Too many non-retaliation units?

[Wolfshanze]

in that case you must have hated devils in Heroes IV..they could teleport the entire battelfield...
in my opinion it doesn't get unbalence because lvl 7 creature is soo expensive and there weekly groth is so low.

Man, everyone has such a short memory... Devils could teleport all over the battlefield in Heroes III as well! Heroes III also happened to be a very fun game and pretty-well balanced, so there's no reason why teleporting devils anywhere on the battlefield wouldn't work in Heroes V.

Speaking of which, Devils were MUCH more powerful in Heroes III then they are in Heroes V, and everyone still considered the demon town in H3 the weakest town around... hmmm... much like everyone considers inferno in H5. I think it wouldn't hurt to beef-up the inferno town in H5 by increasing the speed of Devils. How's that for play-balancing an already weak town?

There's some folks swearing Devils need to be slow for play balance... they must not be playing the same game I am, because by all my calculations (and apparently about 99% of everyone else who plays H5), the inferno faction is too weak and needs to be beefed-up... Devils teleporting everywhere would be a great place to start!

Heck, even the intro movie for H5 suggests something more... when the Devils teleport into the Cathedral, I'm thinking they came from a long way away... probably from Hell itself... if we turned the intro movie into a literal translation of gameplay in H5, the Devils would have missed the wedding all-together... as it would have taken them about five turns to teleport into the Cathedral (the last move before getting into the cathedral would have been just outside the walls... they can't teleport far, remember?!?!).

[Lord Zeus]

Heck, even the intro movie for H5 suggests something more... when the Devils teleport into the Cathedral, I'm thinking they came from a long way away... probably from Hell itself... if we turned the intro movie into a literal translation of gameplay in H5, the Devils would have missed the wedding all-together... as it would have taken them about five turns to teleport into the Cathedral (the last move before getting into the cathedral would have been just outside the walls... they can't teleport far, remember?!?!).

What about the movie in the backround in the main menu. I think it is the developer's way of making fun of the weak devil by making him fight a priest and to get his ass kicked... badly.

[wimfrits]

yes of course..I didn't mean to make the devils over powerfull but like in heroes IV(full teleport and not super strong)..sorry for my bad explaning

Oh. In that case I agree

Speaking of which, Devils were MUCH more powerful in Heroes III then they are in Heroes V, and everyone still considered the demon town in H3 the weakest town around... hmmm... much like everyone considers inferno in H5. I think it wouldn't hurt to beef-up the inferno town in H5 by increasing the speed of Devils. How's that for play-balancing an already weak town?

1. Inferno is not a weak town. What makes you think that?

2. Even if it was, there´s no point in overpowering 1 unit to compensate for weaker units. Along the same line you could fill the ranks of Haven lvl1-6 with peasants and boost angels by 500% That sort of compensating doesn´t work. You´d get rushing strategies and an overpowered faction because 1 strong stack >> multiple weak stacks.

3. As for H3, it is the perfect example of that. Get lvl7 units asap or bust: most often the best strategy was a rush to lvl7 units. That implies that lvl7 units were too powerful for the game. Fortunately, this problem has been adressed in H5, and quite decent at that imo.

[Wolfshanze]

1. Inferno is not a weak town. What makes you think that?

I think it wouldn't take long for a poll to prove that.

All the polls strongly suggest Sylvan and Necro towns as the strongest... nobody ever seems to think Inferno is the strongest. In fact, quite the opposite, I have heard (and agree myself) from countless folks on this forum that Inferno is the weakest town. This is not to say it's worthless, but compared to other towns, it's not as strong.

Inferno lacks flyers, it lacks shooters (though Succubi are cool), and most of its units die by the bushel (very weak constitutions). Gating is nice, but takes too long. It's 7-level unit is the weakest in the game (while the bone dragons are weaker, there's more of them, so this actually makes the Devil the most useless 7-level unit in the game).

You seem so dead-set against what everyone else is saying, you're just putting blinders over your eyes, plugging your ears, and going "I can't hear you" when everyone is telling you what's wrong here. You're in the huge minority here. Inferno is a weak town whether or not you want to believe it, and their 7th level critter is the weakest of it's tier, so why not SPEED IT UP. You keep acting like folks want to double it's hit points, add tons of spellpower, give it immunity from damage and make it a GOD. No... folks just want it to teleport like it ALWAYS HAS. Yet you cry and moan that it's too much, when in fact, it's not at all... at WORST, it would make the Devil about as strong as the Dungeon's 7-level shadow dragon.

Sheesh, stop over exagerating the changes people want... they just want it to move further, not make it a living god.

[Gaidal Cain]

Man, everyone has such a short memory... Devils could teleport all over the battlefield in Heroes III as well!

Because of high speed, not some special ability. Slow made them more normal. And most level 7 creatures were too fast in H3.

[wimfrits]

All the polls strongly suggest Sylvan and Necro towns as the strongest... nobody ever seems to think Inferno is the strongest. In fact, quite the opposite...

You could try playing on heroic and see which side brings you furthest. Vs neutrals, Inferno simply rocks.

Inferno lacks flyers, it lacks shooters (though Succubi are cool), and most of its units die by the bushel (very weak constitutions). Gating is nice, but takes too long.

From my point of view, what you're saying here is that you don't know how to make proper use of Inferno's strengths. That's fine.

You seem so dead-set against what everyone else is saying, you're just putting blinders over your eyes, plugging your ears, and going "I can't hear you" when everyone is telling you what's wrong here.

I can't hear you.
That's really a fine way of discussing you have there! And constructive as well!

[Wolfshanze]

Sorry... you just seem to not here what everyone is saying here. It's clear you love Inferno... great, but others seem to think (and I concur) that it's not as strong as the other towns.

Sylvan and Necro are CLEARLY stronger towns, and most other towns are at least a little better. I'm not saying you can't win with the Inferno town, I'm just saying it's EASIER with just about any other town!

P.S.
By the way wimfrits... it's not looking too good for the Inferno town being considered the most powerful... in fact, it's leading by a good margin that folks don't think it's very powerful at all...
viewtopic.php?t=2111

Been trying to tell you, just because you think it's powerful, doesn't me everyone else does.

[DaemianLucifer]

Man, everyone has such a short memory... Devils could teleport all over the battlefield in Heroes III as well! Heroes III also happened to be a very fun game and pretty-well balanced, so there's no reason why teleporting devils anywhere on the battlefield wouldn't work in Heroes V.

No,they couldnt.Only arch devils could.Devils were limited just to reaching the stack directly opposing them from side to side.

[cromulantkeith]

I completely agree that inferno is the weakest town. At first I really liked them... succy + pit lord spells is a lot of splash damage. But then once you play other factions, you realise that inferno is quite weak comparitively.

I think buffing devils would be a great idea. First, they are DEVILS, they aren't supposed to suck. Currently, they do. IMO (flavor alone) they should be one of the strongest units in the game.

I'd vote for increasing their initiative (keeping teleport distance the same - or slight buff), but giving them massively more HP. That would turn them into a teleporting damage/meatshield, and I'd be cool with that. Maybe giving them a cleave attack.

I was however never a fan of whole-screen teleporting no-retailation devils. I (personally) hope they don't buff them that way.

[cromulantkeith]

After reading this thread, and posting.. I just realised that this thread got hijacked a while back. I might as well post on the original topic.

I agree: too many non-retaliation units. I'd rather give them unique new abilities (i could brainstorm ~20 right now). I don't think many of the non-retaliation units should be that way (flavor wise). I can see no-retal being on "scary" things.. but some stuff... it just doesn't make sense on.

I'd rather see no-retal on stuff like vampires/dragons/hellhounds/devils... again.. scary things. Take it away from other factions, and make it more of a faction thing (i.e. inferno and necro). Give the other stacks in other factions different things to balance that you just took away no-retal. That way they'd be just as strong, but more in-line flavor speaking.

For example, shield bash shouldn't be no-retal (in my opinion). So take away the no-retal, but make the initiative loss much more significant. That would give them more flavor. It would suck to have your biggest stack nailed with a shield bash and loose 2 turns worth of initiative. And it would be a cool "feel" to the footmen. Must more than a little initiative and no-retal.

[Jimmpi]

it both sounds and looks like that inferno is the weakest town.....(personally I thought that was the case in heroes III as well)
Maybe ubisoft is going to fix it in the future

[Wolfshanze]

After reading this thread, and posting.. I just realised that this thread got hijacked a while back. I might as well post on the original topic.

Hehe... I can't hijack my own thread!

[cromulantkeith]

it both sounds and looks like that inferno is the weakest town.....(personally I thought that was the case in heroes III as well)
Maybe ubisoft is going to fix it in the future

Indeed they are fairly weak. I do like it when factions "feel" very distinctive though. I love gating, because of the 'feel" that it gives inferno. If they were to buff inferno, I'd like to see it being buffed by making gating better - since it's their definining ability.

Either make gating base-time faster, or make more creatures gate-in. That way, they'd fix the balance, but keep the awesome flavor that inferno have.

[Gaidal Cain]

Sorry... you just seem to not here what everyone is saying here. It's clear you love Inferno... great, but others seem to think (and I concur) that it's not as strong as the other towns.

People complpained about Inferno in H3 as well, but there were a small number of people who actually learnt how it should be played, and became very good with it. Just because you (or the majority of people) believes it's the weakest after a week of playing, it doesn't make it the truth.

[Wolfshanze]

Sorry... you just seem to not here what everyone is saying here. It's clear you love Inferno... great, but others seem to think (and I concur) that it's not as strong as the other towns.

People complained about Inferno in H3 as well, but there were a small number of people who actually learnt how it should be played, and became very good with it. Just because you (or the majority of people) believes it's the weakest after a week of playing, it doesn't make it the truth.

Oooh... nice burn based totally on assumptions you don't even know, which are in-fact, quite false.

I'm glad you pointed out your blatant superiority in intelligence, at how you know how to play the faction to perfection and everybody else doesn't. Nice one. Thanks for pointing out how you think.

Unlike you Gaidal Cain, I put my pants on one leg at a time (I know your superior status grants you God-like abilities and the capability to magically have your shorts on in a way nobody else can do), but for a simple man like myself, I've played through the first four campaigns already, including the ENTIRE Inferno campaign, so I'd like to think that my opinion carries at least SOME weight which cannot be simply dismissed by the omnipotent Inferno Gods who play with such superior skills to all others.

The simple fact is, the Inferno town is widely regarded as the weakest town. That's just a FACT. Why does it carry that stigma? Because it's totally false? Or because there might be some truth to the matter?

I'll let someone smarter then me figure-out why that stigma is carried by Inferno. I'm sure someone will claim the "smarter then everyone else title" (though I believe that title has already been claimed).

[theLuckyDragon]

I don't think his opinion has anything to do with his "superior status". Why must you immediately assume the worst?

And if you start talking with "widely regarded" or "the majority", you're bound to get into a disagreement.

[Gaidal Cain]

I'm glad you pointed out your blatant superiority in intelligence, at how you know how to play the faction to perfection and everybody else doesn't. Nice one. Thanks for pointing out how you think.

Actually, I never claimed I was one of those people. You're the one assuming things.

I've played through the first four campaigns already, including the ENTIRE Inferno campaign, so I'd like to think that my opinion carries at least SOME weight which cannot be simply dismissed by the omnipotent Inferno Gods who play with such superior skills to all others.

And? I've done that as well, and when I checked, only one of them featured an inferno that didn't have any limits to how high it could be built, and both maps were town building were involved was facing off against Sylvan forces recruited from several towns. If all you've played with Inferno is the campaign, you certainly haven't got a sound basis to judge it's strength on. Nothing personal.

[DaemianLucifer]

While it is true some people mastered inferno,it is also true that when they duel with people that mastered other towns they usually loose.You have to match masters with masters,pros with pros,newbies with newbbies,etc.

[Wolfshanze]

Hmmm...

Well, anyways, all I have to say is this... Inferno town is generally weaker then all other towns... like DL says, a master Inferno player would probably lose to a master Sylvan or Necro player.

Having said that, I also think (IMHO) that the Devil has been CASTRATED from previous incarnations. I do not seek to make the Devil the end-all, be-all warrior... I just intend to give him his manhood back.

He's one of the weakest level-7 creatures considering a combination of hitpoints, speed and specials... none of which stand-out on the current Devil or Arch Devil as being anything to write home about.

All I seek is to boost ONE stat... not all. It's also a stat that really is only useful on the first turn or two at best... after which, it becomes pointless... also, regarding the situation, it may not even be a good feature to use (jumping into the middle of a large enemy army at the first chance is not always a good idea).

Angles can resurect and have more hit points, Titans can kill at a distance, Dragons can fly further, breath fire and have more hit points, Bone Dragons come in greater numbers... what makes the Devil stand-out? Nothing. It's a slow meat shield, nothing more. Its special is also nearly worthless, especially compared to others.

After long thought, I think speed-9 and speed-10 for the Devil and Arch-Devil respectively is not too crazy to consider at all. It makes them the fastest units in the game without being omnipotent. No other stats will I change, so I don't see how this would be a "game breaker" at all. Sheesh, give the Devil SOME sort of advantage... every other Level-7 creature has something to be proud of, why not the wussy Devil?

Heck, I don't even like the Inferno town, yet I want to make it beefier (when I'd be primarily fighting against it!).

[Rapier]

The devil's summon pit fiend ability does a great deal of damage. The new pit fiends last until they're killed, get to cast the pit fiend spells...

Devil's are better than bone dragons by far.

As for them being the weakest, having played the first 3.5 campains on heroic, I can tell you that so far, the inferno campain is far and away the hardest, it's hardly fair to compare based soley on playing the campains.

I have also played several hotseat games, a couple of the scenaios and some of the multiplayer maps against the computer. I do not agree that inferno is the worst, as Wimfrits said, gating is one of the most useful hero specials in the game, allowing you to play a no-loss fight against most neutrals.

I would say the only unit which needs changing is the horned demon, as the inferno is the only race to not get a shooter in the first 3 levels they need a good tank imo. I think the horned demon/demon overseer could do with slightly more initiative so that it gates troops in faster, as you usually rely on gated hounds and imps and never use gated demons.

The other thing is the balance in the game is much better between the levels now; level 7’s don’t really do good damage to level 1’s anymore. They do good damage to level 4’s and above really, and the best way to kill mass level 1’s is probably level 3. While level 3’s do better damage to cost to level 1’s.

I think you’re in danger of really upsetting this balance (which is pretty good already) if you make such a blanket change as giving the level 7’s the ability to go anywhere on the battlefield. I already think that the dragons move too far, and the best level 7 appears to be the Titans, who of course, can strike anywhere in turn 1.