Heroes III: how would you rank the towns?

[klaymen]

What Star King said.

Also I find it amusing that you rely on certain heroes, artifacts or dragon utopias - they are not on every map nor they are in large numbers nor there is guaranteed that yoi will find exactly those items you need. That makes your strategy very luck-based at best.

[tone]

when i play xl is rare thing if i do not find armor of ofence hero speciality. on tower i start with neela but i easy drop her for any other since i do not like scholar skill. also my oponent found mephala, and also made bow of the sharpshoter and had archery skill on him, but is no near the advantage of tower. at the moment of battle he explored much more than me but with no use i had 74 attack skill on crag hack and 46 defence. so on a long time fight conflux is very very easy to beat with tower or castle. 1 archangel or 1 titan beats sooooo easy 2 phoenixes. also he had 1207 spirites and when my 120 genies hit them almost 1000 droped instant. even if he had mephala and good defence and attack skill the tower units with magic anihilation hero were to much for a low town like conflux. titan>2phoenix, nagaqueen>>>any level 7 unit in game, mages>energy elements, level1 archers also under efect of bow > spirites. the last units that i took down were his archers since he also had bow of the sharpshooter.

[tone]

play random 6lm10 maps or 8xm8 or 8mm6 tipes. those have all aritfacts in game except vial of dragon blood and armagheddons blade

[tone]

good thing for oponent i did not have orrin. titans on orrin with bow of the sharpshooter are the biggest damage level 7 units possible. i managed to beat a few days ago orrin on tower beacause i got very very lucky to catch crag hack on rampart and was offenisve hero vs offensive hero. and with orb of inhibition in play, was lucky to blind nagaqueens with my unicorns and i won at a small difference reamainig with some trees and dwarfs and few unicorns

[Bandobras Took]

The numerous instances of "always" suggest that you indeed do play on maps where every artifact seems to be at your doorstep . . . but you must keep in mind that this is not the most common state of affairs.

[tone]

for example very very important is who is first because at the start of the month artifact merchants in a town can be a decisive factor since there you find components for bow of sharpshoter, elixir of life, recanter's cloak and the fortress killer armor of the damned. a 40 at 50 def with orb of inh and armor of the damned slaughters easy a 70 at 80 defence tazar on fortress. this is fortress greatest weakness. armor of the damned+ orb of inhibition

[tone]

so i still say that on xl maps on a longer match conflux is a weak town compare to castle or tower

[Banedon]

Tell you what. Pick any XL map. Pick any race, any colour, etc. Play three (or four, if you want) weeks of it and post your army. I'll do the same with Conflux and post my army. We see how big a force you can accumulate vs. mine.

I'm positive I'll have so much superior a force advantage that you will realize you cannot win.

[tone]

remember i play xl on king level. you army will not be that big and is very low chance to find me in that small time

[Banedon]

So be it then. XL on King level. Pick a map, pick a duration, pick a colour. You use any race, I'll use Conflux. We'll see who amasses the bigger army in the time given.

[tone]

a bigger army is not a better one. phoenix low life, low damage, low skills, dies easy

[Tress]

a bigger army is not a better one. phoenix low life, low damage, low skills, dies easy

Of course not by head count(except for hydras). There are many other much more objective parameters that would determine armies power - Hp for one.

Also if Confux(and I believe it is) is so much stronger than other factions, then comparing armies power wouldnt be problem as we can just pit both armies vs each other, and most powerful one will consistently win.

[Salamandre]

All it matters in this kind of dispute is the name and skill of your opponent. I don't know why WCL tournament banned Conflux-I understand about necro- they may have their reasons. It is true that Conflux can beat any other town if hit&run, but there are many counters also for this tactic.

At high level play, the brute force does not matter as much as your heroes skills, spells and mobility. As a thumb rule, it is very hard to counter 5-6 decent spellcasters entering your territory with 1 phoenix only. And if they have destruction mass spells also, the outcome may be very bad for you. No matter what relics you have except recanter or red orb, but you can't have it on every hero. Your economy will never be same again.

[Banedon]

a bigger army is not a better one. phoenix low life, low damage, low skills, dies easy

I will build a better army. Even you must agree that 22 Phoenixes > 9 Archangels.

And yes, we can simply fight each other with those armies and see what happens. Conflux can't lose.

@above - isn't it obvious? Conflux is unbeatable. Armies start fast and stay fast. They scramble up to level 7 units extremely quickly. They have access to any spell mastery that they need. Phoenixes reproduce at 4x per week. Sprites clear any slow walkers early-game, Storm Elementals are insanely strong level 2 units.

You cannot beat Conflux assuming equal skill and equal map. Why don't you try it and see?

[tone]

if you are so worried you cannot find magic block artifact take resistance skill or play rampart thorgrim. you also have protection from fire water earth air spells and expert antimagic spell put units near unicorns dwarf natural protection gold dragons the same. in heroes 3 the last thing i worry is damage spells. what i worry is expert slow, haste, shield, stone skin, prayer. those are real good spells

[Salamandre]

You cannot beat Conflux assuming equal skill and equal map. Why don't you try it and see?

And this is exactly what I did during 5 years of ToH online play. I won and I lost against Conflux as it was any town. I have no proof that conflux is unbeatable, map settings can give hundreds of various advantages as well as bad things. What size is the map, what hero you get, what artefacts you get or don't get, what dwellings you find, how well your opponent plays etc.

But there is something worth to know, I never played closed maps, where you have the time to build your dream empire for weeks or months. In all maps I played, factions can meet and start the skirmish during first week. Under constant pressure it is hard to get level 7, on all towns.

The only town which scared the hell from me was sorceress in H2, I learned to respect speed. With no available shackles and full movement after surrendering, that town was unbeatable.

[Pitsu]

Tone, i wonder how long do your XL maps usually play? You speak about unbelievable hero stats, importance of order due to artifact merchant monthly updates and rather big armies. Without having played random XL maps recently started one (with conflux at impossible/king setting). Against 3 AIs it was finished at start of ninth week. Sure, with a human opponent I would probably have been more careful in a few occasions, but nevertheless I'd expect to see my opponent in the begin of second month latest. And while you speak about assembling combo artifacts, do not forget that simple lvl 1 spells (view air and earth) allow your opponents to keep an eye on you and find the shortest way to assault you. Conflux should not take its time and if it gives you more than 6 weeks (XL at hardest difficulty) to prepare, the player is not using conflux full potential.

Certainly conflux can be beaten under favorable circumstances and it has at least one weakness (inability to ressurect or raise big part of its army). As Salamandre said, compared to barbarian led H1/H2 sorceress it can be even considered almost balanced. Still, unless the mapmaker has taken special measures, I'd say conflux has significant advantages over other towns.

[Banedon]

And this is exactly what I did during 5 years of ToH online play. I won and I lost against Conflux as it was any town. I have no proof that conflux is unbeatable, map settings can give hundreds of various advantages as well as bad things. What size is the map, what hero you get, what artefacts you get or don't get, what dwellings you find, how well your opponent plays etc.

But there is something worth to know, I never played closed maps, where you have the time to build your dream empire for weeks or months. In all maps I played, factions can meet and start the skirmish during first week. Under constant pressure it is hard to get level 7, on all towns.

The only town which scared the hell from me was sorceress in H2, I learned to respect speed. With no available shackles and full movement after surrendering, that town was unbeatable.

Give me example of map you play?

I find it hard to believe that ALL towns can find it hard to get level 7 units. Stronghold can hit Behemoths after three turns if they want to, for example. Conflux can't build Firebirds / Phoenixes that quickly, but they definitely rank as one of the faster towns (they will beat out Rampart, Castle ...)

Seems to me that you've not played Conflux much, or that the ToH stats don't reflect true strength because in my experience no good player looking for a game is even going to pick Conflux. The imbalance is so strong the other player must pick Conflux or lose before the game even begins. Have you tried playing Conflux against yourself?

tone is ignoring my challenge ~_~

And lol, I used to worry not about damage spells either, until a single Chain Lightning knocked out 3 of my 5 Archangels ...

[Salamandre]

The first 3-4 seasons in TOH had almost all top Heroes 2 players in. So they kept playing same kind of maps as in Heroes 2, medium/large, with early conflict and choke points to keep. One example of most played maps is Beltway or Seven Lakes (converted from Heroes 2).

Beltway can be found here:
http://www.toheroes.com/h3maps/medium.html
Seven lakes same link but large map.

You will have all enemies scouts in your area by day 2-3 on Beltway and 4-6 on Seven Lakes. If you don't get rid of them and let pick the goodies, you can't survive until week 3. I enjoy those maps because I dislike playing vs neutrals and being blocked in my area while the other may find relics or whatever and get some advantage. If I see what he does, I have a chance to take him out before. If I see he is necro, I will try to kill everybody on the map before him. If he is conflux, I will try to keep him away for ever from building his town. He will do same to me, and so on.

Therefore the tactics used to slaughter 6-7 scouts in same turn and with same army required complex positioning and economy priority. Needles to say, if you lost them, getting behemots or phoenix isn't worth, no money left.

After 5th season or so, TOH was invaded by thousand of newbies which started to make endless rules and restrictions, until everyone played only closed maps (preferably with high level monsters blocking way between players), as they could not handle open. From that moment, all veterans left massively, no interest and time for such long games.

The closed maps are profitable to the randomness, as if you get some powerful artefact in your area, or have time to build guild 5 and lucky, there is no way for the other to counter it. When you meet, dices are thrown, bonuses already established.

On open maps, it is very hard to build your way until level 7. On closed, you get them day 7 or earlier. Always. So what's the challenge?

Not to mention that almost all regular map which came with the original game are open. I believe the developers did not design this game for individual development, without any threat for months. The balance between towns, including conflux and necro, is analyzed from a new point of view then. On closed maps, you don't care about each hero specialty, because all you need is to build a Rambo with expert earth and armorer/offence. On open, each insignificant specialty has its role to play, between secondary heroes skirmish. Even the infamous eagle eye can be salutary. 3DO would have NEVER design heroes as Tazar or Crag Hack if they had in mind those heroes will have the time to grown until level 30+ before final fight.

Conflict about closed vs open had already spawned some 100 threads in HC. To each one its own style.

All I can say is: if you get your phoenixes growing, and amass a large force from them, it is your opponent fault, he gave you way too much time. It is not conflux who wins, but his laziness.

[tone]

who what where? what challenge?