only applying when the enemy has positive morale, maybe going below 0 at the highest lvl (just by 1). With enough effort anything can be balanced.

[Jolly Joker]

Nullifying (or lessening) a positive morale might be a good idea.

[Alamar]

Nullifying (or lessening) a positive morale might be a good idea.

That was basically where the discussion ended before.

If something like this was accounted for in the beginning of faction balance / design it would be OK. At this point, for H5, it is probably too much work to try to balance properly.

Plus Necros so rarely get offered Leadership anyway that it is unlikely that it would be used often ....

[Gaidal Cain]

How about the negative morale only applying when the enemy has positive morale, maybe going below 0 at the highest lvl (just by 1). With enough effort anything can be balanced.

If that's waht needed, it kinds of suggests to me that negative morale has a too large effect. One have to remember that the majority of figfhts are against neutrals whcih won't have very much morale, which would effectively make any points beyond the first much less valuable.

[Alamar]

How about the negative morale only applying when the enemy has positive morale, maybe going below 0 at the highest lvl (just by 1). With enough effort anything can be balanced.

If that's waht needed, it kinds of suggests to me that negative morale has a too large effect. One have to remember that the majority of figfhts are against neutrals whcih won't have very much morale, which would effectively make any points beyond the first much less valuable.

You have a very good point.

What I wanted to make sure didn't happen is that I gave the Necros yet ANOTHER way to hammer nuetrals in the early and mid game. If it is too easy for the Necros to do this then they'll have too much of an early advantage.

I was also worried about heroes that don't often get Luck / Leadership so we wouldn't bury them ....

If it matters I do think there could be improvements to the way Luck & Morale currently work but the system we have now isn't too bad.

[ThunderTitan]

One have to remember that the majority of figfhts are against neutrals which won't have very much morale, which would effectively make any points beyond the first much less valuable.

Which is why i suggested the -1 for Expert Leadership. Of course this needs in-game testing.

[DaemianLucifer]

How about:

Basic:Decreases morale by -1,but never bellow 0
Advanced:Decreases morale and luck by -1,but never bellow 0
Expert:Decreases morale and luck by -2,but never bellow -1

But I still think its better if it affected speed/initiative of your own troops.All of that falls under leadership anyway.

[ThunderTitan]

How about:

Basic:Decreases morale by -1,but never bellow 0
Advanced:Decreases morale and luck by -1,but never bellow 0
Expert:Decreases morale and luck by -2,but never bellow -1

But I still think its better if it affected speed/initiative of your own troops.All of that falls under leadership anyway.

Like i said, this need to be tested in-game.

[DaemianLucifer]

Maybe it could be modded.Lets see what ST has to say about it.Though Im not sure a limit such as "never bellow X" can be set in skills..