HoMM III: Best level 1 creature

[Omega_Destroyer]

That shouldn't dissuade you from voting what you feel is the best unit.

[Kristo]

Go ahead and vote for Gnolls. Nobody agreeing with you hasn't stopped anyone before.

That said, I don't agree with you. They have 4 fewer HP than Centaur Captains and Halberdiers but you only get two more of them per week (30 vs. 28). On paper it seems they would die too quickly to be considered "best level 1 unit." Now, I'll admit I haven't played Fortress much at all. Does it play out differently in practice?

[Muszka]

Gnolls? Their best use in my opinion, is to protect the Lizard Warriors.

It's funny to see, how different some ppl can be. If I stop to think, that 50 sprites have 150 HP, and 28 Ccaptains have 280, and only one speed in minus, than I can hardly think those sprites can be best.
And if I stop to think about any scenario I've played. In the begining, if I have my ore/wood mine guarded by horde/throng of sprites I'm more than happy, with a few magic arrows/lightnings I'm almost done. But if I got lots/horde of Ccaptains it's anothes story.

No way, I like when I have 100-150 sprites in the second week, with Brissa they just like everywhere. But under hit, they melt like butter under a hot knife.

On the other hand I like the Imp => Demon conversion, sometimes I kill them with my Magogs. This way Horned Demons can have chances defeating the Vampire Lords.

[Jolly Joker]

Like first tier creatures are going to absorb that many retaliations. Another thing- ok they can`t absorb retaliations but they can quickly block enemy shooters, can others tier 1 creatures do that? No? If you don`t have full army then you spilt their stacks and they`ll able to block more than one shooters stack or block one of them multiple times.

What context is this scenario in? Is it the final battle against another human player, or the neutral farming phase?

@JollyJoker - Sprites are not a power on their own. They need bodyguards. Without bodyguards they simply die because once you run into a Ranged creature they die so fast it's not funny. If you're claiming that Sprites are awesome against slow walkers, so too are Marksmen, who'll extract terrible tolls - terrible enough that the slow walkers are generally annihilated before they can reach the Marksmen.

If it came to a choice of having 36 Marksmen against 100 Sprites I'll pick the Marksmen anyday. Worst come to worst, just split some 1-Marksmen stacks and use them to bodyguard the main Marksmen stack.

You might just want to play impossible than you would see that you don't need Storm Elementals, or T-Birds (rather than Rocs) or Efreet Sultans (instead of Efreets or simple Cerberi, depending on what you get done).

Of course you need them. You just can't get them, so you make do without them. I don't see your point. On Impossible difficulty they allow the most aggressive play because all the other (far more) aggressive options are ruled out, at least for the first few turns. On any lower difficulty they hardly provide the chance for the most aggressive play. You really should see what 6 Efreet Sultans can do against the map, compared to 200 Sprites.

If you use Marksmenas bodyguards for themselves which would be legal, they will be whittled away against shooters. They will be whittled away against other shooters as well. And they are level 2.
If you wanti to use body guards for Sprites you can use single Sprites as well - and afford a loss of a single Sprites much more easily than the Marksmen. And keep in mind that it wasn't me who talked about slow walkers, please. You can kill a lot more with them
Of course you don't lose much because in game practise you have the hero who can cast immediately due to the high Sprite speed, reducing the damage the Sprites will take against shooters, if they have to attack them.
For the rest, we aren't comparing Efreet Sultans with Sprites here.
Still the question is whether you NEED all that output to reach your goals or not - and clearly you don't - or at least it depends on the map. And there ARE things you cannot do with 6 Efreets (making it necessary to come back): a Naga Bank, for example. Even a Medusa Store might prove costly.

Anyway, since this is a question of a level 1 unit poll, I repeat: If you play Rampart, do you really grade the Centaur Captains up and make use of their good stats early - which you could do, obviously, because the unit is good enough for that. In other words: is there any game situation where you really make use of the Centaur Captains' good stats? Where you depend on them? Where they really make the difference? If not their good stats are a bit irrelevant, right? Actually it's a bit like with the Dwarves - pretty good unit, but you just don't play much with them.

[Muszka]

And there ARE things you cannot do with 6 Efreets (making it necessary to come back): a Naga Bank, for example. Even a Medusa Store might prove costly.

I don't get, what have this to do with the weakness or strenght of the Sprites? Can you rob a Naga Bank or a Medusa Store with 200 Sprites with the same hero, which with 6 efereti couldn't?

[wimfrits]

If you play Rampart, do you really grade the Centaur Captains up and make use of their good stats early

I usually do. In most games on champion, centaur captains give a much needed edge in the first 1-2 weeks. They excellently fill up the gap where grand elves are useless.

As for the poll, I'm torn between centaur captains and sprites. Centaurs are the strongest of the 2 and imo the most useful unit in the first week(s). Sprites have a longer time of use; I can usually rely on sprites solely until getting firebirds

[Jolly Joker]

My point exactly.
You may not know it, but a long time ago I made something like a power rating for all the units (it was a complete one; I included all specials - took a long time to make it).
Here's my Power-rating for SINGLE units:
1. Centaur Cap 4.02
2. Halberdier 3.37
3. Gnoll Marauder 2.58
4. Sprite 2.49
5. Skeleton Warrior 2.44
6. Infernal Trog 2.28
7. Hobgoblin 2.01
8/9. Familiar/Master Gremlin 1.85

Taking into account the actual growth rates, this would be the rating for a full weekly production:
1. Sprites 124.50
2. Centaur Caps 112.56
3. Halberdiers 94.36
4. Infernal Trogs 79.80
5. Gnoll Marauders 77.40
6. Hobgoblins 76.38
7. Skeleton Warriors 73.20
8. Familiars 70.30
9. Master Gremlins 59.20

Two comments on this:
a) Master Gremlins rate so low because on the map you always see them as a combo (only) with a couple of guards and hero support, making them much stronger: the guards mean, that they have more rounds doing full damage, not losing any of their numbers, in effect increasing their power rating.
b) Each Skeleton WARRIOR raised (which is a more difficult process than simply raising a Skeleton) would obviously add to the Skeleton numbers - which isn't happening until much later. You may put in simple Skeletons, though: Power rating for a simple Skeleton is still a good 2.11, meaning the complete weekly production is at 63.30. That leaves 61.20, which means that with 30 Skeletons raised per week you'll reach Sprite level. This is certainly possible later on.

I agree that these numbers as well as gaming experience support what has already been established: depending on what view you take you can make a point for more than one creature here.

[Gaidal Cain]

If you use Marksmenas bodyguards for themselves which would be legal, they will be whittled away against shooters. They will be whittled away against other shooters as well. And they are level 2.

If you wanti to use body guards for Sprites you can use single Sprites as well - and afford a loss of a single Sprites much more easily than the Marksmen. And keep in mind that it wasn't me who talked about slow walkers, please. You can kill a lot more with them

To be honest, I don't see the need of a bodyguard for the sprites. It adds very little in terms of fighting strength to them, unless it can be used to block of some crucial passage and force the enemy to take a long way around.

On the other hand, your statement about shooters is just as valid for sprites (perhaps even more, since you won't get first strike and it's better to have a few units with lots of hp than many with little), unless you get mass haste.

[Banedon]

If you use Marksmenas bodyguards for themselves which would be legal, they will be whittled away against shooters. They will be whittled away against other shooters as well. And they are level 2.
If you wanti to use body guards for Sprites you can use single Sprites as well - and afford a loss of a single Sprites much more easily than the Marksmen. And keep in mind that it wasn't me who talked about slow walkers, please. You can kill a lot more with them
Of course you don't lose much because in game practise you have the hero who can cast immediately due to the high Sprite speed, reducing the damage the Sprites will take against shooters, if they have to attack them.

Sprites will be whittled away against shooters even worse than Marksmen. Don't see your point. I don't see how your single-Sprite stacks are going to die either, unless you're using them to kamikaze shooter stacks - wherupon, if you can reach them with single-Sprite stacks you can reach them with a massed Sprite stack.

And, I don't see how you don't lose much Sprites against shooters. You have a hero who can cast immediately - so what? You need the spell Haste before your Sprites can block shooters immediately, maybe Tactics. What if you don't get the spell?

Still the question is whether you NEED all that output to reach your goals or not - and clearly you don't - or at least it depends on the map. And there ARE things you cannot do with 6 Efreets (making it necessary to come back): a Naga Bank, for example. Even a Medusa Store might prove costly.

There're also things you can't do with 200 Sprites that you can easily with 6 Efreet Sultans. You'll have no problems defeating a throng of Marksmen with the Sultans, but you attempt that with Sprites, you'll take humongous damage and maybe even lose. Don't see your point.

Also, if you don't need 6 Efreet Sultans what's stopping you from splitting to 3-3 and then adventuring in two directions?

Anyway, since this is a question of a level 1 unit poll, I repeat: If you play Rampart, do you really grade the Centaur Captains up and make use of their good stats early - which you could do, obviously, because the unit is good enough for that. In other words: is there any game situation where you really make use of the Centaur Captains' good stats? Where you depend on them? Where they really make the difference? If not their good stats are a bit irrelevant, right? Actually it's a bit like with the Dwarves - pretty good unit, but you just don't play much with them.

Well of course. If it weren't for your Centaur Captains you'd be easily neutralized on the adventure map by another human player. Just think about it - if you ran into Stronghold and his 9 Thunderbirds in the second week, without your Centaur Captains you'll be ruthlessly annihilated. Do you mean instead that you can do with Centaurs what you can do with Centaur Captains? Probably, but that's just a testimony to how good Centaurs are. Nonetheless, if resources run scarce and you can't zip up the TeCH tree as fast as you'd like then there's no reason not to get the Centaur Captains.

And I still want to see how you'd respond to the fact that Centaur Captains can be used to absorb retaliation late-game while Sprites cannot.

As for the poll, I'm torn between centaur captains and sprites. Centaurs are the strongest of the 2 and imo the most useful unit in the first week(s). Sprites have a longer time of use; I can usually rely on sprites solely until getting firebirds

You should add more wimfrits, Conflux is entirely capable of deploying Firebirds by the first week (second week latest), which means...

[Jolly Joker]

It was an answer specifically to this claim:

"@JollyJoker - Sprites are not a power on their own. They need bodyguards. Without bodyguards they simply die because once you run into a Ranged creature they die so fast it's not funny... Worst come to worst, just split some 1-Marksmen stacks and use them to bodyguard the main Marksmen stack."

Which makes no sense (because the bodyguards don't guard against shooters)

Anyway, I don't see the need for bodyguards for Sprites either and wrote that a couple of time already.
If you compare Marksmen with Sprites you'll see that the total HPs of a weekly production are not that different: shooters have in general very low HPs for their level (except Storms, of course). The difference is the speed: speed 6 for Marksmen and Speed 9 for Sprites (and with 9 you will go first against all shooters except Titans) allowing the hero to become active) which obviously makes up for the 30 less HPs Sprites have compared to Marksmen. It might be interesting to note as well, that the average damage output of a weekly Marksmen contingent against a unit with defense 6 is 90 - FULL damage mind you! This would be halved against units out of range -, the same average damage output a weekly production of Sprites have.
Note that against shooters your Marksmen will suffer very obviously as well: you'd loathe to attack a pack of Grand Elves with your 15 rushed Marksmen in week 1 - they go first, so take only 12 Grand Elves, 3 stacks of 4: they will do 62 damage on average, killing 6 Marksmen, leaving only 9 , even if the hero can salvage something out of this, losses would be unacceptable since you'd lose basically cour complete Marksmen force.
Your 60 rushed Sprites look different, though. You go first, which will give you a hero hit. If you have Ciele, she will kill 4 right away, no matter the day. On day 3 and onwards ANY magic Flux hero could kill more on every other than impossible level. Anyway, that leaves 8 Elves, killing only 14 Sprites on average. And that's it. That's the only shot the Elves get because after that shot they are dead.
While you'd still hate to do do it, you COULD do it, if necessary, still retaining combat ability.
Which is not bad, considering that we talk about an upgrade level 1 creature compared with an upgraded level 2 plus guards.
Simple and easy.

[Banedon]

I meant bodyguards in the sense of facing creatures other than shooters (eg. Vampire Lords).

As for the scenario you wrote, I can point out multiple problems:

1. You really shouldn't have a mere 15 Marksmen in the first few turns. From the Archer's Tower you get 9, from Valeska you get ~20 (can't remember the precise numbers, but should be higher than this), from other heroes you hire you may get some more. 40 Marksmen seems rather more realistic to me.
2. If Castle really wanted whatever the Grand Elves were guarding he can easily get them. Combine some armies from the other heroes he buys and then take down the Elves by brute force. It'll hurt no doubt, but it's a price everyone must pay for fighting the Elves.
3. You write that you're comparing level 1 units against level 2 units with guards. But that's not right - you haven't even used the Marksmen's guards. What happened to the Imps and Gremlins and Centaurs that the Castle player can and should have? Don't forget these units are disposable - they have no use later in the game anyway, since you can't replenish their numbers. Worst come to worst, just hand the Marksmen to a transporter hero and kill the Elves.
4. You picked a situation really biased in favour of the Sprites. Suppose instead you're up against 12 Vampires (or Wolf Raiders, or Dragon Flies, etc). The moment you're up against creatures you can't evade forever with Sprites, or those which you can't kill immediately, the Marksmen are much better.
5. I think you come really close to seeing what Efreet Sultans can do for you early-game, if rushed. 2 Efreet Sultans would be sufficient to destroy the 12 Grand Elves with no casualties.

[Jolly Joker]

Talking about special heroes again. Two random Castle heroes will give you around 20 Marksmen, still not good.

For the rest - who cares? We are comparing level one creatures here, not more, not what a town can field wasting money.
So let's put this into perspective: I - and not I alone - say that Sprites CAN survive on their own and indeed DO survice on their own because people playing Conflux using them all the time that way. Whether 6 Efreet Sultans are better or not is completely irrelevant - in fact they should be quite a lot better considering the price and the costs getting to them.

[Banedon]

So let's put this into perspective: I - and not I alone - say that Sprites CAN survive on their own and indeed DO survice on their own because people playing Conflux using them all the time that way.

How do you survive battles against Wolf Raiders?
Vampire Lords?
Dragon Flies?
Centaur Captains?
Any creature fast enough that you cannot dance around them forever, nor decimate in two attacks?
Another hero?

[Jolly Joker]

Are you kidding?
Centaur Caps? I get two hits with the Sprites and the hero before they actually can hit themselves and as opposed to one person here I make sure my heroes can give magic support, especially if I start with heroes that come with 3/3 in power and knowledge and a magic skill, making Magic Arrow cheap and powerful from the beginning, but depending on the hero you have other spells are quite powerful as well. Additionally, with the bulk of Centaurs it depends on the battle map - and H 3 battle maps are notorious for their rifts putting them at a severe disadvantage.
You have to be careful on grass, though, because of the possibility of a double move right at start, and the best you can do against that is placing the sprites in an outside slot.
Anyway, I already wrote in another post that Dragonflies are extremely difficult, simply because of their speed, and here it depends on their mass what to do. Each Fly will do an average of 8 points against the Sprites, if the hero has no additional defense, which is a lot. Without Tactics I wouldn't do it willingly (there are heroes starting with Tactics). However, the beauty (or the abomination, whatever the perspective) with Conflux is, that on every other than impossible diff you can use TWO creeping heroes, one with Sprites and another one, a bit later, with the Storms, if needed, wanted, and feasible and if you REALLY want to rush.
Wolf Raiders are as easy as Centaur Caps - same speed, same HPs, bulk.
Vampire Lords depend. You don't HAVE to take them with Sprites. On grass you can take several within week 1. To tell the truth, I find Wraiths are worse because of the mana drain and the usually higher numbers they come in. A victory is often costly if you are 3 days or more from town and no well is in sight.
Note that I talk about something like day 2 here. Not day 8.

[Jolly Joker]

Another interesting point is cost effectivity. I'll add this as a third table after a repeat of the first 2.

1. Centaur Cap 4.02
2. Halberdier 3.37
3. Gnoll Marauder 2.58
4. Sprite 2.49
5. Skeleton Warrior 2.44
6. Infernal Trog 2.28
7. Hobgoblin 2.01
8/9. Familiar/Master Gremlin 1.85

Taking into account the actual growth rates, this would be the rating for a full weekly production:
1. Sprites 124.50
2. Centaur Caps 112.56
3. Halberdiers 94.36
4. Infernal Trogs 79.80
5. Gnoll Marauders 77.40
6. Hobgoblins 76.38
7. Skeleton Warriors 73.20
8. Familiars 70.30
9. Master Gremlins 59.20

Two comments on this:
a) Master Gremlins rate so low because on the map you always see them as a combo (only) with a couple of guards and hero support, making them much stronger: the guards mean, that they have more rounds doing full damage, not losing any of their numbers, in effect increasing their power rating.
b) Each Skeleton WARRIOR raised (which is a more difficult process than simply raising a Skeleton) would obviously add to the Skeleton numbers - which isn't happening until much later. You may put in simple Skeletons, though: Power rating for a simple Skeleton is still a good 2.11, meaning the complete weekly production is at 63.30. That leaves 61.20, which means that with 30 Skeletons raised per week you'll reach Sprite level. This is certainly possible later on.

1. Sprite 8.30
2. Master Gremlin 4.63
3. Halberdier 4.49
4. Centaur Cap 4.47
5. Hobgoblin 4.02 (the simple Goblin is 4.25)
6. Gnoll Marauder 3.69
7. Infernal Trog 3.51
8. Skeleton Warrior (the simple Skeleton is 3.52)
9. Familiar 3.08

If you take simple Skeletons and add a number due to raising effectivity goes up of course (up to infinite if you don't hire them at all).
Still, this speaks volumes. Even with a price of 50 instead of 30 Sprites would still be best in cost-effectivity.

[Banedon]

What if the Centaur Captains split into three stacks?

But that's far too much digressing. I'll put in what I experience. If you walk around with just Sprites, you'll hold decently against many creatures, but not all. There're many stacks out there who'll bleed you, but fail to bleed a more conventional (and stable) Grand Elves + Centaurs or Marksmen + Pikemen combination. Take 25 Marksmen and 40 Pikemen - easily achievable on day 2 - and pit them against 20 Vampire Lords, they're going to make it through with some dead Pikemen. But with Pikemen being the insignificant cannon fodder they are, them dying won't mean much. The same 25 Marksmen + 40 Pikemen can easily overcome 40 Centaur Captains, or Wraiths, or even Rocs and Minotaurs. Can an army of just Sprites do the same?

Note that I talk about something like day 2 here. Not day 8.

Consider these two armies:

Castle - 25 Marksmen + 40 Pikemen, more Marksmen if playing with Valeska (which I tend to do with Castle). Doable on day 2.
Rampart - 20 Grand Elves + 40 Centaurs starting with Ivor (which is probably the best Rampart hero to begin with with Kyre banned). Doable on day 3.

Certainly these two are going to be more stable than an army with just Sprites. They're just two races, but then every race can survive the first week at decent pace by combining hero armies. An army of, say, 70 Skeleton Warriors will still do decently against most stacks. As would one with 24 Archers, 26 Pikeman, 36 Gremlins, 3 Stone Golems and 1 Stone Gargoyle.

I'm not saying Sprites are bad creatures. It's just that they aren't Conflux's most important creature, and they are almost insignificant in final clashes.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm not saying Sprites are bad creatures. It's just that they aren't Conflux's most important creature, and they are almost insignificant in final clashes.

For that statement every comparison with other towns is irrelevant. That leaves Conflux as such.
On impossible difficulty Sprites (alone) allow fast expansion. Sure, there ARE problems - but you'll have the same or worse problems with other towns and other towns will be slower at that.
On every OTHER difficulty Sprites and the extremely durable, fast (and with Bless extremely powerful) Storms allow independent operating with two main heroes and a rapid expansion that is unrivalled, because even the amount of Storms you can field on day 4 at the latest (with Sprite upgrade built immediately and level 2 dwelling not pre-built) is amazing, because your heroes should come with something like 3 or 4 which will give you something like 13 Storms - a nice force with a hero who can support them.
There is no law that prohibits using Storm Elementals and Sprites together, but it's not necessary.

[Pol]

(and with Bless extremely powerful)

That's right. Conflux is getting most of the Bless here's not the other town on which it would been having so high impact.
(Fortress is close second)

However judging best 1st level units purely on its own, means without Bless, and CC are killers. This is expected outcome:

Of course that is without nice strategy for Sprites to Steal Attacks. But that's the point. CC are hugely usable against much better units and can absorb theirs counter attacks. Sprites cannot. The balance line for Sprites is much more tight, and as a result it's much easier to broke theirs fast sweep strategy. (They are however truly best for that.)

[Jolly Joker]

Pardon?
The Sprites get 2 attacks in a row because of their superior speed which has nothing to do with the hero. If you put in 50 of them against 28 Caps they will simply kill an average of 19 , leaving 9. Then those 9 will do an average damage of 26, but let's say 27, killing 9 as well. Then it's Sprites again, with 41 killing another 8, maybe only 7, losing 1 or at most 2 before it's curtains.

That means, one weekly population of Sprites (50) will kill one weekly population of Caps WITHOUT hero help with ease losing 20% of their numbers only.
Losses are 10 Sprites, 28 Caps.

No, wait a sec. A duel with them always goes 2 attacks for the Sprites followed by one for the Cap. One Sprite will do 1.9 damage per attack. A cap does 3 damage on average per attack.
So if two weekly populations fight, the Sprites lose 9, annihilating the Caps.
If 50 Sprites fight instead 41 Caps, it will go 19 lost Caps, 22 lost Sprites, 10 lost Caps, 12 lost Sprites, 6 lost Caps, 6 lost Sprites, 4 lost caps, 2 lost Sprites, Caps dead.
With 42 Caps the Caps win. That's the actual ratio here, so it should be 100 Sprites = 83 Caps (38 Caps, 45 Sprites, 20 Caps, 25 Sprites, 12 Caps, 13 Sprites, 6 Caps, 7 Sprites, 4 caps, 3 Sprites, 2 Caps, 1 Sprite Caps dead, leaving 5 or so, with 84 Caps killing the Sprites.

[wimfrits]

You should add more wimfrits, Conflux is entirely capable of deploying Firebirds by the first week (second week latest), which means...

You still cannot deploy them the minute you get them. Their low stats (and conflux' lack of a decent retaliation stealer ) means that on higher difficulties you still have to rely on other units for some time.