M&M: The New Order (MMTNO)

[Macros the Black]

To make fighters more valuable they should just deal more damage. Damage should be more balanced in the game.

I don't know. Melee characters are always logically going to have more HP than casters, so to balance this a Knight just can't do as much damage as a Sorcerer. A Monk could, if you were to give him not too much health and armor class. Then you could say the small amount of health/ac he has more is to balance against the Sorcerer's utility spells like fly and such.
But a Knight shouldn't do as much damage, because he's going to have alot of hp. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a Knight.
So I think it wouldn't be easy to balance the damage. And you wouldn't have to, if only you had a way of making the Knight's additional hit points and armor class more useful.
Problem is, the Knight would be just as good as a Sorcerer if it was a solo game. But since you're with a group, his additional hp and ac isn't going to help much if the rest of the group is dieing. Guarding fixes this problem.
Anyway, look at all the group-based games nowadays, and you can see that all of them are using the Guarding-idea. Like in WoW it's called "threat" or "aggro" but it's the same thing.

In original MM's there is one way to use fighter's HP by casting Shared Life.

Yeah. It was a really useful spell, too. But masking a game-balance problem with a spell isn't really the best way to go, especially if the spell cannot even be learned by the fighting characters themselves (although, granted, no one should be without a healer).

Another guarding-like idea is that characters that used weapon or melee spell (like poison spray, sparks, sharpmetal) should step forward. So, melee characters would be in front line and casters would be in back line. Monsters in front of the party would have better chance of hitting characters in the front line while monsters on the back would have better chance of hitting characters of the back line.

That's also an interesting idea

[GrayFace]

Yes, Guarding idea is nice. But I think each fighter should be able to use Guarding, not just the one who has the biggest Guarding skill.

Oh, must correct myself - there was no 'I' inventory shortcut in MM6-8, but it would be very useful.

This shortcut key is present on party browsing mode

Yes, and it would be useful in combat mode too.

I think 3-level system is a bad idea. It's very inconvenient.

This means I must explain details.

Actually, 1st level is 2devent, 2nd is NPCdata and the 3rd is topic. There's no need in such system, because there's no reason for NPCs to share the same topic. The inconvenience is very big. It lays in topics indexes, having to edit two files to add topics and difficulty making a dialog tree.

Instead, the function that returns variant index can activate several variants. In addition to returning a variant, it should be able to call some function to activate additional variants.

Better to write function, that returns 1 if topic is to be shown, and 0 otherwise. It is one of good replacements for current implementation. Also, it is functional implementation of 3-level model I telled about.

I don't see a single advantage in the way you propose. Logic would be spread among several functions. In current implementation there is a single function that returns one of 3 states: "quest not given", "quest given", "quest completed". With implementation you suggest there would be 3 functions that do the same thing. BTW, your suggestion is implemented in MM8.

Here's an illistration of my proposal. Say, you have an NPC saying following:
Weather - Just text
The Letter/Lord Kilburn/High Council/Service To The Crown - one of 3 quests or one "thank you" topic with text only
Crusaders/Heroes - one of promotion 2 quests or just text after the Heroes quest is completed
Black Pearl - present if you have the pearl
The greeting text is either "Hi", "Hi Crusaders" or "Hi Heroes".
(in MM6 he has no greeting text and doesn't talk about weather, but let's say he does)

So, variants are:
0 - "Weather" topic
10 - "The Letter" topic
11 - "Lord Kilburn" topic
12 - "High Council" topic
13 - "Service To The Crown" topic
20 - "Crusaders" topic + "Hi" text
21 - "Heroes" topic + "Hi Crusaders" text
22 - "Heroes" topic (with just text) + "Hi Heroes" text
1 - "Black Pearl" topic

The function will look like this:
{
ActivateVariant(0);
ActivateVariant(10 or 11 or 12 or 13); (depending on main line quests state)
if (have the item) ActivateVariant(1);
return 20 or 21 or 22; (depending on promotion quests state)
}

About the greeting text:
Since only one variant of text can be shown, the return value would define it. ActivateVariant would only show the topics and ignore <text> in variants.

[GrayFace]

Some bugs:
1) Very funny one: pick up one item, don't give it to character and pick up another item. You'll have the first item floating over the screen.
2) I once had an invulnerable mouse in the Granary. My characters tried to hit it but always missed.

[matgaw]

The function will look like this:
{
ActivateVariant(0);
ActivateVariant(10 or 11 or 12 or 13); (depending on main line quests state)
if (have the item) ActivateVariant(1);
return 20 or 21 or 22; (depending on promotion quests state)
}

About the greeting text:
Since only one variant of text can be shown, the return value would define it. ActivateVariant would only show the topics and ignore <text> in variants.

Your ActivateVariant idea is very good and easy to implement, doesn't require to call multiple functions for each variant and doesn't use complicated structures. I think we should consider this solution. Maybe the "return" statement will become completely unnecessary.

About other ideas - I'm happy that such discussion came to the board. We're reading your ideas and in some near future we'll discuss them with you also. Thanks for all the contributions! Guarding seems very promising so far.

At the moment we have lots of more basic stuff to implement (savegames, chests, water, sounds, other things...) so your ideas will come to production in farther future, but it's good that discussion starts right now and we have time to check if everything makes sense and can prepare for it.

P.S. Did any of you play so long that night started showing up? How do you like this effect? For the moment, the sunrise/fall time is fixed but this will probably change in the future.

P.P.S. The real work will start at the end of february - we're still stuck in our exams...

[GrayFace]

I've made 2 videos with bugs I described before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI4vW8618mU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxZcHh-X-Vo

[tolich]

IMNSHO the 2nd video as informative as two or three screenshots. (Well, Zelda theme is awesome maybe it's to be used in the next demo? XD)

More errors:
1) Timothy gives a tower key and grands expirence for every piece of cheese you brought. (This feature requires to reenter his house).
2) When I drop the amulet upon any sarcophagus, the game crash to desktop.
3) Those guys in the mines either do not quest me to clean the mines or do not accept the quest, when all is clear.
4) All monsters are kamikazes. They never retreat. Moreover, they feel party through walls! Outoor they climb mountains, obviously planning attack from above. Indoor they however even cannot raise the stairs, but still try to butt walls.
5) And those peasants. If the party comes to troubles close to the village or to the city, those guys come to 'help', mostly becoming the closest monsters, that party members attack.
6) Scythe quest has only one bug, the omitted semicolon just in one script statement. However if you fix it, the next error is that if you say scythe is 60 gold, you'll receive just 60 gold, not 120, as was promised.
7) Inn keeper offers 12 food for 17 gold, but really sells 17 food for 17 gold.

As a suggestion, the starting house dweller may not only speak 'Go to work'. What about "It's lost" and "What to do" prophet topics?

[tolich]

I tryed to implement "We lost it" topic:

<dialogue id="31" action="dialogue">
<text>You could get to work. We've cured you and returned you to health, and you do what?</text>
<option text="Hint">
<text>Try to visit City Hall. The Mayor must know something about this calamity. </text>
</option>
<option text="We lost it" action="script" function="LostItem">
<option variant="0"><text>You didn't have it.</text></option>
<option variant="1"><text>That's the key you've lost.</text></option>
<option variant="2"><text>That's the letter you've lost.</text></option>
<option variant="3"><text>That's the beef carcass you've lost.</text></option>
<option variant="4"><text>That's the discount card you've lost.</text></option>
<option variant="5"><text>That's the shopping list you've lost.</text></option>
<option variant="6"><text>That's the book you've lost.</text></option>
</option>
</dialogue>

It works (at least for items I implemented. ) However, instead of the topic name a small square is displayed. Note that all is correct, when I remove at least two options in list (no matter which).

[matgaw]

Tolich: thanks for all your research - those bugs will be fixed in next release.

GrayFace - thanks for your bugs videos. It was fun to watch you making laugh of "dragged items" bug (but it was quite long anyway).

About the options issue - current game engine allows only 4 option tags for one tree node. Since this deprecated solution - it will be changed to "any" number in next release.

Macros the Black: Melee characters have also some other disadvantages upon casters - they don't have many abilities that sorcerers have from their spells - they can't fly, heal, enhant item, teleport, attack several monsters per turn, cast haste etc., so in my opinion they deserve some good attack damage as well.
Making all the classes balanced will be a very hard work.

[Macros the Black]

Macros the Black: Melee characters have also some other disadvantages upon casters - they don't have many abilities that sorcerers have from their spells - they can't fly, heal, enhant item, teleport, attack several monsters per turn, cast haste etc., so in my opinion they deserve some good attack damage as well.
Making all the classes balanced will be a very hard work.

Well, making most of those utility spells available at expert level already helps to balance this as that means almost any regular party that does not double-class (e.g. two knights or something) will probably have access to all of these spells anyway.

Other utility spells, such as Jump, Resurrection, Shared Life and such can be master level spells as they aren't *nescesarily* - depending on how the game is designed - useful all the time, and so only add a small "bonus" to those parties that do have access to them.

Then there are the spells such as Fly, Enchant Item, Telekineses, Preservation, Power Cure, etc. that imo would make more sence if they were only available at GM level as they are simply the best spells in the game.

The only thing unbalanced then is the fact that the Sorcerer for instance gets to GM all of the Elemental schools, instead of just one or two.
If some of those schools were only GM'ered by hybrid classes, I think it would be a little more balanced..

But, this all is very different than what it's like in MM6-8, so it's quite alot to change..

Anyway, that's probably what I would do lol. But the idea of;

- Casters: Utility and Damage
- Melee: Health and Damage

could be just as good I suppose

Edit: giving the melee classes Alchemy could also be a good solution.

[GrayFace]

Magic is the most imbalanced thing in MM.
Mostly the Dark magic. Sharpmetal, Shrinking Ray, Armaggeddon are very overpowered. And there are Day of Protection, Vampiric Weapon and Soul Drainer in addition.
I think Town Portal should be Earth Magic spell. At Expert level it can take to the nearest town.
I'd like to have a spell for quick running there at Expert level too. Master/GM levels can boost running speed more.
I like the idea of more specialized spellcasters, that won't know all elemental spells equally good etc. Mages in MM6-8 have much more useful skills than fighters. I'm for Alchemy and for fighters too.

Then there are the spells such as Fly, Enchant Item, Telekineses, Preservation, Power Cure, etc. that imo would make more sence if they were only available at GM level as they are simply the best spells in the game.

Telekinesis?? It's almost useless since MM7. It's easier to have enough Disarm Trap skill by a fighter than to be master in Earth magic by a sorcerer.

[Macros the Black]

Telekinesis?? It's almost useless since MM7. It's easier to have enough Disarm Trap skill by a fighter than to be master in Earth magic by a sorcerer.

Yes, but it depends on how the game is made
If there are actually more than just 2 or 3 items that are unreachable without Telekenises, it can be useful.

I'd like to have a spell for quick running there at Expert level too. Master/GM levels can boost running speed more.

Indeed.. Just have it have the same speed as Fly, but without actually flying lol.. Or well, close to the speed of fly, because I can imagine running into alot of things if you're walking at that speed. I'm assuming it only works outside btw?

I think there should be like a Shapeshifting class that specialises in Crowd Control. He could shapeshift into a Cheetah, and that would be your running spell :p
And he should be able to turn into a Dragon as GM spell, because that would be awesome and you already have the portraits for it ^^.

[GrayFace]

I'm assuming it only works outside btw?

Why? I'd like to move fast in dungeons too.

[matgaw]

What do you think about flying inside dungeons? Technically there's no reason to forbid that. We though about quick running also.

[Variol]

Flying should absolutely be allowed IMHO. I go into the caves in MM8 and all the Dragons in there are flying; so what the heck.

[tolich]

esp. if some of your party members are dragons too.

[Macros the Black]

Eh, I think it's one of those cases where gameplay is more important to me than realism. No flying or fast running in dungeons means more room for the developers to make interesting, challenging dungeons where you can't just fly out a trap or otherwise break the intent

Although, I suppose, it all depends on how well the dungeons are designed to incorporate the spells. It could be possible. However - Jump spell is made even more useless.. Lava tiles and floor traps are obsolete, etc.

I think I'd rather have like certain spells for navigating dungeons, I think a dungeon crawl should be a slow experience. With no Fly indoors, you could have ramp you need to Jump onto, or invisible bridges (like in Mire of the Damned - bad example, that was outside - and Tularean Forest cave).

You could add a spell that reverses gravity for the party, allowing you to walk on the ceiling of a dungeon. That would be much more interesting and innovative than Fly indoors imo Or have certain dungeons that nescesitate Water Walking indoors (so it's actually useful because you can't Fly instead - they did this for Jump (Hall of the Fire Lord, The Wasp Nest, etc), so why not for Water Walk also). There's also Levitate (like the Vampire spell), which may be used for giving a % chance to avoid ground associated damage (like Fire Spikes, Sparks, traps, triggers, lava floor..).

Of course, a big obstacle in alot of dungeons are traps, triggers, puzzles and secrets. Having Fly indoors would at least nescescitate a completely different look at how these are designed.. It also ruins those cool dungeons where you would be able to see a path higher up that you'll only be able to get to later, or where they have fortresses inside fortresses (MM6 went a little crazy with this in Kriegspire, but it's nonetheless a very memorable dungeon because of it).
Telekenises loses even more of it's value, because now there's even less place to put unatainable items.

Not to mention Fly + Invisiblity inside dungeons is a complete game-breaker, even worse than Lloyd's Beacon ever was.

I prefer the old fashioned way, but I think it could still work.. Just needs radically different kind of dungeons, and thus different dungeon crawl experiences.

Wait..

Unless you were to make Fly possible in certain dungeons only, like the aforement dragon cave for instance, or the plane of air (and in effect, the plane of water also). Certain Sorcerer/Wizard/Archmage/Lich specific places could also have this feature, or huge dungeons similar to VARN.
You could say there isn't enough room to fly, or some evil sorcerers cast a spell on the dungeon so you can't fly there, etc..

[GrayFace]

I agree about fly. It can be allowed in certain dungeons, but not in all. Some dungeons can also have fly turned on by itself, like it is underwater in MM7. Reversed gravity would be cool, but I think it should be done by some triggers in the level, not with a spell.
I think running won't break anything. In some dungeons fast run and Jump can be disabled too.

[tolich]

I think about Crafting skill instead of all these enchanting spells. Crafting require special materials, mostly rare. The probabilty of successful crafting depends on skill level. To craft you must have an item, ingridients, and know the recipe (possibly inside the game, possibly as a player). Without the skill, it's ever impossible to craft, Novice Crafters could use only the simplest of recipes, Expert Crafters can use more advanced recipes, Masters have access to the most powerful recipes without bad side effects. At last, Grand Masters can use the most powerful reciepes, that enourmously boost attributes and skills, however all they have some negative side effect.

[kognefaure]

tolich: amazing, that is a very clever idea!

[Talin_Trollbane]

dont do anything with the dungoens, it was fine the way it was.