The Heroes Round Table

Having not played HoMMIV,I have to ask. What is the "Fiery Realm"?

Well it's described as "a world that has seen the domination of the Kreegans", very fiery and full of Imps, Ice Demons, Devils and such. Gauldoth manages to travel to it to rescue his master Kalibarr (who apparently somehow transported himself there immediately before the Reckoning). All the Kreegans who survived the genocide in H3 sought refuge there sometime before MM8.

Secret_Holder wrote:Having not played HoMMIV,I have to ask. What is the "Fiery Realm"?

That's debatable, it could be the Fiery Moon from Chronicles or basically any other volcanic world, but it is a Kreegan-inhabited realm for sure. Gauldoth Half-Dead, the Necropolis protagonist, travels to it through a portal to save his former master, who's trapped there (and by the way it's VERY hard to keep him alive throughout the mission with the teleporting across the entire battle arena Devils killing him almost for the sport). When he returns back to Axeoth, part of the Kreegans follow him and subsequently join his army.

Actually, very few Kreegan survived the fall of Eofol (just a few heroes like Calh). They fled to Fiery Realm when the Reckoning occured. Then, some Kreegans from Fiery Realm (including the survivors from Enroth) traveled to Necros through Gauldoth's portal.

After AB Kreegans of Enroth were practically extict. There weren't even tens of them.

Huh, so in that case the Kreegan in the Death castles before Gauldoth went to the Fiery Realm are nothing but gameplay mechanics?

GreatEmerald wrote:Huh, so in that case the Kreegan in the Death castles before Gauldoth went to the Fiery Realm are nothing but gameplay mechanics?

IIRC, the demonic half of creatures is disabled till Gauldot visited the Fiery Realm.

Corlagon wrote:

Avonu wrote:I really don'tsee any free time for Cathrine and Roland to visit Enroth in meantime. First Restoration of Erathia war, next for Blood and Honor events when Roland was freed and just after that Armageddon's Blade war. After end of this campaign Ironfists have time for something else then war and politics in Erathia.

Yes, but there you go, I gave you two pieces of text which do state that they did return to Enroth briefly, and do help clear up that supposed screwup in MM9's letter. Take it or leave it.

I think you should reread that quote:

Catherine's Charge wrote:In the long months since you left Enroth, your days have been filled with strife, terror, grief, and triumph, yet you have never lost sight of what is important to you, your son Nicolai. Your thoughts drift now to him, as you worry for him, for he is alone in Enroth and has been ever since you were summoned home to Erathia and Roland was taken captive on the Night of Shooting Stars...

Alone ever since -- so no reunion in between.

That's true. But then you have the blurb and the letter to deal with, and in-universe you can't just say "Tim Lang messed up" or "Roland was mildly insane when he was writing the note". It's another of those annoying situations where assuming one thing seems (to me) to make the storyline more sensical, despite conflicting slightly with something else.

To be semantically-minded about it, Nicolai would still be "left alone" (i.e. alone to rule Enroth) even if the Ironfists visited him, since they didn't re-assume the throne.
They don't actually say "he is alone in Enroth [...] and we haven't seen him since the Night of Shooting Stars..."

Roland's bio doesn't really say he rejoined Nicolai. It was about Roland right after his release from Colony Zod, when he was going to reunity with his wife and son.

AB and MM8 clearly say Roland hasn't seen Nicolai since before his imprisonment.

It doesn't say he was planning to reunite with them, it says he really did.

Xel II wrote:AB and MM8 clearly say Roland hasn't seen Nicolai since before his imprisonment.

But where?
And I'm looking for clear statements, not vagueness like "it has been so long since I've seen Enroth, or Nicolai" etc etc.

It appears to be bad wording.

In MM8 he says that Niclai was a little lad when he last seen him.

Could be.
But, it says what it says and should be considered correct unless it's irreconcilably conflicted. MM9 doesn't contradict it and actually supports it. So I'll still deem it intentional.

XEL II wrote:Actually, very few Kreegan survived the fall of Eofol (just a few heroes like Calh). They fled to Fiery Realm when the Reckoning occured. Then, some Kreegans from Fiery Realm (including the survivors from Enroth) traveled to Necros through Gauldoth's portal.

After AB Kreegans of Enroth were practically extict. There weren't even tens of them.

No, the Kreegans existed before the opening of portal. Devil creation buildings are in no way disabled nor the hiring of demon heroes; during the relavant scenario (which I am playing).

I also have storyline evidence to this effect collected yesterday in events (all in my case about 6 months before opening the portal).



While it says that some of the Kreegans fled to another realm, it does not say that all of them did so. Those that remained were still left 'disorganised and weak' though.



The realm to which some of the Kreegans fled is the realm from which the Kreegans 'draw their powers', that is to say their original home world or plane. They 'went home', which means back to Sheolg (sorry that's Heroes V but the world is never named ) ;



This is a description of the world from which they draw their powers and is where I am at the moment.

As for Kreegans in Enroth.





Given that this is after the Armageddon's Blade campaign, the Kreegans are not the major problem in Erathia any more, he must by talking about the one's in Enroth. Thus the first dialogue is inconsistant with the story of Kreegans being destroyed in Enroth, but not sufficiant.

Combined with the second piece of evidence though it is sufficiant.

The reason is that when the reckoning happened he automatically assumed the Kreegans had taken the Enrothian capital city, which suggests a serious military threat from the Kreegans in the vicinity of the capital city.

So yes, in the end just before the reckoning the Kreegans invade Enroth (again?) and pose a sufficient threat that the automatic assumption of Nicolai is that they have won and taken the capital city.

tolich wrote: IIRC, the demonic half of creatures is disabled till Gauldot visited the Fiery Realm.

It is not, neither for the player (red) or the native undead/demon faction (blue). God I remember how much damage those venom spawns did to me from their little towers.........

Devils are disabled but only in the neutral city that Gauldoth captures initially. But that's only to encourage the player to build bone dragons, 8 of which are required to gain access to the green border tent and thus to the crusader faction's city (green).

Corlagon wrote: That's true. But then you have the blurb and the letter to deal with, and in-universe you can't just say "Tim Lang messed up" or "Roland was mildly insane when he was writing the note". It's another of those annoying situations where assuming one thing seems (to me) to make the storyline more sensical, despite conflicting slightly with something else.

To be semantically-minded about it, Nicolai would still be "left alone" (i.e. alone to rule Enroth) even if the Ironfists visited him, since they didn't re-assume the throne.
They don't actually say "he is alone in Enroth [...] and we haven't seen him since the Night of Shooting Stars..." creative

The Ironfists never returned to Enroth and Nicolai after Roland went to Erathia after the Restoration of Erathia campaign (described in the letter).

That's why Enroth believes that he is dead and have made Nicolai King. King Nicolai = Roland never returning. A person that is minding a kingdom in the kings absence is called a prince-regent (if he is a prince) not a king.

Slayer, the first writing there (as I interpret it) says that the Kreegans were weakened, then escaped to the fiery plane. What Kreegans were left on Enroth were disorganised and weak, thus Escaton didn't pay attention to them, and they all died in the Reckoning anyway. So the Kreegans in the campaign there are just gameplay mechanics then. Or at least the fact that you can build an all-Kreegan army.

The second quote is interesting, but not very reliable, so it sounds like a myth to me. But if it was true, then the Fiery Plane is (one of the) Kreegan homeworld(s) or their advanced colony. And since it says "Has seen the domination", not where they came from, I believe that it being a colony is most likely. (Wish Gauldoth had one of the antimatter bombs with him in that journey...)

There is absolutely no doubt that all the Kreegans that didn't flee to the Fiery Realm were killed. All of them. There were NO Kreegans on the face of Enroth from 1172 onwards, and therefore no Kreegans present during the Reckoning. Play MM8 and you will see there is absolutely no ambiguity about it:

Escaton (MM8) wrote:The cataclysm was brought into being when I performed the ritual Convocation of Cataclysm which brought into being the crystal. It is a weapon of last resort created by my masters to defend themselves against the Kreegans. I do have other weapons. But when I became aware of the Kreegans' infestation on your world, I deemed the use of ultimate force necessary. Your world has fallen so far--it seemed certain you would not be able to defend yourselves against my enemies. Though I underestimated your abilities, and the Kreegans were ultimately destroyed, I still feel that I was right to err on the side of caution.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:I am aware that the king and queen of Enroth have rid your world of Kreegans. Still, your world is to be destroyed. Once I am called, I must perform the Convocation. Once the Convocation is begun, it must continue.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:I was called while Kreegan still lived on your world. It matters not that they were dust by the time I arrived.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:As far as I'm able to feel such, I am amazed that your world was able to eliminate its Kreegan infestation. They are quite a bit more…advanced than you. The king and queen of Enroth must be strategists of the highest order. Too bad that they were not able to finish their task sooner. If I could regret, I would regret having to needlessly annihilate your world.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:Yes, your world does need saving! The cataclysm, if not stopped, will destroy it utterly. A quandary for you: I, as bringer of the cataclysm know how it can be ended. Further, I acknowledge that since there are no longer Kreegans on your world it need not be destroyed. But, as servant to my masters, I am compelled to let the cataclysm continue by not divulging my knowledge to you.

Catherine Ironfist (MM8) wrote:The Kreegans? They are no more; I am sure of it. After we put down Lucifer Kreegan, my armies scoured Eeofol searching for any signs of their continued existence. We found none. No, the Kreegan infestation of our world is eliminated.

Nicolai believes the Reckoning was actually just the Kreegans getting their revenge by blowing up Castle Ironfist because he has no better understanding of what happened to the world. Just look at H4 - it caught everyone by surprise. He still thinks Enroth exists and that's he's just on another continent or something (and this was intentional by the MM9 developers, not an explanation I'm conjuring up).

GreatEmerald wrote:Slayer, the first writing there (as I interpret it) says that the Kreegans were weakened, then escaped to the fiery plane. What Kreegans were left on Enroth were disorganised and weak, thus Escaton didn't pay attention to them, and they all died in the Reckoning anyway. So the Kreegans in the campaign there are just gameplay mechanics then. Or at least the fact that you can build an all-Kreegan army.

The second quote is interesting, but not very reliable, so it sounds like a myth to me. But if it was true, then the Fiery Plane is (one of the) Kreegan homeworld(s) or their advanced colony. And since it says "Has seen the domination", not where they came from, I believe that it being a colony is most likely. (Wish Gauldoth had one of the antimatter bombs with him in that journey...)

It is quite possible to de-activate the building of any kreegan dwellings. There are cities in the death campaign (demon cities) where it is impossible to build undead troops.

The principal other reason why you are wrong is that if Gauldoth receives at the quest hut the Angel's blade at the quest hut from a large devil. The Kreegans are already in Axeoth according to the game story itself no doubt. Neither does the story claim the Kreegans are gone, nor does the game make any attempt to portray them as gone.

The world in question is a pure ball of fiery magma. The central island upon arrival has two portals, one which leads in a loop through a few more islands each of which has a powerful anti-death artifact under heavy Kreegan guard.

The other leads to various islands where there are demon dwellings, arranged in a very neat way (one island for each type of demon dwelling).

The main Kreegan army was made up mostly of undead, 1500 skeletons and 20 bone dragons. The only Kreegans in evidence (other than the artifact guards) are about 45 venom spawns and the leader. Even on their own plane then, the Kreegans are 'apparently' tied very closely to necromancy.

When I say apparently, remember there is no way out. It's a loop and there sign of anything *beyond* the loop, only an endless sea of fire. The island dwellings are arranged around the central entrance island for one reason.

The whole thing is the launching pad, it's not where the Kreegans live at all. The Kreegans "live" in the fire itself, the launching pad is where they assume suitable physical forms to prepare to invade Axeoth through the portal, when the time is right. On each the islands is stored an artifact to equip the Kreegan leader (anti-death artifacts) because the Kreegans are expecting to fight necromancers and undead.

It is habitable to Gauldoth (unlike the lake of fire) because it is required to house the forms that the Kreegans have adopted to exist in Axeoth, not the Fiery Realm.

Corlagon wrote: There is absolutely no doubt that all the Kreegans that didn't flee to the Fiery Realm were killed. All of them. There were NO Kreegans on the face of Enroth from 1172 onwards, and therefore no Kreegans present during the Reckoning. Play MM8 and you will see there is absolutely no ambiguity about it:

And the entire Heroes IV death campaign completely disagrees with Might and Magic VIII.



Read the underlined text. It was believed that the Kreegans had perished, Gauldoth is telling us that while that is a common belief, it is completely wrong. Gauldoth is proven right, the popular misconception (and thus what most Might and Magic VIII characters, including Escaton himself believes) is wrong.

At the same time, it is also clear that they were wrong about the Kreegans perishing twice. They were wrong about them perishing before the reckoning (Might and Magic VIII) and wrong about them perishing *in* the reckoning.

The demons 'rebel' against the necromancers because they sense Kalibarr is weak- they do not 'invade' from the fiery realm (at least not yet, you have to wait for Heroes V for that!).

Corlagon; the Kreegans evidently deceived everyone. They faked their own death. The Kreegans evidently deceived the whole world as to their extinction because a world that believes them gone is a world that is most vulnerable to being conquered at some point in the future. And perhaps in an attempt to avoid Escaton destroying the world (and then recreating it, which is the part they have a problem with).

A Devil is not a Kreegan. A Kreegan is a Devil. They only assume physical forms, whether those be high-tech, low-tech, alien, human-like, funny animal-like creatures for one ultimate purpose alone. That is to spread evil, with the ultimate end of transmuting everything in a 'Fiery Realm'. A pure state of 'destruction' in which no creation is allowed to happen, save in order to destroy something that does still exist.

For that is what a world that has truly known the 'dominion of the Kreegans' is. A fiery lake uninhabitable even to the forms that the Kreegans assumed in order to conquer it.

If their forms fail in their task, they will be destroyed in turn, but the Kreegans as such will always survive. Their claim to actually be their forms is a lie itself, a lie that allows them to form alliances with evil beings of a more natural (or undead) kind. The final realization of the lies that are their bodies is the destruction of them; by dying they are shown to be destroyed, to be destroyed leads to a sense of victory among their enemies, which allows new divisions to arise among their enemies, which the Kreegans can arise again to exploit.

Consider, if people knew that the Kreegans are nothing but weapons at the service of the transmutation of all things into pure fiery absolute uniformity, would not then every force, of man, animal or nature rebel against their very presence?

Corlagon wrote: Nicolai believes the Reckoning was actually just the Kreegans getting their revenge by blowing up Castle Ironfist because he has no better understanding of what happened to the world. Just look at H4 - it caught everyone by surprise. He still thinks Enroth exists and that's he's just on another continent or something (and this was intentional by the MM9 developers, not an explanation I'm conjuring up).

No he doesn't say the Kreegans blew up Castle Ironfist. He believes that the Capital was under attack and as you rightly put it, he doesn't know what really happened. He reckons probably that the Kreegans had cast the earthquake spell prior to their invasion of the capital.

But what he thinks still reveals the situation in Enroth prior to the reckoning.



It says TOOK, not BLEW UP. The Kreegans were running around in Enroth before the Reckoning. If they weren't, then why would he automatically assume that they had took the capital?

If there is no enemy there is no war, if there is no war there is no taking over of capitals.

Logically then not only were the Kreegans not destroyed, they were in the process of invading Enroth immediately before the reckoning.

Because we all know that communication was so fast in the middle ages that Nicolai would be aware of any faction being almost destroyed almost immediately.

And the Venom spawn and some other assorted demons where actually not Kreegans, from what i can tell in H3 only the Devils where.

Plus, you guys are ignoring the fact that a weak and disorganized Kreegan presence might not be enough to trigger any contingencies the Ancients left.

You sort of have a point regarding Nicolai's account, but I implore you to use some parsimony here. Nicolai doesn't even know what world he's on. He has been anticipating a Kreegan attack for some time and is paranoically trying to convince all of Drangheim that they'll invade at any minute.
He isn't a reliable source. The fact that he believes Devils took Castle Ironfist doesn't mean they actually did. To construe that it is ironclad proof that the Kreegans re-invaded Enroth is pure fanfiction.

About Gauldoth's campaign, okay, I'll say it again. The remaining Kreegans "retreated to the safety of another realm", leaving planet Enroth in 1171 AS. Therefore, they were exterminated in time for MM8. The common peasantry of the world weren't fully aware of this, hence Gauldoth's comment. (Okay, the hero of MM8 was very aware, but s/he'd been dealing with Elgar Fellmoon and his worldwide network of intelligence-gatherers for months, so that's hardly a standard example).

Therefore, there is no real disagreement between the two games. If you are trying to tell me that Escaton was wrong/deceived in MM8 (!!), well, what can I say?

Regarding your reiterated stuff about the nature of the Kreegans. It's all wrong. I think we've collectively asked you to play MM6 or MM8 about 20 times already because it will enlighten you on this matter. But for your convenience, here are some of the most essential quotes you missed (and please, don't attempt to theorycraft them away, they are reliable and indisputable):

Melian, Guardian of Enroth (MM6) wrote:Though my memory has been damaged by Archibald, I can still remember the danger that our ancient enemy, the Kreegan, pose to our world. The Kreegan first appeared roughly 1500 years ago, attacking outlying colonies and stealing their resources. It was thought at the time they simply needed certain minerals, and could be reasoned with, but this was not the case. Their life cycle forces them to breed until the world cannot support their numbers, then they send ships off to other worlds to renew the cycle. Their attacks against the empire of the Ancients disrupted the network of shipping and communications that held us all together, causing the Silence that marks the first year of our modern calendar. Without support from the homeworlds, our fledgling technology failed, bringing us to this sorry state. I would help rebuild our technology, but I seem to have become a religious figure in the minds of many people, and very few visit me or understand what I have to offer. Perhaps this Kreegan crisis we face will bring people to their senses--as long as we survive it.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:In the time since the Silence, your world has lost knowledge of the Kreegan's origin. That they resemble the devils of myth has been enough for you, and indeed, "devils" is what most call them. The truth is they came from the beyond. Before they attacked us, my masters had no knowledge of them.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:The Kreegans infest our worlds and spread if they can. It would seem in an endless universe that they could expand in another direction than ours. But they have not made this choice so we must defend ourselves from them.

Escaton (MM8) wrote:If it were not for the Kreegans and the state of war they impose, my masters could rebuild the Web of Worlds and lift what you call "The Silence." My masters have attempted to rebuild the Web many times, but the Kreegans always destroy it. Now they have concluded that the Kreegans must be entirely eliminated or the golden civilization will never rise again. It is to fulfill this purpose that I have been created.

Greg Fulton (NWC employee) wrote:Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons.

And this one might as well have been personally written just for you:

Roland Ironfist (MM8) wrote:Did you know I was their captive for over six years? At first, I thought they were devils from hell, but now I am not so sure. They looked like devils surely, but did not act as demons. No, I think they were but another type of monstrous race, like ogres or goblins. Regardless, devils or not, I am glad the world is rid of them!

Yea, Slayer, you're still making things up... They're not shapeshifters. They look like demons and fly in ships that look like asteroids. They could have just bombarded the Fiery realm and hence the Undead there. Or maybe Gauldoth's master created all of them. Or both.
And they're really not that smart. They're sentient, but their society is much like ants. There's no way workers could feign death or shapeshift.

Corlagon, Melian? Interesting, I don't remember the name. So he was the Guardian of Enroth? It seemed to me more like a computer than an actual Guardian... Also, what are the guardians of other planets? We know it's the Dragon Pharaoh in both XEEN sides, and Sheltem was the Guardian of Terra, but what about all others?