Geography of Enroth

[Avonu]

I don't have much time, so only two things to explain (later I try post detailed explanation);

1. Forces of Dome and Ancients - Forces are another name of Ancients (they are called that on Terra). In MM3 manual is mentioned that Forced of Dome, after battle between humanoids and Elementals Lords takes humanoids land from they original location and "placed" on this new planet (after long voyage through Void) and also broken land into islands. At the end of MM3 we discovered that Ancients sends VARNs to this planets.
So add two to two... (and you have five ).

2. Date from MM8 manual - it is not the first time when dates from manual and from game are diferrent. So we can assume that day and month can be correct but year not - if game started in 1172 AS, then probably this letter to uncle is from 1171.
And about text - it describes MM8's main hero, who was hired to escort merchant caravan to Dagger Waund Islands. MM8 begin with vulcan eruption on DWI caused by creating Escaton's Crystal (IIRC in manual is mentioned that when crystal arised in Ravenshore, portals to planes where instanly opened/created).

[Kareeah Indaga]

I know, but who's to say that Elementals have to rule over the Planes? Humans, Elves and the like are capable of gaining total mastery over elemental forces, just look at Tarnum - he mastered all four, and even with his age-gained intelligence and wisdom, his Barbarian blood alone made him a poor candidate for such a feat.

I suppose it’s possible, but I really doubt it. Even if they needed replacement lords, and could pick someone who wasn’t an Elemental, why? That’d be like if England picked out a person from Korea to be Regent because the queen vanished (though the analogy doesn’t really work because England has Parliament…still…)

Moreover:

one of many called here to protect this world from those who would see it harmed

I have come from the Elemental Plane of Earth and have been sent to protect this world from those who would see it harm.

“Called” and “sent” imply that there’s someone else in charge giving them orders. Also…

My fellow Conflux heroes, Ciele and Erdamon, have secreted these tools away in a far off land.

If they were elemental Lords—even stand-in lords—wouldn’t he have introduced them as such, not just as heroes?

I just think it’s really a stretch, is all. Easier for Escaton to just kidnap Acwalander, Pyrannaste, Shalwend and Gralkor after the war…it shouldn’t take THAT long, considering he rose the Crystal in what, a few seconds? He only would have had to take them on one at a time, and they may have thrown a lot of power into getting all those Confluxes up during the war and therefore been weakened.

And then if she really had met the four original Elemental Lords I'm sure she would have said something about them in DotD...

She didn’t, but Roland did.

Catherine and I have had dealings with these “lords” of the elemental planes. I’ve never trusted them, and now it seems I am right. They were our recent allies against the Kreegans, but a few months later we find ourselves at war with them here! In both cases I understand neither their reasons for helping or hindrance. They are fickle beings at best…“treacherous” is perhaps a better word for them.

Escaton was being tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks.

You’re welcome.

I had literally wondered if Escaton had really phoned up Gralkor and said "party at my plane"...

I love how you put that! I’d ask if I could sig it, but I never remember to use my sig. Hilarious, in any case.

…Blast. I left my MM8 manual at home and I can’t find the pdf version, or I’d try to see if it was possible for that letter to have been written after Escaton summoned his crystal.

I'm reading it right now, and it does say 26 November 1172. Apart from the obvious fact that the game starts 11 months beforehand, it seems very possible that it was written on that date, as there's no mention of Escaton or his crystal to dispute this. However, due to the game's starting time plus the lack of any mention of the player's supposed adventures up to and around that time, it must have been a typo ala the M&M 6 manual which claims that Roland went on his quest to destroy the Kreegans 10 years before they arrived.

…I kinda meant ‘after the events of DotD’, not the game’s timeframe, to see if there was any hint of ‘hi Uncle, I know the world just went straight to the Abyss in a beer bottle but I wanted you to know I’m still alive…’ in it. Probably not though, and the typo explanation is easier to fit, anyway.

I wonder whether Grumba and Wern made it to Paradise after the Ancestors were reunited? Or were their souls lost in Oblivion forever? Their deaths are a little more tragic when you think about it like that...

I hope so…I mean, I’d expect they got stuck there for a little while, but I hope the Ancestors fished them out. Hmm…I know: maybe next time I get a chance to play Elder Scrolls IV I’ll make two new characters and name one Grumba and the other Wern. Suddenly Oblivion doesn’t seem so bad as fates go.

His physical description also mentions a neatly-trimmed beard... not really a Psychic Elemental feature, eh?

Not really an Air Elemental feature, either.

I can't see why he would want to trick Queen Catherine into triggering the world's destruction by forcing Gelu to kill Lucifer and later inherit the Blade. He was very passionate about Gelu's fate, obviously he was either really trying to prevent the Reckoning, or cause it...

I think he had good intentions:

I am a walker of the planes, a seeker of knowledge, a protector of lives worth saving.

There are others, loved ones and those trusted deeply, who now face that same crossroad. They are beginning to choose a path, which may be divergent from yours.

Choose wisely Catherine, for if you do not help those whom you love and trust, I fear you will know much grief.

He has a destiny to fulfill that no one must be allowed to interfere with, for if he is to fall,

--and he is!--

everything shall turn to chaos. Oceans will boil, the ground shall swallow entire cities, and everyone will die a horrifying death.

I think what happened is that he was trying to discreetly warn her (and for whatever reason couldn’t just come out and say ‘Catherine, Gelu’s going to blow up the world.’), but in true fantasy style she misinterpreted his hints and visions and just thought Roland was going to go on a rampage (not an unreasonable assumption under the circumstances), so didn’t think to tell Gelu to watch out for the crossroads too.

[Corlagon]

I suppose it’s possible, but I really doubt it. Even if they needed replacement lords, and could pick someone who wasn’t an Elemental, why?

Think of it like the Shrouded Isles in Price of Loyalty - the world of Enroth needs a sentient being (the Ascendant) to ensure that the powers of magic are maintained wisely and well. In a similar way, I'd guess that the Planes need a Lord to ensure that their delicate balance doesn't descend into total chaos. Tamar was going on about destiny and fate, and I would guess simply that destiny and fate would have decided that he and Ciele, though not Elementals, were the ideal embodiments of their respective elements to inherit Shalwend and Acwalander's roles.

That’d be like if England picked out a person from Korea to be Regent because the queen vanished (though the analogy doesn’t really work because England has Parliament…still…)

Weirder things have happened to royalty in the series. Catherine became Queen of a country she'd never even previously been to. Enroth was (officialy) ruled by a child for ten years. The Deyjan throne was succeeded by five different people in a space of three years, one of whom wasn't even able to use the power of speech. Gavin Magnus ruled Bracada for over eight hundred years. Madness!

“Called” and “sent” imply that there’s someone else in charge giving them orders.

Ignissa: "Four years ago a powerful Wizard summoned Ignissa to this plane. Unable to return she wandered Antagarich until she felt called to the Conflux."

Erdamon: "Pulled from his slumber to aid the Conflux, Erdamon welcomes the battle to rid the world of the Kreegans."

Labetha: "Born poor, Labetha's parents were slaughtered peasantry during the Restoration wars. Taken by dendroids and brought into their service in AvLee, her power over the earth developed quickly. When she felt the Conflux calling, she answered quickly."

Inteus: "One night, he felt a calling and left his profession. Now he serves the Conflux."

Aenain: "For centuries he has worked hard to overcome the perception of his imperfection. For his dilligence and dedication to Air Magic, Aenain was called to the Conflux."

Gelare: "Always calm, reflective and serene on the outside, Gelare did not question his calling to the Conflux."

My guess is that 'the Conflux' itself is some sort of magical, universal law beyond anybody's control which decides that the elemental planes must have disciples to maintain their integral balance. I would guess that the same law called Tamar, Ciele, Erdamon and Fiur to fill the vacant roles as temporary Elemental Lords.

If they were elemental Lords—even stand-in lords—wouldn’t he have introduced them as such, not just as heroes?

Of course he would have, but then we have the old excuse... lack of seamless continuity between Might and Magic and HoMaM. It's not like we can pretend that NWC always intended to have the Elemental Lords imprisoned at some stage in the first place. Let's not forget that the story of AB, great as it may be, was designed and written under huge pressure since the original story was thrown in the bin.

Of course, I don't rule out the possibility that Ciele and Erdamon weren't Elemental Lords, and I wouldn't even be debating this if Tamar hadn't specifically said he was the Lord of Air. It's just that it fits perfectly - Tamar is the Air Lord, and Ciele, Erdamon and Fiur are the only characters we are aware of who could be the other three (not counting those weirdo Elementalists in the four DotD Planes).

I just think it’s really a stretch, is all. Easier for Escaton to just kidnap Acwalander, Pyrannaste, Shalwend and Gralkor after the war…it shouldn’t take THAT long, considering he rose the Crystal in what, a few seconds? He only would have had to take them on one at a time, and they may have thrown a lot of power into getting all those Confluxes up during the war and therefore been weakened.

I simply can't believe that Escaton, mighty as he was, could have captured all four Elemental Lords, on his own, facing thousands of elemental creatures in extremely unfamiliar terrains without an army to speak of (apart from ragtag Ether Lords and such) in under two or three months. I know he had that strange energy shield, but he was killed when his crystal exploded and his castle fell on him, so why didn't it work for him then? And btw does anybody know what the little spidery device (that crawls out of Escaton when he dies) could be? I've been wondering about it for a while now...

She didn’t, but Roland did.

This is a pretty peculiar statement from Roland. The Elemental Lords never instigated any wars, it was Escaton who captured them and caused all of that mayhem in Jadame. It is also reasonably possible that the Ironfists thought that it was Tamar, Ciele, Fiur and Erdamon who were betraying them, and didn't know anything about the true Elemental Lords.

I love how you put that! I’d ask if I could sig it, but I never remember to use my sig. Hilarious, in any case.

Sig it if you want, no problem, and there's plenty more where that came from!

…I kinda meant ‘after the events of DotD’, not the game’s timeframe, to see if there was any hint of ‘hi Uncle, I know the world just went straight to the Abyss in a beer bottle but I wanted you to know I’m still alive…’ in it. Probably not though, and the typo explanation is easier to fit, anyway.

No such references, unfortunately. It really must have been a typo.

I hope so…I mean, I’d expect they got stuck there for a little while, but I hope the Ancestors fished them out. Hmm…I know: maybe next time I get a chance to play Elder Scrolls IV I’ll make two new characters and name one Grumba and the other Wern. Suddenly Oblivion doesn’t seem so bad as fates go.

Nice idea, don't forget King Targor and Addar. Btw I wonder whatever became of Skizzik and Nilidon? I'd guess that Nilidon returned to AvLee or wherever he came from but Skizzik had no real home to speak of apart from the Fiery Moon. Maybe he remained behind to defend the World Tree alongside Targor's clan?

Not really an Air Elemental feature, either.

Thus he's definitely human, or using illusions to mask his true form ala Sandro. Besides, he disappears with a flash of lightning, talks in whispers and conjures gentle winds when he returns to Queen Catherine. With these descriptions, surely he has some level of Air Magic expertise in him.

I think what happened is that he was trying to discreetly warn her (and for whatever reason couldn’t just come out and say ‘Catherine, Gelu’s going to blow up the world.’), but in true fantasy style she misinterpreted his hints and visions and just thought Roland was going to go on a rampage (not an unreasonable assumption under the circumstances), so didn’t think to tell Gelu to watch out for the crossroads too.

So he's certainly benevolent, thus why would he lie about being an Elemental Lord? He just doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd tell a blatant lie in order to get someone's attention, crucial or not.

While I don't want to contest Tamar's integrity, there's still the fact that Sandro, Tarnum, and Kilgor had all interfered with Gelu's destiny, and Tamar did little or nothing to stop them. And surely if Tarnum had heard the Prophecy of the Twin Swords around then, Tamar would have been aware of it too, and as Gelu was half-Vori he'd certainly have known that giving him Armageddon's Blade would have been an invitation for him to destroy or claim its equal and opposite, thus blowing up the world.

I would counter my own argument (don't worry, I'm not insane yet ) by assuming that Tamar was simply trying to buy enough time for the natives to allow whatever conjured the Axeoth portals to be prepared in time.

Either he was a hugely foolish idiot soothsayer with a grain of truth in him, or the true saviour of Colony's entire population.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

The Deyjan throne was succeeded by five different people in a space of three years, one of whom wasn't even able to use the power of speech.

Really?
Let me attempt to list them chronologically

Sandro (H3: Shadow of Death)
Villmar (H3: Shadow of Death, H3: Restoration of Erathia)
King Gryphonheart (H3: Restoration of Erathia)
Archibald Ironfist (MM7)
Kastore (MM7)

So, who is it who can't speak? Vilmar? Gryphonheart?

[Corlagon]

You're almost exactly right, though Sandro was never King as such, even though everyone knew that he was the brains of the operation. I was talking about the unnamed guy Finneas killed and succeeded with Sandro's help, he gives Finneas a crown in the closing of 'Rise of the Necromancer', and is killed later in the campaigns.

Yeah, I was talking about Gryphonheart, never once does he actually talk. Finneas can speak, he is chatting away to Sandro in the opening cutscene of the fourth 'Spectre of Power' scenario. If you listen closely, you hear that Sandro goes ''mm hmm'' then Finneas says ''That would make sense, yes, I agree.'' Sandro replies with ''of course'', Finneas goes ''mm hmm'' and they loop the same phrases. A lot of agreeing going on there.

[Avonu]

Elementals are the physical manifestaions of the elements. Elements don't just create worlds out of the blue. Same difference. And whatever, they created the world, and that's a fact.

I don't know if I understood what do you mean, so correct me if I am wrong.

The epic [legend of the mysterious conception of the isles] was written in three parts and the fragment he [Wildabar town elder] gave to me was from the first, in which is contained an amount of the bird of the isles out of great battle between powerful lords of the four elements who used fierce storms to fight for supreme control of the Void, a place where there was no land, no sky or ocean. Water and Fire and Air and Earth met in this empty Void to fight for the right to fill it with their presence, but so matched were they in this battle that none could defeat the others, nor could any stop fighting lest the balance be upset and he be overrun by the others. They had become locked in an eternal war none could turn away from. And as the war raged on through the decades, in the midts of the Void where the fallout of the mighty storms gathered and settled, a rich land become to develop. From where, no one knows, but beast appeared to graze the fields of the new land and take refuge in its forests and caverns. Little notice did the Elemental Lords pay to these dump beasts for there was little threat in their roaming. They were seen as nothing more than the flies that gather around a fallen animal. So the war raged on with intensifying storms that added to the richness of the budding land.

But then a new creature mysteriously appeared in the Void, not dump like the beasts,but cleaver in ways of cultivating the raw loam of the battlefield futher into a rich provider of food and shelter. Difficult and costly through it was in the midst of the fourius storms of battle, a continent was forged in the misty Void.

[describes of races of Isles of Terra]

With the arrived of these conquerors of land the Elemental Lords realized that while they fought amoung themselves the very prize for which they were slain was being taken away from them by little mortal beings who in their eyes were no better than the dumb beasts. Each would try to vanquish the mortals with great storm, but because they could not too much of their force from the war the mortals were able to withstand them. In fact, the Elementals were less severe than the effects of the war itself, so the Elementals had to find another way to purge the Void of these intruders. So an agreement was made to halt the fighting for one day and devote all their powers to create one big temest of such destructive power that none could withstand it for even an hour.

Air gathered together the strongest of its wind to blow the sands of Earth with such force as to tear away the flesh from mortal bone. And Water prepered a flood to wash the fallen mortals to the center of the Void where Fire would take bake the mire into solid stone. Even combined in total unity the mortals could not survive a day of such torrent. So little hope was there that in the darkest hours before the great destruction all merely stayed in they doomed homes and helplessness in their hearts make the greatest cry for mercy any world has ever know

End of part 1

If I read this correct, Elementals created world "out of blue".

But Might and Magic VIII begins on 1 January 1172. Don't tell me that Escaton summoned his Crystal after that date, because he definitely didn't, manual or no manual.

Game mechanics - isn't that strange that all Might and Magic games started 1st day of first month?
Well, I posted earlier what I think of this date from manual.

The Elemental Lords were not actually given names in Masters of the Elements apart from "The Air Lord, The Fire Lord" etc. They looked very like the ones in DotD in the opening video, but they weren't imprisoned at that time anyway, seeing as MotE takes place hundreds of years before AB (I'm assuming that Fiery Moon takes place after MotE).

Well, MotE can be in any time between Conquest of the Underworld and H3. We can only assumed when it fit the best.

And if we go by my theories, the four secondary Elemental Lords were in charge during Armageddon's Blade while the originals were imprisoned. Tamar clearly states that he is the Elemental Lord of Air, not Shalwend.

I don't think that "second" Lords were chosen. Not even in one MM/HoMM game were any info about that air, fire, water and earth elementals have another ruler than these four from MM2/8.

Thank you but I have read all of it and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Kreegans were on Colony when Escaton arrived to summon his Crystal.

And line from this picture (second text)?
"I was called when Kreegans still lived on yours world." - or something like that (plus/minis mistekes from person who translated game).
Yes, when he "arrived" the Kreegan were defeted (destroyed) but when he was called, the Kreegan still lived and were serious threat.

Quoted from Tarnum: "These Demons believed in nothing but destruction. Honor meant nothing to them. Wherever they went, I imagined Skizzik's kind turning every world into a copy of this Fiery Moon."

Demons (from myths) are very often described as beings of destruction. And they want to establish Hell on Earth (or maybe I read to much comics ). Also fact, that the Kreegan are called demons because they "are like demons from legends" is also maybe proof that demons in minds of people of Enroth are destructive beings and wanted turn Enroth into hell. So if someone called Fiery Monn's Demons that, and describe them as "belived in destruction" tit not neccessary mean that they are the Kreegan. In MM1-5 they are also Demons and Devils and they don't seem to be the Kreegan (on the other hand, who knows what they really are? )
I hope that you understood what I wanted to say.

From the English version: "Inferno towns can be found in Erathian regions blighted by the emergence of the underworld on the surface." In "A Devilish Plan" we learn that the Kreegans dwell in volcanoes as well as large sci-fi hives. Volcanoes are emergences of the underworld on the planet's surface. That explains that.

Thanks for description but I have one question about "underworld":

The Underworld is a place in religion and mythology where the souls of the recently departed go.

And what about Conquest of the Underworld - they were also demons. So, demons in Inferno can be from Underworld, not neccesary have connection to the Kreegan.

Melian was in Enroth, and the World Tree was an entire ocean away. Tarnum and his allies dealt with the Kreegans before she/he had any reasonable chance to make any appearance.

No, he was suprised that Ironfists defeated "devils".

Quoted from Escaton: "As far as I'm able to feel such, I am amazed that your world was able to eliminate its Kreegan infestation. They were quite a bit more... advanced than you. The king and queen of Enroth must be strategists of the highest order. Too bad that they were not able to finish their task sooner."

"The king and queen of Enroth must be strategists of the highest order" - it sound to like that king and queen of Enroth defeated the Kreegan. Why he mentioned them if he talked about Tarnum expedition to the Fiery Moon?

That’d be like if England picked out a person from Korea to be Regent because the queen vanished (though the analogy doesn’t really work because England has Parliament…still…)

Weirder things have happened to royalty in the series. Catherine became Queen of a country she'd never even previously been to. Enroth was (officialy) ruled by a child for ten years.

Ten years ruler is nothing weird in history. There were many rulers at that age - always there was regent to rule in name of the person on throne until mature age. In MM6 you also have regent.
But human or elf as Elemental Lord? I don't think so, esspecially after I read story from MM3 manual.

I just think it’s really a stretch, is all. Easier for Escaton to just kidnap Acwalander, Pyrannaste, Shalwend and Gralkor after the war…it shouldn’t take THAT long, considering he rose the Crystal in what, a few seconds? He only would have had to take them on one at a time, and they may have thrown a lot of power into getting all those Confluxes up during the war and therefore been weakened.

Exactly.
Corlagon, you forgot about one think - Escaton was Ancients' Ultimate Weapon (as I called him) - he have to clean plagued planet as fast as he can - he must stop the Kreegan from growing and setting run for another planet. So if Escaton "invited" EL during Fiery Moon campaign, it takes him few hundreds years to "clean" Enroth and it is too much time for Kreegan to set run for another planet. So he would miss his orders. And Enroth probably wasn't only planet "visited" by the Kreegan so he couldn't prepearing a plan to destroy Devils which take few hundreds years to end.


BTW - I have one question - what means "Deathknell"? Archibald named that in his journal former king of Deyja (Vilmar) who died in "accident" when Gryphonheart was animated? At first I thought that was name of king but from RoE and SoD we knows what this king real name was.

[Secret_Holder]

Deathknell is problably just inconsistency at the NWC writing team.
But about the name:
According to Websters:

Knell
–noun 1. the sound made by a bell rung slowly, esp. for a death or a funeral.
2. a sound or sign announcing the death of a person or the end, extinction, failure, etc., of something: the knell of parting day.
3. any mournful sound.
–verb (used without object) 4. to sound, as a bell, esp. a funeral bell.
5. to give forth a mournful, ominous, or warning sound.
–verb (used with object) 6. to proclaim or summon by, or as if by, a bell.

[Origin: bef. 950; (n.) ME knel, OE cynll; (v.) ME knellen, knyllen, OE cynllan; c. ON knylla to beat, strike; akin to D knal bang, knallen to bang, G Knall explosion, knallen to explode]

So the name is quite fitting eh?

[Kareeah Indaga]

I don’t know if they ever came out and said anything about it, but I’d assume it was a nickname/title taken by or given to Finneas Vilmar to stoke his ego. (Remember how Emilia got the last name “Nighthaven”?)

Alternatively, maybe it was the name of the previous king, the one before Vilmar, and Archi never found out he got deposed. (Doubt that, though. Archibald was/is a pretty smart guy, I’d expect he’d have found out about that within the year between his release and the entry he mentions Deathknell in.)

[Avonu]

Thanks but I remember than someone used full "deathknell" as sentence in some post abord CH or HC. If I only remeber where it was...

Well, I think that this "nickname" was given to Vilmar by Archibald - what really Archie thought about former king of Deyja and his "skills".

Alternatively, maybe it was the name of the previous king, the one before Vilmar, and Archi never found out he got deposed

The guild leader and king of Deyja, Deathknell, sought to take the Erathian throne by assassinating Gryphonheart and then reanimating him as a lich, bound to his service. Well, he got as far as the reanimation, but the binding did not take. Instead, the lich killed Deathknell. Now Erathia and Deyja have a new king and the guild has a new leader.

[Corlagon]

If I read this correct, Elementals created world "out of blue".

I did say 'Elements', not 'Elementals'...

Game mechanics - isn't that strange that all Might and Magic games started 1st day of first month?
Well, I posted earlier what I think of this date from manual.

Yes it is strange. What a peculiar coincidence!

Well, MotE can be in any time between Conquest of the Underworld and H3. We can only assumed when it fit the best.

Assumptions are the basis for most of this debate. But I don't think MotE could really have happened any time near the events of Heroes III. The Elemental Confluxes were completely alien to the inhabitants of Colony during AB, so surely they'd have had to be away from the planet for hundreds of years for everyone to forget about them and experience surprise upon their return.

I don't think that "second" Lords were chosen. Not even in one MM/HoMM game were any info about that air, fire, water and earth elementals have another ruler than these four from MM2/8.

Uhh... apart from Armageddon's Blade, where Tamar clearly calls himself the Elemental Lord of Air!

Demons (from myths) are very often described as beings of destruction. And they want to establish Hell on Earth (or maybe I read to much comics ). Also fact, that the Kreegan are called demons because they "are like demons from legends" is also maybe proof that demons in minds of people of Enroth are destructive beings and wanted turn Enroth into hell. So if someone called Fiery Monn's Demons that, and describe them as "belived in destruction" tit not neccessary mean that they are the Kreegan. In MM1-5 they are also Demons and Devils and they don't seem to be the Kreegan (on the other hand, who knows what they really are? )
I hope that you understood what I wanted to say.

As Kareeah points out, there are way too many parallels between the Fiery Moon Demons and the Kreegans for any real distinction to be made between the two. I don't believe that there can be two seperate races who look exactly the same and enjoy destroying planets... apart from the Underworld demons, who aren't Kreegans, though they don't like destroying worlds, only kingdoms.

Thanks for description...

No problem.

...but I have one question about "underworld":

Wiki wrote:
The Underworld is a place in religion and mythology where the souls of the recently departed go.

And what about Conquest of the Underworld - they were also demons. So, demons in Inferno can be from Underworld, not neccesary have connection to the Kreegan.

The Conquest of the Underworld Demons were wiped off the face of the earth after Deezelisk's death. They were a seperate race, it would seem, though they look exactly like Kreegans. Which explains Escaton's quote.

"The king and queen of Enroth must be strategists of the highest order" - it sound to like that king and queen of Enroth defeated the Kreegan. Why he mentioned them if he talked about Tarnum expedition to the Fiery Moon?

I covered this already. I made the assumption that Escaton was called to destroy Colony upon learning that Kreegans inhabited its earth, and instantly went off to capture the four Elemental Lords rather than travelling to Colony first. When the Elemental Lords were captured, he then went to Colony and learned all about the Kreegan infestation and the fact that Roland and Catherine had eliminated them. I believe he was only aware that the Kreegans were once there and were now gone, not that the Kreegans came, were destroyed, came again and were destroyed again. Hope this is clear enough.

But human or elf as Elemental Lord? I don't think so, esspecially after I read story from MM3 manual.

I have gone through this already, see my ramblings above about the Conflux and the people it calls to serve it.

Exactly.
Corlagon, you forgot about one think - Escaton was Ancients' Ultimate Weapon (as I called him) - he have to clean plagued planet as fast as he can - he must stop the Kreegan from growing and setting run for another planet. So if Escaton "invited" EL during Fiery Moon campaign, it takes him few hundreds years to "clean" Enroth and it is too much time for Kreegan to set run for another planet. So he would miss his orders. And Enroth probably wasn't only planet "visited" by the Kreegan so he couldn't prepearing a plan to destroy Devils which take few hundreds years to end.

Okay, step back a minute, and take a look at Colony in comparison with other insignificant worlds. Crazy people have been trying to destroy it for thousands of years, and every single time they have been thwarted. Vorr, the Elemental Lords, Duke Deezelisk, Xenofex, Archibald, Sandro, Viscount Kraeger, Drakonia, Kastore, Lucifer Kreegan... every one of them has tried to destroy or dominate the world, and every single time they have either failed or been killed. Other worlds would likely have been easy to destroy through some means... mass Armageddon, blowing up the resident neighbourhood Kreegan Hive, whatever. But Colony has been saved so many times that Escaton needed a foolproof way to destroy it, no matter how long it would take. The Convocation of Cataclysm, even though it took him hundreds of years to prepare, was that foolproof way (well, as usual, not really).

BTW - I have one question - what means "Deathknell"? Archibald named that in his journal former king of Deyja (Vilmar) who died in "accident" when Gryphonheart was animated? At first I thought that was name of king but from RoE and SoD we knows what this king real name was.

You're thinking correctly, Deathknell is absolutely, positively, definitely none other than good old Finneas Vilmar. Evidence includes the fact that it is stated that he raised Gryphonheart at Stonecastle. I assume Deathknell was merely his codename within the Necromancers' Guild.

[Kareeah Indaga]

The guild leader and king of Deyja, Deathknell, sought to take the Erathian throne by assassinating Gryphonheart and then reanimating him as a lich, bound to his service. Well, he got as far as the reanimation, but the binding did not take. Instead, the lich killed Deathknell. Now Erathia and Deyja have a new king and the guild has a new leader.

Err..why are you telling me this?

[Avonu]

I did say 'Elements', not 'Elementals'...

You wrote: "Elementals are the physical manifestaions of the elements"
So elements, elementals - whatever.

As Kareeah points out, there are way too many parallels between the Fiery Moon Demons and the Kreegans for any real distinction to be made between the two. I don't believe that there can be two seperate races who look exactly the same and enjoy destroying planets... apart from the Underworld demons, who aren't Kreegans, though they don't like destroying worlds, only kingdoms.

Yes, there are many parallels but on other hand these parallels can refear to real demons - demons from myths which enjoy destruction and changing worlds in hell. After all, we saw demons and devils in earlier Might and Magic games and they don't look or sound like the Kreegan.
So Underworld demons from HC were not only demons in MM universe (or maybe they were same race?).

The Conquest of the Underworld Demons were wiped off the face of the earth after Deezelisk's death. They were a seperate race, it would seem, though they look exactly like Kreegans. Which explains Escaton's quote.

They looked that because game mechanics, don't you think that? I don't think that Escaton refer to them in any possible way. I don't think that he knows of these demons exist.

I covered this already. I made the assumption that Escaton was called to destroy Colony upon learning that Kreegans inhabited its earth, and instantly went off to capture the four Elemental Lords rather than travelling to Colony first. When the Elemental Lords were captured, he then went to Colony and learned all about the Kreegan infestation and the fact that Roland and Catherine had eliminated them. I believe he was only aware that the Kreegans were once there and were now gone, not that the Kreegans came, were destroyed, came again and were destroyed again. Hope this is clear enough.

Probably you have right but with small expection: when he was called and arrived to this planet (maybe during AB?), the Kreegan were serious threat to Enroth but when Escaton captured Elemental Lords the Kreegan were eliminated. However he couldn't overcame his directives and he has to summon crystal.

Okay, step back a minute, and take a look at Colony in comparison with other insignificant worlds. Crazy people have been trying to destroy it for thousands of years, and every single time they have been thwarted. Vorr, the Elemental Lords, Duke Deezelisk, Xenofex, Archibald, Sandro, Viscount Kraeger, Drakonia, Kastore, Lucifer Kreegan... every one of them has tried to destroy or dominate the world, and every single time they have either failed or been killed. Other worlds would likely have been easy to destroy through some means... mass Armageddon, blowing up the resident neighbourhood Kreegan Hive, whatever. But Colony has been saved so many times that Escaton needed a foolproof way to destroy it, no matter how long it would take. The Convocation of Cataclysm, even though it took him hundreds of years to prepare, was that foolproof way (well, as usual, not really).

I don't think so - he was programmed not to destoy only Enroth but also another infected planets. So he simply couldn't allowed to waste his time for only one planet - even if it was saved many times from destruction.
Quicker solution will be sending battleship (and I nearly sure that Ancients have that kind of ship) and "clean" planet from the orbit.
One more thing - lost of Elemental Lords have caused havoc in Elemental Planes and Elementals' minds - and in AB they seem ok for me - no sign of insanity. So if Elementals lost they Lords before AB, they should be insane in AB, shouldn't they?

BTW - IIRC Enroth was settled not thousands years ago but in time between first encounter the Kreegan by Ancients and the Silence (there is text in Tomb of VARN which indicate that Enroth was free of [colonists] ancestors or the Enemy [Kreegan] presents before VARN arrive. And if I read correct this text it indicate that was written before VARN started it voyage - but could be wrong).
So it will be ca. 1500-1200 years ago (300-0 BS) - after "three generations travel".

Err..why are you telling me this?

Sorry for that - it's fault of my "fast posting".
I wanted to tell, that "Deathknell" couldn't be king of Deyja before Vilmar. All plan of poisoning and reanimating Gryphonheart was Sandro's plan after he lost his artifacts and was defeated by Yog and company.
And I know that you disbelive in this "alternative" but I wanted to definetly cnacel this theory.
I hope now you understand my intention.

[Corlagon]

You wrote: "Elementals are the physical manifestaions of the elements"
So elements, elementals - whatever.

Hmm, not really 'whatever'. I said that elements on their own can't create worlds. Elementals, as their physical, sentient manifestations, can do anything they want to do. A bit of a difference there, you see.

Yes, there are many parallels but on other hand these parallels can refear to real demons - demons from myths which enjoy destruction and changing worlds in hell. After all, we saw demons and devils in earlier Might and Magic games and they don't look or sound like the Kreegan.
So Underworld demons from HC were not only demons in MM universe (or maybe they were same race?).

Okay, you can go on believing that the Fiery Moon Demons weren't Kreegans, but I have many an ace up my sleeve to counter anything you say about possible differences. Notice that the 'real Demons' in the Underworld have no obvious connection with fire or anything of the like (apart from obvious graphic inadequacies involving sunlight from the Inferno in a subterranean cave) - whereas the Kreegans are very fond of fire magic and even have dreams about using it to destroy entire worlds (Lucifer). The Underworld Demons are cave-dwellers, not pyromaniacs, and are more obsessed with causing general havoc than properly conquering or destroying planets. Secondly, they do not have access to the technology the Kreegans use to turn every planet they come across into Fiery Moons. About the Demons and Devils thing, we also saw Gem, Yog, Lord Kilburn, Crodo and God knows how many others floating around the Nacelle worlds - loose continuity. The series wasn't totally fleshed out back then so we can safely assume that those happy characters are either Kreegan stragglers who aren't worth Escaton's time and energy to destroy, or non-Kreegan varieties.

They looked that because game mechanics, don't you think that? I don't think that Escaton refer to them in any possible way. I don't think that he knows of these demons exist.

I agree with the first part, which is why I accept that they are a seperate race altogether. But Escaton does know about their previous existence, as he talks about the 'demons of myth'. He is obviously referring to the Underworld Demons, who were wiped off the face of Antagarich centuries ago (long enough for them to fade into myth and legend). How else (apart from the brief Fiery Moon infestation which only the Barbarians knew about) would the Kreegans have been well-known as Demons by the natives of Enroth and Antagarich? It's not like they pulled the terms 'Demon' and 'Devil' out of their backsides. The name had to come from somewhere.

Probably you have right but with small expection: when he was called and arrived to this planet (maybe during AB?), the Kreegan were serious threat to Enroth but when Escaton captured Elemental Lords the Kreegan were eliminated. However he couldn't overcame his directives and he has to summon crystal.

When he was called and when he arrived are two different things. Only when he was called by the Ancients were the Kreegans a serious threat. Definitely not when he arrived, as they were gone by that stage.

I don't think so - he was programmed not to destoy only Enroth but also another infected planets. So he simply couldn't allowed to waste his time for only one planet - even if it was saved many times from destruction.
Quicker solution will be sending battleship (and I nearly sure that Ancients have that kind of ship) and "clean" planet from the orbit.

Do you really think an enormous battleship would be enough to destroy a well-established Kreegan infestation? If it were that simple, the Ancients would never have bothered with Escaton at all. Remember that the Kreegans too have weapons of their own - their Hives, when destroyed, cause planets to explode. They are capable of instigating huge conspiracies to brainwash and enthrall natives. Also remember that, going by my theories, the Ancients would have presumed that the Kreegans had been active on Colony for many hundreds of years. I don't think the Ancients would have wanted to risk their own precious lives against such a large-scale infestation just to blow up one planet, if they could rely on Escaton to do it all for them. As we don't know a lot about what resources and battle tactics the Ancients had to spare during the Demon Wars, we can never really be sure unless Marzhin provides some sort of clarity in his campaigns about the Ancients' identity. In any case, I'm certain that Escaton was able to spare a few centuries in order to make sure that the planet was destroyed.

One more thing - lost of Elemental Lords have caused havoc in Elemental Planes and Elementals' minds - and in AB they seem ok for me - no sign of insanity. So if Elementals lost they Lords before AB, they should be insane in AB, shouldn't they?

I guess they should, but we can explain this away easily. I think I made three theories to counter this a while ago. Or maybe the Elementals who entered the physical world and created Confluxes throughout Antagarich weren't affected by the insanity, while they were serving under four different Lords.

BTW - IIRC Enroth was settled not thousands years ago but in time between first encounter the Kreegan by Ancients and the Silence (there is text in Tomb of VARN which indicate that Enroth was free of [colonists] ancestors or the Enemy [Kreegan] presents before VARN arrive. And if I read correct this text it indicate that was written before VARN started it voyage - but could be wrong).
So it will be ca. 1500-1200 years ago (300-0 BS) - after "three generations travel".

Yes, I know what you mean, it was just a figure of speech. Sorry.

[Kareeah Indaga]

Sorry for that - it's fault of my "fast posting".
I wanted to tell, that "Deathknell" couldn't be king of Deyja before Vilmar. All plan of poisoning and reanimating Gryphonheart was Sandro's plan after he lost his artifacts and was defeated by Yog and company.
And I know that you disbelive in this "alternative" but I wanted to definetly cnacel this theory.
I hope now you understand my intention.

[Kreegan advocate] Ah, but Sandro didn’t put his plan into full swing until after the Succession Wars ended! After Archibald began his ten years of statue-dom. It is conceivable* that Archibald never learned of the change in command (or, at least, not until after that entry.)[/Kreegan advocate]

(*But yes, unlikely. No, I don’t honestly believe this to be the case, as I mentioned. If Nimbus told him about the whole mess with King Gryphonheart, surely the name of the king deposed by him would have come up, thus Archibald would know there had been a change of command prior to this, even assuming he didn’t learn of it from other sources.)

In any case, I'm certain that Escaton was able to spare a few centuries in order to make sure that the planet was destroyed.

I wouldn’t be so sure. The Kreegan first attacked the Ancients about 1500 years prior to MMVI, remember. Keeping that in mind, do you really think he could spare a fifth of the entire war on one measly planet? And if he could—look at how fast the Kreegan infestation struck. Three years was all it took for Sweetwater and Eeofol to be blighted into wasteland. If it took Escaton centuries to cleanse each planet, by the time the infestation was gone it would have spawned a dozen more—hardly an effective use of time and effort.

Or maybe the Elementals who entered the physical world and created Confluxes throughout Antagarich weren't affected by the insanity, while they were serving under four different Lords.

But in that case, they should have been affected anyway, because Erdamon at least was a native of the Plane of Earth, and would have been able to shield his minions after they went home at the end of the Demon Wars if he were Lord of Earth—and the Plane of Earth was just as crazy as the other three in MM8. So either way he couldn’t be Lord; either Escaton had come and he could shield his people (which he couldn’t), or Escaton had not come yet and there was no need, because Gralkor and the other Lords were firmly entrenched in their home Planes.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

No mention of Ethric and the inconsistencies about him ?

In MM6, he's supposedly the world's first Lich. You kill him in his tomb and bring his skull to some guy in free haven.

In MM7 (set AFTER HoMM3), there's a relic called Ethric's Staff, and its description also states that he was the first Lich.

So how come in H3: the shadow of death (supposedly set after HoMM2 but right before HoMM3), Ethric is not a lich, but a wizard who was the tutor of Sandro and ironically was angry at Sandro for becoming a necromancer?

[Corlagon]

I wouldn’t be so sure. The Kreegan first attacked the Ancients about 1500 years prior to MMVI, remember. Keeping that in mind, do you really think he could spare a fifth of the entire war on one measly planet?

I can, and I do, yet there's more to it than that in my view. It appears to me that DotD was the first time Escaton began experimenting with the Convocation of Cataclysm (I mean, it's not as if the Elemental Lords had been frequently imprisoned beforehand to allow it). Despite his phrases in DotD, I doubt that he was only capturing the Elementals in the interest of Colony's destruction alone. If he had such a reliable, effective means of destroying a planet, he would have had an excellent weapon at his disposal for future missions against the Kreegans. Why else would he go to such huge efforts, travelling to alternate dimensions and capturing Elemental Lords in his attempt to destroy one planet when he could have just asked the Ancients "Gimme a battleship and let me blow the whole thing up in one go!" I'm pretty sure he was aware of what he was getting into when he put his plan into motion.

And if he could—look at how fast the Kreegan infestation struck. Three years was all it took for Sweetwater and Eeofol to be blighted into wasteland.

That's the nature of the Kreegans. They are exactly like insects, which is, I suspect, the reason why the Ancients, even with all their high-tech warfare, are having such a hard time getting rid of them and are now resorting to the destruction of entire planets bearing their presence.

If it took Escaton centuries to cleanse each planet, by the time the infestation was gone it would have spawned a dozen more—hardly an effective use of time and effort.

Not necessarily an uneffective use of his time. Remember that Colony was a pretty unique planet in that there was no sure-fire way to destroy it without resorting to drastic measures. The Kreegan Hive, his ace in the hole, had been disposed of before he got there. Armageddon's Blade and the Sword of Frost were an ocean away from each other at the time. The Fount of Wizardry, another reliable source of mass destruction, was most likely tucked safely beneath the Shrouded Ocean. Only outside influences remain, and among them, the Convocation was the most reliable being that it involved hugely high sorcery and was supported in four different planes of existence. As I have said above, the capture of the Elemental Lords, however long it took, gave Escaton the ability to destroy planets much faster, safer and more reliably. (And no, I'm not implying that he's an enormous kitchen appliance)

But in that case, they should have been affected anyway, because Erdamon at least was a native of the Plane of Earth, and would have been able to shield his minions after they went home at the end of the Demon Wars if he were Lord of Earth—and the Plane of Earth was just as crazy as the other three in MM8. So either way he couldn’t be Lord; either Escaton had come and he could shield his people (which he couldn’t), or Escaton had not come yet and there was no need, because Gralkor and the other Lords were firmly entrenched in their home Planes.

I thought up that explanation on the spot, but still... I must flesh out my babble about secondary Elemental Lords here by letting you know that I think the power over Elementals applies only to the Confluxes in the material world, not to the Planes. So, while Tamar and the other three rule the Elementals who have made it into the corporeal world, they have no real power in the Planes themselves, acting as mere emissaries for the real four.

Besides, Erdamon was asleep in the mountains around the Land of the Giants for hundreds of years before the Conflux called him, so it's possible that he was out of shape after his hibernation and, upon returning to the Plane of Earth, was slain, defeated or otherwise taken out of the equation by the crazy Earth Elementals. Also, if he did return, it's possible that Erdamon's Conflux minions were elsewhere and were opposing the insane Earth Elementals, and we just didn't get to meet them in MM8. Elemental Planes are very big places after all.

I wonder why we call the events of AB "the Demon Wars" if it was actually Kreegans and not Demons that Erathia was opposing?

No mention of Ethric and the inconsistencies about him ?

In MM6, he's supposedly the world's first Lich. You kill him in his tomb and bring his skull to some guy in free haven.

In MM7 (set AFTER HoMM3), there's a relic called Ethric's Staff, and its description also states that he was the first Lich.

So how come in H3: the shadow of death (supposedly set after HoMM2 but right before HoMM3), Ethric is not a lich, but a wizard who was the tutor of Sandro and ironically was angry at Sandro for becoming a necromancer?

I think that the Warlock Ethric and Ethric the Mad were two different people (Sandro's mentor may have been named after the ancient Lich). Remember that Ethric from The Shadow of Death totally despised Necromancy and undeath, which is why he went ballistic after his wayward pupil, Sandro, turned himself into a Lich. The other Ethric was supposedly alive (and undead) many, many, many years before our old friend.

The irony still stands though, as the Warlock Ethric was indeed transformed into a Lich by Sandro after his defeat. Sandro's bio reads: "Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric." Though, since Ethric didn't approve of Necromancy at all, this is either a small inconsistency, or the developers were implying that Sandro first secretly studied Necromancy while under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric.