Skills and Abilities rant!

[OliverFA]

What I am saying is that hero development is important to the game, and has been something that has been developing over the entire series, right back from the original HoMM. By contrast, army development has been quite so evident over the series - the last significant army improvement was being able to upgrade your army stacks, and that came with HoMM 2!

No,there was the option to select which creature youll buy and that came with HIV.And it is an improvement.And also,there was creature XP that came with WoG(true it is a fan made,but its still heroes).

The next logical step would be to mix H2 (some creatures are upgradable but not all) with H4 (in some levels you have to choose between two possible dwellings) and WoG (Creature Experience).

[DaemianLucifer]

The next logical step would be to mix H2 (some creatures are upgradable but not all) with H4 (in some levels you have to choose between two possible dwellings) and WoG (Creature Experience).

I though so too,but it seems that the next logical step is to scratch HIV completely like it never existed and go straight back to HIII,with completely disregarding any fan made mods.

[Da' vane]

DL - WoG and Equilibris aren't official, so can't be counted. The ability to choose whether you get to take the normal or upgraded creatures isn't really an improvement - it's a glaring oversight that was finally fixed...

I know this is a strategy game, but sometimes, thinking is bad. In this case, planning ahead that you are going for the ultimate, even though you haven't seen the map or your enemies, or anything else. Heck, planning to get the ultimate before you even get your heroes. More often than not, people choose which hero they start with, often going for what they consider are the best heroes of that faction.

Essentially, organic development means not planning ahead. You'll level up as the situation deems appropriate. That means not taking master of blessings if you don't have either of the spells in your spellbook or guild, even if it means not getting Guardian Angel. It means not taking Intelligence if you don't use spells, even if you need it for your ultimate. Heck, because of the lack of documentation, people won't have seen the skill wheel and know about the ultimate! Improved documentation aids planning - but any argument along the lines of "but you need to plan" just proves my point. if you are forced to plan ahead, you can't organically develop your heroes, and that's how I like to play...

I play HoMM games primarily for the stories in the campaigns. These tend to be based around heroes who lead armies - that's the unique grab for the HoMM series, and something that should be exploited to its fullest. There's plenty of games out there that cover hero development (RPGs and such), there's plenty of games that cover armies (RTS and Wargames), and there's there's plenty of games that handle kingdom building and resource management (Civ IV, and almost any sort of city/nation Sim you care to mention).

But Heroes of Might and Magic is the only game that covers these things together in one game. There should be truly epic Hero development options, rivalling almost any RPG on the market, but with a strong bias towards army leadership (because you never get to lead an army in any RPG, which focuses on the sole character experience). There should be war tactics that rival any wargame or RTS on the market (although, real time control is probably against the turn-based theme...) and you should have city/kingdom and resource management rivalling any economics, nation or city-based sim.

I say rivalling, because HoMM will never beat a "pure" game in it's own field, but then, it doesn't have to. Because RTS games don't have Hero Development, but HoMM does. Pure city or nation sims tend not to have major war elements or Hero development either. And RPGs don't have army leadership or kingdom development in there. HoMM has all three, and they should all be interconnected, so it's a single game, not different styles of game shoe-horned into one package.

And, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the new world seems to be pretty bland right now. It sounds very much like a H3 RoE remake, without the appeal. But then, I suppose that's okay for a H3 remake without the eppeal, either...

[Ethric]

I didn't get how annoying this could be until yesterday (haven't played too much) when I thought that Grok would be cool to start with as I could then get Teleport Assault. Since he starts with logistics. But he also starts with pathfinding, and I foolishly took Swift Gating when I got it offered as it seemed to be a good skill to have. But then I realised that for teleport assautl I need scouting, and with scouting the logistics-slot was full so I could never get teleport assault. Bleh

[DaemianLucifer]

DL - WoG and Equilibris aren't official, so can't be counted.

Civ never had the problem of implementing fan made modes in the sequels,so these should be counted.

The ability to choose whether you get to take the normal or upgraded creatures isn't really an improvement - it's a glaring oversight that was finally fixed...

I was talking about the choice we had in HIV,not to be able to choose between the normal and the upgraded one.Besides,that one doesnt work,because its an upgrade.Its supposed to be stronger.Its just natural youll pick it over a basic creature if you have the money.I dont see why they even tried to implement this thing.

I know this is a strategy game, but sometimes, thinking is bad. In this case, planning ahead that you are going for the ultimate, even though you haven't seen the map or your enemies, or anything else. Heck, planning to get the ultimate before you even get your heroes. More often than not, people choose which hero they start with, often going for what they consider are the best heroes of that faction.

Thats called intuition.Did all those nations during the course of history think "Lets see what our enemies have and then well assebmle an army"?No,they all had standing armies that were tweaked acording to the enemies they encountered.A good strategist plans ahead to assemble the army that can easily adapt to any situation.

Essentially, organic development means not planning ahead. You'll level up as the situation deems appropriate. That means not taking master of blessings if you don't have either of the spells in your spellbook or guild, even if it means not getting Guardian Angel. It means not taking Intelligence if you don't use spells, even if you need it for your ultimate. Heck, because of the lack of documentation, people won't have seen the skill wheel and know about the ultimate! Improved documentation aids planning - but any argument along the lines of "but you need to plan" just proves my point. if you are forced to plan ahead, you can't organically develop your heroes, and that's how I like to play...

Then dont chase the ultimate.No one forces you to.The ultimate is meant to award those that want to plan ahead.There are loads of other equally good choices.

I play HoMM games primarily for the stories in the campaigns. These tend to be based around heroes who lead armies - that's the unique grab for the HoMM series, and something that should be exploited to its fullest. There's plenty of games out there that cover hero development (RPGs and such), there's plenty of games that cover armies (RTS and Wargames), and there's there's plenty of games that handle kingdom building and resource management (Civ IV, and almost any sort of city/nation Sim you care to mention).

But Heroes of Might and Magic is the only game that covers these things together in one game. There should be truly epic Hero development options, rivalling almost any RPG on the market, but with a strong bias towards army leadership (because you never get to lead an army in any RPG, which focuses on the sole character experience). There should be war tactics that rival any wargame or RTS on the market (although, real time control is probably against the turn-based theme...) and you should have city/kingdom and resource management rivalling any economics, nation or city-based sim.

You never heard of disciples or spellforce?One is a TBS and other an RTS and both have resource micromanagment,army assemling and leading and heroes development.WCIII also has heroes development,armies and resources.Heroes isnt the only one.

I say rivalling, because HoMM will never beat a "pure" game in it's own field, but then, it doesn't have to. Because RTS games don't have Hero Development, but HoMM does. Pure city or nation sims tend not to have major war elements or Hero development either. And RPGs don't have army leadership or kingdom development in there. HoMM has all three, and they should all be interconnected, so it's a single game, not different styles of game shoe-horned into one package.

Lots of recent RTSs have hero development(WCIII),nation seems can have major war elements(settlers),and RPGs can have army leadership(spellforce)

And, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the new world seems to be pretty bland right now. It sounds very much like a H3 RoE remake, without the appeal. But then, I suppose that's okay for a H3 remake without the eppeal, either...

Yes it is bland.Too bad they destroyed the old universe because of this.

[Caradoc]

What I really hate is when I am presented with two skills that I don't want and that would eat up valuable slots, and two abilities that I don't want and that would eat up valuable slots. I'd really rather 'pass' and try to get something better next time.

[Da' vane]

Civ never had the problem of implementing fan made modes in the sequels,so these should be counted.

Nival/Ubisoft is not Firaxis - and since Nival/Ubisoft have decided not to include options from such mods, they can't be counted. Mods are aking to homebrewed or third-party ruling in a RPG system - they aren't discussed when you talk about "official" material.

I was talking about the choice we had in HIV,not to be able to choose between the normal and the upgraded one.Besides,that one doesnt work,because its an upgrade.Its supposed to be stronger.Its just natural youll pick it over a basic creature if you have the money.I dont see why they even tried to implement this thing.

Did H4 even have upgraded creatures? Anyway - you've cited one reason for prefering a basic version over and upgrade: money. There were also some specific cases when you might not choose them - Magogs shot a fireball that damaged your own troops. More often than not, you stuck with the basic version, so it was an efficient ranged attacker that didn't cause more damage to your own troops than the enemy did...

Of course, if upgrades don't count, then there has been NO evolution in army development since the first HoMM...

Thats called intuition.Did all those nations during the course of history think "Lets see what our enemies have and then well assebmle an army"?No,they all had standing armies that were tweaked acording to the enemies they encountered.A good strategist plans ahead to assemble the army that can easily adapt to any situation.

Actually, they did. It's called reconaisance, and is a major factor in military espionage. Lots of nations and cultures developed strategies and troops in direct response to what their opponents did and had.

Then dont chase the ultimate.No one forces you to.The ultimate is meant to award those that want to plan ahead.There are loads of other equally good choices.

Technically, there isn't. That's why it's called the ultimate. A lot of the justification for the insane requirements for the ultimates is because they are quite powerful. So, given one ultimate per hero type, there cannot be any other "equally good" choices.

You never heard of disciples or spellforce?One is a TBS and other an RTS and both have resource micromanagment,army assemling and leading and heroes development.WCIII also has heroes development,armies and resources.Heroes isnt the only one.

Heroes may not be the only one - but the others aren't that good, otherwise we'd all be playing those games instead of discussing H5. but, that's the unique draw for the genre, and that's what the HoMM series should be focusing on, and Heroes development is part of that.

As it stands, the HoMM series is the best of a pretty poor crowd, and it should be revaling contenders in the pure categories, not stagnating in a monopoly of the Turn-based Kingsom, Hero, Army Strategy genre...

Yes it is bland.Too bad they destroyed the old universe because of this.

Finally, something we agree on...

[Gaidal Cain]

I didn't get how annoying this could be until yesterday (haven't played too much) when I thought that Grok would be cool to start with as I could then get Teleport Assault. Since he starts with logistics. But he also starts with pathfinding, and I foolishly took Swift Gating when I got it offered as it seemed to be a good skill to have. But then I realised that for teleport assautl I need scouting, and with scouting the logistics-slot was full so I could never get teleport assault. Bleh

What are you talking about? It goes Pathfinding->Swift Gating->Teleport Assualt (though you need Consume Corpse for it as well). There are situations where starting abilities don't allow to pick advanced abilities, but this ain't one.

Da' vane:

As Daemian said, there's nothing that stops you form just choosing whatever you think is cool. You'll most likely end up with a hero that's good enough for your needs- I first played through the campaigns in that manner. If you're on a challenging map or in a MP game, this might not work quite as well, but for recreational playing, "organic" development should be just fine.

Technically, there isn't. That's why it's called the ultimate. A lot of the justification for the insane requirements for the ultimates is because they are quite powerful. So, given one ultimate per hero type, there cannot be any other "equally good" choices.

I've yet to get an ultimate in my playing, and I've not been worse for it. And some of the ultimates are currently so sucky that I think one could easily make a better hero with a different set of skills. Others are of course very very good, but you're going to have a harder time on your way there just because you have to take very specific abilities. Again, this is called tradeoff.

[Ethric]

What are you talking about? It goes Pathfinding->Swift Gating->Teleport Assualt (though you need Consume Corpse for it as well). There are situations where starting abilities don't allow to pick advanced abilities, but this ain't one.

Perhaps I remember the path to it for another hero class then, excuse me for not having memorised everything. And the skillwheel on CH is unavailable at the moment so couldn't check.

But the point wasn't that I was blocked from getting the ability at all, but that if you take an ability that you think looks nice right now, you may be prohibited from taking other ones later, since there may be a big number of skills to take but you are forced to only take three. This wouldn't be much of a problem if you had full control over what to take and had easy access to a skillchart ingame, but coupled with the classic HoMM randomness at leveling this feature can be quite annoying.

[DaemianLucifer]

Nival/Ubisoft is not Firaxis - and since Nival/Ubisoft have decided not to include options from such mods, they can't be counted. Mods are aking to homebrewed or third-party ruling in a RPG system - they aren't discussed when you talk about "official" material.

Their loss for not listening to the fans.Thats why civ is constantly evolving while HoMM is making 5 steps back for every one it makes forward.

Did H4 even have upgraded creatures? Anyway - you've cited one reason for prefering a basic version over and upgrade: money. There were also some specific cases when you might not choose them - Magogs shot a fireball that damaged your own troops. More often than not, you stuck with the basic version, so it was an efficient ranged attacker that didn't cause more damage to your own troops than the enemy did...

Of course, if upgrades don't count, then there has been NO evolution in army development since the first HoMM...

HIV didnt have the upgrades.And money dictates just the begining of the game,but not your end strategy since it always comes to ugrading the units.If you dont have enough cash to buy your whole population you wont decide to buy basic instead of upgraded creatures,but youll decide to leave out one of the tiers,and thats what I was talking about.Now if it was like in disciples that upgrading a unit requires money and combat expirience,that would be a big difference.

Actually, they did. It's called reconaisance, and is a major factor in military espionage. Lots of nations and cultures developed strategies and troops in direct response to what their opponents did and had.

Spying isnt 100% effective.Especially if your opponent uses coutnerspying techniques.They just tweaked their militaries a bit,but armies were still universal and tweakable.Besides,you have the thieves guild in heroes.It provides you the same info basic reconaisance would.

Technically, there isn't. That's why it's called the ultimate. A lot of the justification for the insane requirements for the ultimates is because they are quite powerful. So, given one ultimate per hero type, there cannot be any other "equally good" choices.

But you have to sacrifice some very good mix to get the ultimate,and get some skills you might never use.For instance,warlocks ultimate requires war machines.But if your machines get destroyed and you are fighting open field battles,you wont benefit from this one at all.Thats why other choices can be on par with the path towards the ultimate.

Heroes may not be the only one - but the others aren't that good, otherwise we'd all be playing those games instead of discussing H5. but, that's the unique draw for the genre, and that's what the HoMM series should be focusing on, and Heroes development is part of that.

Who says we arent playing?Ill play disciples 3 when they come out.Ill play SF2 as well.Just because Im discussing heroes in a heroes forum doesnt mean I never play other games,nor that I love heroes more than other games(its the fact I discuss heroes in other places that says this )

[Gaidal Cain]

But the point wasn't that I was blocked from getting the ability at all, but that if you take an ability that you think looks nice right now, you may be prohibited from taking other ones later, since there may be a big number of skills to take but you are forced to only take three. This wouldn't be much of a problem if you had full control over what to take and had easy access to a skillchart ingame, but coupled with the classic HoMM randomness at leveling this feature can be quite annoying.

Meh. Even with the randomness, it's usually rather easy to get the abilities you want- if you know the pre-reqs. Your complaint seems to be more rooted in the poor ingame documentation. BTW, if you don't have the Skill Wheel printed by now, it's a strong recommendation to do so. Then you'd perhaps notice that the confusion you had earlier was quite illogic, as two advanced abilities never have two different perks in the same skill family as prereqs (well, except for the bugged resistance for warlocks).

[Ethric]

Poor documentation and that you can only have 3 of each. I don't like that limitation. I think it would be better if you allowed a hero to delve deep into the ablities of one or two skillsets, and get as many of them as he has the prerequiites for. Afterall, that's what people often do when they're good at something: they try to get even better, learn more, spcialise. Here you're basically told that sorry, your brain's full on logistics-related knowledge, so why not improve your knowledge on the dark arts instead (for example).

You might say that it's a good way to make sure your hero isn't rendered useless by only knowing one type of skills, but that's not a type of babysitting I care for in a game. And that also branches over in something else, namely that I think you should be allowed more than one hero per army. That way, you can have 2 or 3 specialists, instead of one generalist.

[DaemianLucifer]

(well, except for the bugged resistance for warlocks).

Just noticed that one.Is that the wheels mistake or it can never be obtained?

[Jolly Joker]

No, I disagree. The main point here has been mentioned by Gaidal Cain: If you are always eligble to get each and every ability related to a skill your hero has the 2 offered abilities would be a very random selection out of a very big bumber of possible abilities each time. The way it is now you have ALOT more control in developing.

Not if you give always the choice between improving an already existing skill or picking a new one.

No. It's about ABILITIES, not skills.

[DaemianLucifer]

You might say that it's a good way to make sure your hero isn't rendered useless by only knowing one type of skills, but that's not a type of babysitting I care for in a game. And that also branches over in something else, namely that I think you should be allowed more than one hero per army. That way, you can have 2 or 3 specialists, instead of one generalist.

Hit the nail right in the head!We need more heroes back.That way we could have each skill to go to level 5,and drop another load of abilitieas for each skill.But this one would also need the tweaking of leveling up system as well.

[Gaidal Cain]

You might say that it's a good way to make sure your hero isn't rendered useless by only knowing one type of skills, but that's not a type of babysitting I care for in a game.

No, I say that it's a good way to balance the system . Just for the same reason as you don't get how many skills you want, because it would just mean that you'd always pick the ones that suits you best and never be force to trade some power now for more power later. For example, If I go for Urgash Call, it means giving up on tactics- which is a pretty major sacrifice (too bad the abilities that I get aren't good enough to sacrifice tactics for).

More heroes in an army, and them being a more specialized, would be nice of course, but I don't want a return to H4's level. It was just so boring to have a hero and know that he'd have max two skills, just because it took forever to get them somewhere.

And the skill Wheel is correct when it comes to resistance.

[OliverFA]

No, I disagree. The main point here has been mentioned by Gaidal Cain: If you are always eligble to get each and every ability related to a skill your hero has the 2 offered abilities would be a very random selection out of a very big bumber of possible abilities each time. The way it is now you have ALOT more control in developing.

Not if you give always the choice between improving an already existing skill or picking a new one.

No. It's about ABILITIES, not skills.

I think I didn't explain myself properly here. I don't want to change the way skills and abilities are offered. I just want to remove the limitation of 5 skills and 3 abilities per skill.

so basically, if your hero is level 9 he could either have 3 expert skills or 1 expert skill and 6 basic skills or any other combination you wanted, not having to be limited by the 5 skills limit.

[OliverFA]

Poor documentation and that you can only have 3 of each. Here you're basically told that sorry, your brain's full on logistics-related knowledge, so why not improve your knowledge on the dark arts instead (for example).

I 100% agree. You are being limited anyway by experience. Each level costs more and more experience to achieve. What you do with the just achieved level is your business.

[Gaidal Cain]

I think I didn't explain myself properly here. I don't want to change the way skills and abilities are offered. I just want to remove the limitation of 5 skills and 3 abilities per skill.

And again, if you remove the limit 1 ability for 1 level, you'll have so many abilities that you could be offered that you'd have a very hard time to get to the ultimate, just because you'd almost always beoffered abilities for a skill from which you already have what you need.

[Ethric]

No, I say that it's a good way to balance the system . Just for the same reason as you don't get how many skills you want, because it would just mean that you'd always pick the ones that suits you best and never be force to trade some power now for more power later. For example, If I go for Urgash Call, it means giving up on tactics- which is a pretty major sacrifice (too bad the abilities that I get aren't good enough to sacrifice tactics for).

Oliver said it very nicely:

You are being limited anyway by experience. Each level costs more and more experience to achieve. What you do with the just achieved level is your business.