I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Pol]

Once I will do a time and read it.

If this is how is going discussion
when both are perfect debaters,
I don't wish to see the other variant.
Thumbs Up for everyone.

[winterfate]

I did it (created a poll for mock battles; #1 is the 3 Black Dragons vs the 40 Blood Fury situation argued in this thread).

Let's see what the other members have to say (and see if this endless argument can reach a conclusion please?).

The thread is here: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=5246

"I'm just a pacifistic person at heart...that's why these vicious cycle type of discussions drive me crazy ...too much bickering!"

[Mytical]

Ok before I state my opinons I want to make some things clear (in case somebody lives under a rock or hasn't read my posts before). I am not a great player, in fact I may be one of the bottom 50% (and a lot has to do with the fact I am really unlucky with skills, abilities, perks, and such). Sylvan is my prefered town (tied now with the dwarves but that is another matter). Dungeon would be about my 2 or 3 depending (sometimes inferno sometimes dungeon). The above being said I would say however, that I would be more then happy to take up the challenge of meeting Banedon in a map of his choice (which since I don't play MP a lot he will probably know much better then I) and use dungeon against his Sylvan. Now while I will most likely loose as I am not the best player, he might find bloodfuries can be considered killers (note the following) SOMETIMES. It is simple a human player ignores the Furies, they get hurt, if they target the furies that leaves another stack unmolested and they get hurt. That is the key to the furies, danged if you do, danged if you don't. Now I am not a master of debate, not near as good as Banedon or DL or even JJ. There is one thing I will add however. I play only AI, but that does not mean I do not know how a human can react to a situation. I have the best qualification on that possible...I am a human. Any creature with no retal can not be ingored (well maybe kitties but that is another matter). This is why Sprites drop like flies, furies are dangerous (although not defined as 'killers' in all sense of the word).

Now DL, You define Furies killers, where I do not, except within the confines of tier 2 ONLY. In the 2nd tier yes they are killers, in the grand scheme not so much. There are many ways to counter them without directly targetting them. Meteor swarm, Chain Lightning, Fireball (and any spell empowered is even better), wall of fire (their hit and return then hurts them more then helps them), and a host of other non targetted things can make furies not so much of a threat. Especially because of their hp. I can kill furies without singling them out at all, or if I do there wont be enough left of them to matter. Also rangers Avenger skill can be useful here (especially with rain of arrows and imbue). So there are a dozen ways to counter furies without wasting units to target them specifically. (Yes I know I just gave Banedon the way to smack down my furies without much trouble, but this had to be said ).

[DaemianLucifer]

I did it

And you did it wrong.The question wasnt wholl win,but whos more usefull.

[Mytical]

Edited my post above so the pronoun police don't arrest me. Appologies to Banedon, I accidently posted she instead of he. A persons gender has nothing to do with arguments or skill; however, but it still was insensitive. My humble appologizes for the mispronouns.

[DaemianLucifer]

Now DL, You define Furies killers, where I do not, except within the confines of tier 2 ONLY. In the 2nd tier yes they are killers, in the grand scheme not so much. There are many ways to counter them without directly targetting them. Meteor swarm, Chain Lightning, Fireball (and any spell empowered is even better), wall of fire (their hit and return then hurts them more then helps them), and a host of other non targetted things can make furies not so much of a threat. Especially because of their hp. I can kill furies without singling them out at all, or if I do there wont be enough left of them to matter. Also rangers Avenger skill can be useful here (especially with rain of arrows and imbue). So there are a dozen ways to counter furies without wasting units to target them specifically. (Yes I know I just gave Banedon the way to smack down my furies without much trouble, but this had to be said ).

Funny thing here that all of the above you said doesnt include haven and inferno,so no you didnt help him at all.

Oh,and I left Banedon post for the end,because Im still typing it(Im so |334 at this )

But the funniest thing of them all is that I myself made an argument somewhere else that can shut me up in the blink of an eye,yet no one pooled it hereIll gladly do it myself if you aks me nicelly though

[Banedon]

Take your time DaemianLucifer. I take well over 40 minutes to make these posts as well, and they occupy my mind throughout the day. Thankfully I don't have class these days.

winterfate - I wish that very much, that some other member who's well-versed in Heroes 5 can come here and end this debate by pointing out in conclusive terms where both our mistakes were. Where can I find one though? It's difficult to ask someone to read through 7 pages of heated debate...

Mytical - A lot depends on the situation. There will be times when Blood Furies, while finesse, will be the first target. That's because there are no other targets. If Inferno and Dungeon clash in the second week, before large numbers of Grim Raiders and Shadow Matriaches and Deep Hydras are around, the first target is certainly the Blood Furies. This doesn't mean they are killers; it just means there aren't any other units to target.

I don't really see what a game with you could prove because you will find me targetting the Blood Furies. If you want however we could try a theoretical battle; I'd suggest Duel Mode.

PS: I really don't mind you calling me 'she', I do feel distinctively feminine sometimes
PPS: I don't think you're as bad a Heroes 5 player as you make yourself out to be. At least you can acknowledge that there are better players than you, and your words make more sense than DaemianLucifer's.
PPPS: There's a huge difference between playing the AI and playing Humans. Playing Humans force you to think up new strategies and counters; playing the AI will not. If I never played Heroes 4 against SmokingBarrel and Vulcanic, I would never have gone past the single-hero-superhero strategy.

Vulcanic said he doesn't really care about whether Lethos stayed in the castle for a week, so he won't be posting here. I still have two eyewitnesses but one of them refuses to testify Well at least SmokingBarrel did write something.

[Mytical]

Haven's counter to furies. Well besides mass haste (which means their creatures act more often) there is balista skills (which means creatures don't have to target the furies the balista can do all the damage (at least till destroyed). There is also training (making all those hordes of peasants into marksmen and splitting the marksmen (cause you have no peasants and wouldn't want them in there anyhow) to target two seperate creatures (one fury and one something nastier). Also there is the dive bomb of griffins, target where the furies are and if they don't move they get dive bombed and are pretty much out for the count (griffins are not that big of a loss to sacrifice for the furies). There is also retribution (or the skill that allows the hero to attack when a creature attacks a stack if it is not called that) which basically gives the hero a chance to retal vs a no retal creature. There is the ability to give creatures extra retals so you can use a creature like the paladins and when they are ganged up on for revenge they just keep retaling (sure they go down, but how many do they take with them? And then your AA can just resurrect some and start all over yay!). I am sure I am missing a few here as well.

Inferno's counter would be Succubi Mistress (she can target those furies AND still hit other creatures to boot) Cerebi (no retal vs no retal but one is tier 3 while 1 is tier 2). Mark of the damned. Gating is always a big help, and various skills can also be of use here. So there are counters to the fury problem even in Inferno. Does this mean that I don't see them as very useful and situational killers, absolutely not. Killers all the time..no I don't see that.

[DaemianLucifer]

Do you have to stoop so low as to argue over individual words? That when one says "I can put Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords on opposite sides of the battlefield" does not mean that he will (or at least, that there is a very good chance of that happening)? Do you go against common sense, and do you actually want to sound credible?

I dont even want to point out how ridiculous this sounds from youJust reread your posts,please.Especially the one where you said "I can kill your furries before they go three times,even if I loose the entire army".

It is a fact that the AI is far inferior to Humans. It is also a fact that playing against the AI hardly requires any deep strategy. I could annihilate the AI in Heroes 4 with a single Might Superhero but I can hardly scratch a human player with that same strategy. So what? Does that make the single Superhero strategy powerful in MP?

Funny thing you pulling other hero games.As for the superhero strategy I never used it against a human.Not even on my first hot seat.And there goes your arguing that playing against the AI cannot show you how a human would react in the same instance.

If you lack even the common sense to see that the very focus of this debate has been and always will be in human vs. human, then I wouldn't be surprised if you posted 'since when did I say this is H5? I meant H3'.

No it wasnt always human versus human because we did focus half of it on the cultist map.

I tell you, the more you irk me the worse the response will be.

Yes,I see that.If it wasnt for that Id drop this long ago

You did it against the AI. You did not do it in a serious match. If it were the finals of a $100,000 tournament and the battle hinged on whether you cast Quicksand, I can give you excellent odds that you would not. If Sir Alex Ferguson wanted to experiment with his lineups, he would not do so in a crucial match against Chelsea.

I used quicksand even against a human in few situations.Trust me,its an excelent spell against walkers.There are better spells,true,but that still doesnt mean quicksand is a good spell as well.

But youre missing the point completelly.You were saying that just because I said I never used chain lightning before Id never use it in the future.I showed you that that logic is flawed.In fact,you showed the same thing yourself above,about your example with HIV.

Where did you see 3 weeks' worth of Master Hunters in week 5? Or a Sylvan player that does not have Castle to boost the growth? You are exaggerating, and I blew holes in that exaggeration. Don't use exaggerations so freely; it weakens your case. How can anyone expect your words to be credible now?

If you kill 3 weeks of master hunters,youll still weaken the army for 3 weeks of master hunters,no matter if it has 6,15 or 100 weeks worth of them.And what did you say about arguing over individual words a bit back?

The editor refuses to work, so I am unable to test it. And so what if I can only protect one creature? The immunity, if it protects my most important stack, would be totally valuable. However this is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Honestly,would you cast immunity on any of your stacks when youre fighting warlock?Wouldnt it be better to cast a mass buff,or to imbue your ballista?Yet you go acussing me about using shoddy eamples.

There're two options I have that I'm pondering over DaemianLucifer. I'd appreciate it if you could help me decide which is more attractive. Should I admit I was wrong, use the 18 Cavaliers and see how you deal with those Cavaliers with 5 weeks' worth of Blood Furies or should I follow your style and maintain I used the word 'Paladins' not Cavaliers? Either would put you in hot soup. Tell me, which is more attractive?

How Id deal with 18 cavaliers?(chain)Lightning comes to mind.Circle of winter as well.Implosion too.Furries and lizards as well.

I can't remember and I no longer have the saved game. Bet you cannot give a way to preserve the Blood Furies instead of the Raider however - even with Magical Immunity the Ai has Ranged creatures that will shoot down the Blood Furies.

See thats why I said to use shadya,because shooters wont do so much damage to her like they did to aaeglr.

I was just showing you that I can incapacitate units without killing them. I can incapacitate your Blood Furies by binding them with Ancient Treants. If I use Cerberi I will kill them of course. Trade your Blood Furies for my Cerberi (after I Gate, of course)? Interested?

Interesting how you dance around it first saying you will incapacitate furries with cerberi,then you say how incapacitate is not the same as killing,then you go on to admit that to incapacitate furries you have to kill them.But I showed you that cerberi can kill cca 40% of the furries,not more,so then how are you to incapacitate them with your cerberi?Especially if you gate(without urgash call),and allow me to go once more.

I suddenly wonder why I'm even debating this.

I wonder that myself.Still is fun though

As for Black Dragons, it's a simple matter of seeing if two creatures are highlighted from the square you are attacking from.

Funny for sprites you plan a few turns in advance,yet with dragons you just toss them in the battle without thought?Tsk,tsk.

Assassins are slow. They will also run out of shots. Does that make them melee units?

Tsk,tsk.Grasping for straws and twisting words.

Do you need a lesson in English DaemianLucifer? Look carefully at the quote:

Show me the quote where I said that Blood Furies die quicker than Master Hunters and Paladins against a hero. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that. If anything, they'll die faster because they are dangerous killer units and warrant fast targetting.

The second sentence used the pronoun 'they'. What does 'they' normally refer to? It refers to the subject that is closer to the sentence. What is closer to the sentence? Obviously the subject 'Master Hunters and Paladins'. I have not changed my words at all. Your brain has simply gone short-circuit.

It still reffers to furries not dying faster than master hunters and paladins,while your second quote was quite the opposite,that furries do die faster than master hunters and paladins.But thanks for agreeing with me that furries do last aproximatelly the same time as paladins and master hunters.

The Griffins won't be blocking the way to the Paladins. You yourself gave formations that make it impossible to block the way to the Paladins.

And yet you still say that griffins are a support for paladins because they can soak some damage intended towards them.

No normal hero can win a 1-Zombie-against-20-Titans fight if the Titans are split into three stacks. Kill two Titan stacks in a spell and the last one will kill the Zombies. You can't kill all three Titan stacks without killing your own Zombies.

Your first example was about 3 titans and 20 zombies which can be done with high enough hero level,even without spells.

I asked SmokingBarrel to make the post above; Vulcanic will be doing the same shortly. I have two eyewitnesses. Where are yours? I'd give you the saved game as well but I've deleted them.

Wasting the time of others so you can prove to me what I already believed?Tsk,tsk.

Your argument is that they are finesse because they have to 'dance'. They must move across the battlefield in order to get to their targets. Hence 100 Archangels are still finesse.

And I did specifically say its not reaching for the enemy thats dancing,but dancing around your target and along the enemy lines that.But go ahead,call angels finesse if you want.I dont care.

Because the Peasants will be doing significant amounts of killing until you get enough Marksmen into play. You have to classify them as killers because you have no other units in play. Sprites kill of course. So do every other level 1 unit in the first turn of play. Does that make them all killers?

I dont remember leading only peasants ever.Yet you acuse me of using examples no human would do in reality.Tsk,tsk.

It need not be a big stack of guardians. Lots of Marksmen are good enough to kill your Blood Furies. By the time I have 100 Black Dragons I can undoubtedly kill 1000 Blood Furies without losses, by the way.

I wanted to do a simulated battle against 49 marksmen split in three,but I saw that theres no point.Marksmen have the initiative of 8,thus furries will(unless very unlucky)act twice before the marksmen.Coupled by raiders,there is no way that you can loose a furry.Still saying that lots of marksmen is enough?Care to use a different creature?

That is against the AI and not against a human; that does not apply as well in the final battle. Blood Furies die faster / run a greater risk of dying in neutral battles. Agreed?

Without tactics,yes they die.With tactics,no not a very high risk,unless against big enough stacks of certain creatures.

Your original post on page 15 was directed at the final battle as well, because no sane player will be losing Paladins to neutrals. If the possibility is even there, you were fighting another hero in the final battle.

Yup,and I said that furries survive aproximatelly as long as paladins.You disputed,but thanks for agreeing with me a bit before in this post.

If you change the battle above and give me the task of killing all your Blood Furies, I'll gladly continue the battle. After the Gating I charge my Cerberi, Nightmares and Archdevils all at the Blood Furies. Succubi Mistresses attack the Blood Furies. Hero casts Teleport on Pit Lords if available and hits the Blood Furies. If not available hero casts Lightning Bolt on Blood Furies, stunning them. Pit Lords toss Meteor Shower. All the Blood Furies die. GG.

Funny thing how you are still ignoring my post that you wont have any devils,nor fiends.Plus,is this the one battle where you kill my furries at the cost of your entire army?Yet you are acusing me of posting shoddy examples.Tsk,tsk.

And yet you argue that your heroes stay outside unmolested. That is plain buggy. A human player would note his win objective - kill Shadya or Raelag - and that Shadya is outside the castle. Bye bye Shadya.

Thats exactly why I dont play it.

Read the post closely. I said the traits are the more important factor. Numbers matter of course but the traits are more important. In the case of Blood Furies the numbers work against you; Blood Furies have abject growth rates.

Yup,traits are the more important factor,but not the most important factor.And the growth rate of furries just shows that numbers are very much important as well.

You gave me the examples and then said it is possible to block the routes to the Paladins with Imperial Griffins - something not possible unless the Imperial Griffins are directly beside the Paladins, which won't be happening because of Battle Dive.

And you still are saying that griffins are a support to the paladins?

If you box them in, you suffer from the Battle Dive and the Paladins can charge the Pit Lords. Don't tell me one square is enough. What if your opponent Battle Dives the empty square? How will you know what he is doing?

Yup,and how will the opponent know to target the empty square?Its a gamble for both.A battle of intuition and luck.Lots of like tactics phase.

As for Haste, he will be trading his hero's move for your Inquistor's, which is certainly fine.

No,not trading because I said mass haste and mass confusion.So I wouldnt call it fine.

Besides,your original post said haste with hero and endurance with inquisitors.Yet you acuse me of changing my words.Tsk,tsk.

Are you telling me Nightmares and Cerberi are killers? I have never accepted that Furies are killers. Only you have. From your point of view - I'm putting myself in your shoes here - you will be using your killer units (Blood Furies) to occupy your opponent's finesse (Cerberi and Nightmares).

And they will do that just by existing on the battlefield while still doing damage in a lizard-furry tandem.And I never called nightmares nor cerberi killers,but you have called cerberi killers in the begining.

Nightmares are finesse because of their high speed. They can be used for multiple strategic purposes, of which blocking Ranged units is the most obvious.

Blocking ranged units with nightmares? How are you blocking a boxed ranged unit with a large creature?

You have not countered that Master Hunters are killers. You have again invoked the example of a Warlock. What about the other races? Can the other races not charge Sylvan?

I never did say that master hunters are killers,so why would I want to do this?Inferno can because they can because of the gating.They wont charge in before fodder arives.Academy can,as you pointed out yourself.And sylvan can as well.Haven can focus completelly on its marksmen thus it will be a ranged duel between marksmen and hunters(but dont go countering this point because this is something Id never engage myself in,Im just finding possible counters just against hunters,not the real counters).Necro can also mark his skeletons and then raise them and raise them.

PS: You have once again avoided the point that your Paladins ARE supported.

How?You yourself said(multiple times)that griffins cant block a single attacker from reaching paladins?Thus paladins will die.Some support.

You were the one who classified them as supporters. Don't escape the noose. Answer that.

And you classified them as fodder,so?Dont escape the noose.Answer that.And you originally classified cerberi as killers.Dont escape the noose.Answer that.Yet you are attacking me for changing my oppinions.Tsk,tsk.

[Mytical]

Hmm may be asking for it (since I am not as skilled at debating as these two) but here goes. You asked for references how Haven and/or Inferno can counter those furies without actually targetting (only) the furies. I gave you examples DL . Before you ask, yes this is actually tried and true (though admittedly only against AI and that may be moot depending) but you don't have to target furies (only) to defeat them (they do have rather low hp). Now something like those 18 paladins even empowered implosion (might I add it is a single target direct attack) can sometimes fail to kill all of them. Paladins are pure killers because they have to be targeted or they hurt you, a lot (armeggedon withstanding because it can take out everything hehe) while you don't have to target (only) furies and can kill quite a bit of them.

[Banedon]

I dont even want to point out how ridiculous this sounds from youJust reread your posts,please.Especially the one where you said "I can kill your furries before they go three times,even if I loose the entire army".

Please don't take it out of the context. That example was meant to show you how the Blood Furies stay alive not because they have godly defensive capabilities but rather because they are not targetted - nothing more. If you would contest that the Blood Furies stay alive even if they are targetted then you can use that example. If you do not, don't.

Funny thing you pulling other hero games.As for the superhero strategy I never used it against a human.Not even on my first hot seat.And there goes your arguing that playing against the AI cannot show you how a human would react in the same instance.

A strategy is a strategy is a strategy, even if you never use it. And explain how the AI shows you how a human will react. Put the single-hero-superhero strategy against the AI in Heroes 4 and it will fluster and die a horrible death; put a human in command and he will neutralize you completely.

No it wasnt always human versus human because we did focus half of it on the cultist map.

And The Cultists involves a lot of fighting against Inferno armies? And you get to control Haven units?

I used quicksand even against a human in few situations.Trust me,its an excelent spell against walkers.There are better spells,true,but that still doesnt mean quicksand is a good spell as well.

But youre missing the point completelly.You were saying that just because I said I never used chain lightning before Id never use it in the future.I showed you that that logic is flawed.In fact,you showed the same thing yourself above,about your example with HIV.

Quicksand is an excellent spell, useful against humans. No contest. But your logic holds only in relaxed situations. If we got into a serious fight before you saw the merits of Chain Lightning, I doubt very much you would cast it at all.

This is out of the context and I will not pursue this point any further.

If you kill 3 weeks of master hunters,youll still weaken the army for 3 weeks of master hunters,no matter if it has 6,15 or 100 weeks worth of them.And what did you say about arguing over individual words a bit back?

You do not kill 3 weeks' of Master Hunters. I showed you as much - with Castle growth you kill two. It blows your exaggeration into deep waters. I don't see anything as well regarding individual words. Show me where it is.

Honestly,would you cast immunity on any of your stacks when youre fighting warlock?Wouldnt it be better to cast a mass buff,or to imbue your ballista?Yet you go acussing me about using shoddy eamples.

You bet I would. When Vittorio fought MMR he would have done very well not to use any mass buffs but to rely on Magical Immunity instead.

How Id deal with 18 cavaliers?(chain)Lightning comes to mind.Circle of winter as well.Implosion too.Furries and lizards as well.

If they're magic-immune, there go your spells, and how many Blood Furies and Grim Raiders do you think you might have in week 5? It's 18 Cavaliers.

See thats why I said to use shadya,because shooters wont do so much damage to her like they did to aaeglr.

The shooters don't damage Raelag much at all either - half damage from range, half damage again from castle walls. It is the Assassins' poison that is killing.

Interesting how you dance around it first saying you will incapacitate furries with cerberi,then you say how incapacitate is not the same as killing,then you go on to admit that to incapacitate furries you have to kill them.But I showed you that cerberi can kill cca 40% of the furries,not more,so then how are you to incapacitate them with your cerberi?Especially if you gate(without urgash call),and allow me to go once more.

I will be using my Cerberi to kill your Blood Furies, just not all of them in a hit as you seemed to think. 40% is a great deal, incidentally. It may not incapacitate your Blood Fury stack, but it chops off one arm.

Funny for sprites you plan a few turns in advance,yet with dragons you just toss them in the battle without thought?Tsk,tsk.

If you're just worrying about how much damage you deal, who cares? Incidentally, I think more than you do. You charge in Paladins unsupported. Even though I don't calculate everything I know better than moving the Black Dragons in alone.

Tsk,tsk.Grasping for straws and twisting words.

You were the first to say that Pit Lords are melee units. They're casters, and casters are essentially ranged.

It still reffers to furries not dying faster than master hunters and paladins,while your second quote was quite the opposite,that furries do die faster than master hunters and paladins.But thanks for agreeing with me that furries do last aproximatelly the same time as paladins and master hunters.

The first refers to Blood Furies dying faster than Master Hunters and Paladins. The second does the same. The Blood Furies last longer than Paladins and Master Hunters in the end battle the same way Zombies last longer than Blood Furies in the end battle.

But let's stop grasping at straws and twisting words. Blood Furies die slower than Paladins and Master Hunters not because they have some godly defensive capabilities but rather because they are not targetted. Agreed? If you do I've just put one over your head.

And yet you still say that griffins are a support for paladins because they can soak some damage intended towards them.

Let's look carefully at the entire matter. Griffins 'soak' damage indirectly by:

1. Forcing the opponent not to move. This is entirely possible; if, for example the Succubi Mistresses are still surrounded after the initial charge with the Imperial Griffins to move soon. The Inferno player may very well choose not to relinquish the blockade, and so where a creature would have attacked the Paladins, they are not attacked.
2. Decreasing the numbers of the attacking stacks. If the Imperial Griffins hit the Succubi Mistresses with Battle Dive, they've dropped those Succubi Mistresses' numbers dramatically which in turn decreases the damage they deal. That's soaking damage...indirectly.

Supporting your units is hardly the simple-minded 'take hits for them'.

Your first example was about 3 titans and 20 zombies which can be done with high enough hero level,even without spells.

I later exaggerated it, the purpose of which was to show just how little you convinced me. This is out of the context and I shall not pursue this point further.

Wasting the time of others so you can prove to me what I already believed?Tsk,tsk.

Now waste the time of others so you can prove to me something which I do not believe.

I dont remember leading only peasants ever.Yet you acuse me of using examples no human would do in reality.Tsk,tsk.

Did I say you're using only Peasants? No. I just said Peasants will be doing killing. Don't misread my posts again.

I wanted to do a simulated battle against 49 marksmen split in three,but I saw that theres no point.Marksmen have the initiative of 8,thus furries will(unless very unlucky)act twice before the marksmen.Coupled by raiders,there is no way that you can loose a furry.Still saying that lots of marksmen is enough?Care to use a different creature?

Act twice does not mean hit twice. The Marksmen stacks may be out of range. Don't tell me you have Grim Raiders. It's early-game, and I recall you are prioritizing Deep Hydras.

Without tactics,yes they die.With tactics,no not a very high risk,unless against big enough stacks of certain creatures.

Really? Who's to say that the random nature of the initiative system cannot make one Marksman stack move before your Blood Furies move twice? Tactics or no tactics, you are going to lose creatures.

Funny thing how you are still ignoring my post that you wont have any devils,nor fiends.Plus,is this the one battle where you kill my furries at the cost of your entire army?Yet you are acusing me of posting shoddy examples.Tsk,tsk.

Your example was an oversimplification. I killed all your Blood Furies with my Succubi Mistresses. Are you going to believe me? Of course not.

Oh, and you are again taking it out of context. I'm just going to copy paste. That example was meant to show you how the Blood Furies stay alive not because they have godly defensive capabilities but rather because they are not targetted - nothing more. If you would contest that the Blood Furies stay alive even if they are targetted then you can use that example. If you do not, don't.

Thats exactly why I dont play it.

You admit you were wrong about taking the mines, about being able to hold both castles, about everything you had to say about me beating The Cultists the hard way?

Yup,traits are the more important factor,but not the most important factor.And the growth rate of furries just shows that numbers are very much important as well.

The traits are the most important factor. I posted how 3 weeks' worth of Archmagi are more dangerous than 4 weeks' Blood Furies. How can it be, if their reproduction rates are the same?

Yup,and how will the opponent know to target the empty square?Its a gamble for both.A battle of intuition and luck.Lots of like tactics phase.

By leaving only one square the chance your opponent hits with Battle Dive is 50%. Incidentally, you do not know at all which square your opponent Battle Dives - he might be targetting the Pit Lords. What now? It may be a battle of intuition and luck, but the less squares you leave your creatures to maneveur, the worse off for you.

And they will do that just by existing on the battlefield while still doing damage in a lizard-furry tandem.And I never called nightmares nor cerberi killers,but you have called cerberi killers in the begining.

You expect me to move Cerberi and Nightmares against your Blood Furies if your Grim Raiders are beside? Surely not. I'd much rather target your Grim Raiders instead.

Blocking ranged units with nightmares? How are you blocking a boxed ranged unit with a large creature?

By removing the blockers?

I never did say that master hunters are killers,so why would I want to do this?Inferno can because they can because of the gating.They wont charge in before fodder arives.Academy can,as you pointed out yourself.And sylvan can as well.Haven can focus completelly on its marksmen thus it will be a ranged duel between marksmen and hunters(but dont go countering this point because this is something Id never engage myself in,Im just finding possible counters just against hunters,not the real counters).Necro can also mark his skeletons and then raise them and raise them.

Are you denying Master Hunters being killers?

Inferno rushes. Master Hunters get full damage. Academy might not rush, but they may come to regret it. Sylvan against Sylvan is not a concern. Haven will lose the Ranged duel as the Warding Arrow triggers a bit too often. Necropolis cannot rely on only the Skeleton Archers to beat both Master Hunters and Druid Elders unless there is a gross number of them (after all, which level 1 unit would fight level 3s and 4s?).

And you classified them as fodder,so?Dont escape the noose.Answer that.And you originally classified cerberi as killers.Dont escape the noose.Answer that.Yet you are attacking me for changing my oppinions.Tsk,tsk.

Under the current classification of killer / supporter / finesse / cannon fodder, the best place to put Deep Hydras is certainly 'cannon fodder', with the second best being 'killer' and the third being 'finesse'. If you add in 'weak killer' then that would be the outright place to put them. Amazingly enough you put them under 'supporter'. Your 'tsk tsk' is only matched by my 'tsk tsk tsk'.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm trying to get in a few points here.
Blood Furies are a level 2 unit that offers nearly every tactical opportunity for a Warlock except in siege battles. Again, a level 2 unit. Additionally the Dungeon offers a chance on each map to up the weekly production. Even one may make a difference. They ARE a serious active threat which is true for Marksmen as well and means, in any army battle you have to take them into consideration IMMEDIATELY (which makes all the difference, especially when led by the hero with a special in them).
We have Plague Zombies which are one hell of a good unit in masses (again, especially when led by the hero), but not IMMEADIATELY which means you can disregard them initially.
The same is true for Demons (the gated stack of them may be a nuisance), for Gargoyles not so much.
War Dancers are in the middle because their special forces consideration. Lastly Spear Wielders are tactically interesting with their special.
What that means is simply, that even though Furies are a level 2 unit only you'll have to take them into consideration because they can set a very high number of potentially very hurting picks.
If you are intent on killing them you can. A stack of Cavaliers will kill them immediately with one hit. If that happens it will probably cost you the Cavaliers as well within the next cycle of turns because they would be deep in enenmy territory and subject to attacks from Hydras, Minotaurs and if necessary everyone else.
In any normal game, before the first Cavalier or Paladin even enters the battlefield the Furies already have established themselves as a killer unit in the first weeks.
So you could safely say, Blood Furies are a killer unit within the first 4 weeks. Later on they lose that status due to heavier units entering the battlefields. After that they are a needle in the flesh.

[DaemianLucifer]

Please don't take it out of the context. That example was meant to show you how the Blood Furies stay alive not because they have godly defensive capabilities but rather because they are not targetted - nothing more.

You have the audacity to ask me not to take your example out of contest,yet you not just took my example out of contest but continue pressing on how Id be using it,even though from the start I said Id never do it?For shame...

If you would contest that the Blood Furies stay alive even if they are targetted then you can use that example.

I never even once said that.I always said that you wont have the creatures to target them.

A strategy is a strategy is a strategy, even if you never use it. And explain how the AI shows you how a human will react. Put the single-hero-superhero strategy against the AI in Heroes 4 and it will fluster and die a horrible death; put a human in command and he will neutralize you completely.

Yet you say you think in advance.How come while using a superhero strategy against the AI you never thought of ways to counter it?Whenever I play against AI I always think of ways how to counter myself,and ways to counter those counters as well.Later,when I do play against a human I can put those ideas in action and see how good they really are.

And The Cultists involves a lot of fighting against Inferno armies? And you get to control Haven units?

Ill let you answer this one yourself,and Ill even bold the changes for your convenience:

Do you need a lesson in English Banedon? Look carefully at the quote:

No it wasnt always human versus human because we did focus half of it on the cultist map.

The second part of the sentence used the noun 'half'. What does 'half' normally refer to?

Quicksand is an excellent spell, useful against humans. No contest. But your logic holds only in relaxed situations. If we got into a serious fight before you saw the merits of Chain Lightning, I doubt very much you would cast it at all.

And I doubt very much that Id play a game that I play for fun in a nonrelaxed situation.

You do not kill 3 weeks' of Master Hunters. I showed you as much - with Castle growth you kill two. It blows your exaggeration into deep waters. I don't see anything as well regarding individual words. Show me where it is.

Castle growth doesnt change the base number of creatures you get in one week(or one weeks population for short),it only gives you bonus creatures equal to that one weeks population.So you will still kill 3 weeks population with that spell.

Oh,and what were you talking about using examples out of context?

You bet I would. When Vittorio fought MMR he would have done very well not to use any mass buffs but to rely on Magical Immunity instead.

Um,that battle was against academy,not warlock.And I asked you wheter youd use MI against a warlock.

If they're magic-immune, there go your spells, and how many Blood Furies and Grim Raiders do you think you might have in week 5? It's 18 Cavaliers.

So what if theire MI?Chain lightning will still stun them,deal them half damage,and deal damage to 3 more of your creatures.Cicrcle of winter will still freeze your cavaliers,deal them half damage and deal damage to a few more of your creatures.And thats only if IM doesnt nullify MI completelly like adicto said.

The shooters don't damage Raelag much at all either - half damage from range, half damage again from castle walls. It is the Assassins' poison that is killing.

Yes,and unlike your raiders you can split your furries,thus even if you loose 3 of the 4 stacks you had,youll still have survivors.

I will be using my Cerberi to kill your Blood Furies, just not all of them in a hit as you seemed to think. 40% is a great deal, incidentally. It may not incapacitate your Blood Fury stack, but it chops off one arm.

Considering that the first attack of the furries will be at full damage,and the next one will be in conjuction with the raiders....Id focus on raiders sooner than on furries.Plus youll cerberi will be on the mercy of my hydras on one and my minotaurs finishing blow on the other side.So youd sacrifize your whole stack of cerberi,a third level creature,for 40% of my furries,a second level creature?

If you're just worrying about how much damage you deal, who cares? Incidentally, I think more than you do. You charge in Paladins unsupported. Even though I don't calculate everything I know better than moving the Black Dragons in alone.

Tell me how youll support your blackies in a siege?They are the only flier,and youll have to deal with those ranged units somehow.And they wont be grouped toghether because your enemy will know you have AoE spells.

You were the first to say that Pit Lords are melee units. They're casters, and casters are essentially ranged.

Let me use your words here:
Find me the quote where I said pit lords are melee units.Cant find it?You bet.

The first refers to Blood Furies dying faster than Master Hunters and Paladins. The second does the same. The Blood Furies last longer than Paladins and Master Hunters in the end battle the same way Zombies last longer than Blood Furies in the end battle.

With the difference that your zombies will just stand there while the furries will strike you,and very often,doing considerable damage every time.

But let's stop grasping at straws and twisting words. Blood Furies die slower than Paladins and Master Hunters not because they have some godly defensive capabilities but rather because they are not targetted. Agreed?

I always did say that furries survive because they are not targeted.You were the one saying that furries arent killers because AI targets them first,thus they die often.So you do agree with me then?Good to know.

1. Forcing the opponent not to move. This is entirely possible; if, for example the Succubi Mistresses are still surrounded after the initial charge with the Imperial Griffins to move soon. The Inferno player may very well choose not to relinquish the blockade, and so where a creature would have attacked the Paladins, they are not attacked.

Um,why doesnt your opponent move?Griffins are large,so opening a smal gap by moving your imps or demons still doesnt let them pass.I said put succubi in the corner,imps and demons in front,pit fiends next to those,and then the rest.So fiends will remain stationary because paladins will be attacking them(unless you decide to charge my nightmares or cerberi,which I dont see anyone would do),demons will move and strike them,so will cerberi and nightmares.Only the imps will remain useless,and thats not some loss aint it?Or you may decide to charge the devils instead of fiends,but in that case youll have to deal with a massive fireball(or a meteor shower in the case of lords).

2. Decreasing the numbers of the attacking stacks. If the Imperial Griffins hit the Succubi Mistresses with Battle Dive, they've dropped those Succubi Mistresses' numbers dramatically which in turn decreases the damage they deal. That's soaking damage...indirectly.

But the succubi will have a shot before the griffins dive.Or you can decide to move them in the case of having one spare tile.Or,like you said,diving fiends may seem as a better thing to do if they are bigger threat than succubi.

So,how are griffins soaking up damage intended for paladins again?

Now waste the time of others so you can prove to me something which I do not believe.

Ah,but you forget one big thing here:Its my job to irk others. Whats your excuse?

Did I say you're using only Peasants? No. I just said Peasants will be doing killing. Don't misread my posts again.

Lets see:I lead an army(so to speak)of peasants and archers.Who will kill more of the neutrals?Oh peasants for sure,no question about it

Act twice does not mean hit twice. The Marksmen stacks may be out of range. Don't tell me you have Grim Raiders. It's early-game, and I recall you are prioritizing Deep Hydras.

With tactics,act twice does mean hit twice(at least against neutrals).And I still have assassins(poison),and my hero with a nasty spell.

Really? Who's to say that the random nature of the initiative system cannot make one Marksman stack move before your Blood Furies move twice? Tactics or no tactics, you are going to lose creatures.

Youd have to be extremelly unlucky to have two stacks of marksmen act before your furries second turn.If thats not the case,you hit first the one thats closer to the begining of the ATB bar,then the one thats second.

Your example was an oversimplification. I killed all your Blood Furies with my Succubi Mistresses. Are you going to believe me? Of course not.

Oversimplification or not,its much more plausable to kill devils and fiend with your whole army than to kill furries with just your succubi,considering that the armies are evenly matched.

You admit you were wrong about taking the mines, about being able to hold both castles, about everything you had to say about me beating The Cultists the hard way?

And I again have to show you that different words have different meanings."Dont" is not the same as "didnt".I did play it,and I got tired of all the bugs it had,thus I gave up.I wonder where I found the will to play it for so long anyway.

The traits are the most important factor. I posted how 3 weeks' worth of Archmagi are more dangerous than 4 weeks' Blood Furies. How can it be, if their reproduction rates are the same?

And 400 master hunters are more dangerous that 100 druids.How so when druids are a level higher,have higher attack,defense,damage,hit points and 16 master hunters are weaker than 4 druids?

By leaving only one square the chance your opponent hits with Battle Dive is 50%. Incidentally, you do not know at all which square your opponent Battle Dives - he might be targetting the Pit Lords. What now? It may be a battle of intuition and luck, but the less squares you leave your creatures to maneveur, the worse off for you.

Depends really on the creatures.If you really have enough fiends for them to be higher priority for griffins than the succubi(which is usually the case),boxing your succubi is actually better than leaving space for them to manueveur,because,like you said earlier,griffins may pin your army so that moving certain key creatures can be quite dangerous.

You expect me to move Cerberi and Nightmares against your Blood Furies if your Grim Raiders are beside? Surely not. I'd much rather target your Grim Raiders instead.

So would I.But you were the one saying that you can easilly incapacitate my furries using your cerberi.

I never did say that master hunters are killers,so why would I want to do this?Inferno can because they can because of the gating.They wont charge in before fodder arives.Academy can,as you pointed out yourself.And sylvan can as well.Haven can focus completelly on its marksmen thus it will be a ranged duel between marksmen and hunters(but dont go countering this point because this is something Id never engage myself in,Im just finding possible counters just against hunters,not the real counters).Necro can also mark his skeletons and then raise them and raise them.

Are you denying Master Hunters being killers?

Ahem,you quoted me,yet you still are asking that question?Read what you quoted then.

Inferno rushes. Master Hunters get full damage.

To the gated units.

Haven will lose the Ranged duel as the Warding Arrow triggers a bit too often.

Yes well I did say thats not very likelly to happen(if at all),so I see no reason why youd want to dispute something I dont even believe as possible.

Necropolis cannot rely on only the Skeleton Archers to beat both Master Hunters and Druid Elders unless there is a gross number of them (after all, which level 1 unit would fight level 3s and 4s?).

I dont know how necromancy will be changed,but right now you can get enough skeletons to pary these.Depends on the map really.

Under the current classification of killer / supporter / finesse / cannon fodder, the best place to put Deep Hydras is certainly 'cannon fodder', with the second best being 'killer' and the third being 'finesse'. If you add in 'weak killer' then that would be the outright place to put them. Amazingly enough you put them under 'supporter'. Your 'tsk tsk' is only matched by my 'tsk tsk tsk'.

Not weak killers,slow killers.And how do they fit fodder anyway?Fodder does nothing but steal retaliation and die.Hydras dont do that,but they support your back line by focusing on youre enemies chargers.

Oh,and I cannot believe this,but I agree with JJ.

[Banedon]

You have the audacity to ask me not to take your example out of contest,yet you not just took my example out of contest but continue pressing on how Id be using it,even though from the start I said Id never do it?For shame...

Well let's leave your example and concentrate on your post itself. Look very very carefully at what you wrote. The following paragraph is one that I totally disagree with and, I think, plays a big strike against your credibility.

Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.

Explain yourself. You never lose Paladins to neutrals. Therefore your post deals with battles against another hero. Against another hero Blood Furies survive better than Paladins not because they don't stay in enemy territory when they strike but because they are not targetted. This puts your statement in gross error. Explanation?

I never even once said that.I always said that you wont have the creatures to target them.

And yet you cannot contest my assertion that any race can kill all Blood Furies before they act three times. How can that mean I won't have the creatures to target them with? The Blood Furies do not die because they are not targetted.

Yet you say you think in advance.How come while using a superhero strategy against the AI you never thought of ways to counter it?Whenever I play against AI I always think of ways how to counter myself,and ways to counter those counters as well.Later,when I do play against a human I can put those ideas in action and see how good they really are.

I don't know, but I've never thought much against the AI with the superhero strategy. Sure, I've noted the counters, but I've not really cared. I guess that's because I've not been pushed beyond my comfort zone. Only when that happens do I care.

If you've always been thinking about counters and counter-counters, then surely you should have gone further than sending Paladins in to die unsupported.

Ill let you answer this one yourself,and Ill even bold the changes for your convenience:

You know DaemianLucifer? You are completely right! Wait, I'm going to bicker over one word, the 'right'. You are completely wrong.

There are words which, when changed, totally change the context of the sentence. 'Half' here is not insignificant to me. Yours - the difference between 'it can happen' and 'I did it' is different and insignificant. Why would someone even bother posting something that they will not do? I could write something as idiotic as "I can Fireball my own Dungeon armies and kill myself, so Inferno > Dungeon". When you press me I'll argue that I used the word 'can', which is patently different from 'will' and therefore my sentence is perfectly valid. Does that irk you?

Castle growth doesnt change the base number of creatures you get in one week(or one weeks population for short),it only gives you bonus creatures equal to that one weeks population.So you will still kill 3 weeks population with that spell.

You do not kill 3 weeks' population. In three weeks I can produce more Master Hunters than you can kill with one Empowered Meteor Shower. Why you argue with this I can scarcely imagine. No idea what you mean by using examples out of the context. You said you could kill all my Master Hunters with one spell, therefore not having to rush Sylvan and therefore making Master Hunters deal as little damage as Blood Furies and therefore making Master Hunters finesse. If you want to argue this, sure. If you want to argue that 3 weeks' of Master Hunters does not include Castle growth, you'll be out of the context.

Um,that battle was against academy,not warlock.And I asked you wheter youd use MI against a warlock.

Of course I would, if it granted complete immunity to spells (which I do not know; the Editor is not working). If it doesn't I'll have to see exactly what it does to the Warlock.

So what if theire MI?Chain lightning will still stun them,deal them half damage,and deal damage to 3 more of your creatures.Cicrcle of winter will still freeze your cavaliers,deal them half damage and deal damage to a few more of your creatures.And thats only if IM doesnt nullify MI completelly like adicto said.

Excuse me? They are magic immune?

I will stress I do not know how Magic Immunity works against Warlock and am unable to test it directly. If someone knows, please write.

Yes,and unlike your raiders you can split your furries,thus even if you loose 3 of the 4 stacks you had,youll still have survivors.

What makes you think I did not already split my Grim Raiders? You totally underestimate my skill at Heroes. I have. It's like having 10 Blood Furies and splitting them into 4-1-1-1-1-1-1. You might end up with 1 Blood Fury left after the battle. That's what I did with my Grim Raiders.

Considering that the first attack of the furries will be at full damage,and the next one will be in conjuction with the raiders....Id focus on raiders sooner than on furries.Plus youll cerberi will be on the mercy of my hydras on one and my minotaurs finishing blow on the other side.So youd sacrifize your whole stack of cerberi,a third level creature,for 40% of my furries,a second level creature?

It is not so simple. Your Grim Raiders are on my side of the battlefield. My Cerberi are on yours. The physical blockade can stop your Blood Furies from getting to their targets. And while the Cerberi will be at the mercy of your Hydras and Minotaurs, if I trade my Cerberi stack for 40% of your Blood Furies, lesser damage from your Grim Raiders and all the Grim Raiders' heads in a sack, I would.

Incidentally, I've not sacrificed all my Cerberi stack as well. The Gated stack is still there.

Tell me how youll support your blackies in a siege?They are the only flier,and youll have to deal with those ranged units somehow.And they wont be grouped toghether because your enemy will know you have AoE spells.

You've ignored my point. And I'll tell you how to support your Black Dragons in a seige. Don't fight it if there's a strong defending force, as there will be if it forces you to 'deal with those ranged units somehow'. Either get away from that castle if he's pulling the 'wait one week for two more Archangels' move or else seize his mines and build up an unstoppable force.

Find me the quote where I said pit lords are melee units.Cant find it?You bet.

You did not say it, but you implied it. Your exact words were "Actually hydras are slow killers.Fiends fall under this category as well." Pit Lords are out-and-out killer units, not slow killers.

With the difference that your zombies will just stand there while the furries will strike you,and very often,doing considerable damage every time.

'Considerable' is a lot different from 'critical'. Blood Furies do not deal enough damage to warrant killer status.

Another example might help. Suppose I substitute those Zombies with Spectres. Now they will be attacking as well, they won't get targetted and they stay alive. Does that make them killers?

I always did say that furries survive because they are not targeted.You were the one saying that furries arent killers because AI targets them first,thus they die often.So you do agree with me then?Good to know.

Thanks for the plagiarizing. These were your words.

Then its you that missed the point.Furries do pack an impressive punch,and if your furries die,then you need to change your strategy.Furries survive just as master hunters or paladins.Even more than paladins,because they dont stay in enemy teritory when they strike.

Um,why doesnt your opponent move?Griffins are large,so opening a smal gap by moving your imps or demons still doesnt let them pass.I said put succubi in the corner,imps and demons in front,pit fiends next to those,and then the rest.So fiends will remain stationary because paladins will be attacking them(unless you decide to charge my nightmares or cerberi,which I dont see anyone would do),demons will move and strike them,so will cerberi and nightmares.Only the imps will remain useless,and thats not some loss aint it?Or you may decide to charge the devils instead of fiends,but in that case youll have to deal with a massive fireball(or a meteor shower in the case of lords).

If the Imperial Griffins are the only units that are removing the blockade, you deserve to lose. The formation you mentioned may not allow the Imperial Griffins to hit the Succubi Mistresses, but the condensed nature of the formation means the Battle Dive will be very difficult to avoid, too, leading to the second point.

But the succubi will have a shot before the griffins dive.Or you can decide to move them in the case of having one spare tile.Or,like you said,diving fiends may seem as a better thing to do if they are bigger threat than succubi.

If you moved the Paladins before the Imperial Griffins went into the skies, you deserve to lose. If the Succubi Mistresses move instead of attack, you've just soaked up damage by not letting the attack happen in the first place. If you Dive the Pit Lords and hit them, you've again soaked up damage because their numbers would be reduced.

This is another point which I think you are trapped in a corner.

Ah,but you forget one big thing here:Its my job to irk others. Whats your excuse?

Ignore the excuses. Where's your proof? If you do not have any I demand an apology from you that you've set out to deceive every player who read this topic.

Lets see:I lead an army(so to speak)of peasants and archers.Who will kill more of the neutrals?Oh peasants for sure,no question about it

The Peasants may not kill more of the neutrals, but they will be killing anyway, instead of just absorbing the retaliations as they do later in the game. Let's also look carefully at your original sentence.

Personally,I preffer classifying units compared to other same tier ones,and not to all other units.

Neglecting the debatable case of Peasants, does this make Sprites, Master Gremlins, Familiars, Skeleton Archers and Assassins ALL killers?

Oversimplification or not,its much more plausable to kill devils and fiend with your whole army than to kill furries with just your succubi,considering that the armies are evenly matched.

If you say my oversimplification is more simple than your oversimplification, you've just praised my ability at English actually. I was just going to show you in stark terms how oversimplification does not help you at all. If you get out there and say 'I beat Inferno with Dungeon because my whole army can kill the Devils and Pit Lords' you are going to get ridiculed.

And I again have to show you that different words have different meanings."Dont" is not the same as "didnt".I did play it,and I got tired of all the bugs it had,thus I gave up.I wonder where I found the will to play it for so long anyway.

Don't mention the entire example if you don't / didn't play them. Retract all your posts on The Cultists and issue an apology. You know what you remind me of? Look at this thread: http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17992 You are just like him, spouting advice when you haven't really tried it. At least have the grace to acknowledge it at the start as well as to give in to a player who has tried. You never did either.

And 400 master hunters are more dangerous that 100 druids.How so when druids are a level higher,have higher attack,defense,damage,hit points and 16 master hunters are weaker than 4 druids?

There's a difference of only one week between 15 Archmagi and 20 Blood Furies. How many weeks' difference are there between 100 Druids and 400 master Hunters? Which is more likely to arise in a real battle, 100 Druids vs. 400 Master Hunters or 15 Archmagi against 20 Blood Furies?

Depends really on the creatures.If you really have enough fiends for them to be higher priority for griffins than the succubi(which is usually the case),boxing your succubi is actually better than leaving space for them to manueveur,because,like you said earlier,griffins may pin your army so that moving certain key creatures can be quite dangerous.

I see you're once more escaping from the real point in this diversion: all the more reason the Paladins are not unsupported.

Ahem,you quoted me,yet you still are asking that question?Read what you quoted then.

This is another thing we can open a poll for. "Do you consider Master Hunters as killer units"? I'm betting this would be even more skewed than the 3 Black Dragons vs. 40 Blood Furies poll (I'm quite surprised at the current score; I'd expected a total, crushing victory for the Black Dragons).

To the gated units.

And the creatures that are Gating won't be advancing.

Yes well I did say thats not very likelly to happen(if at all),so I see no reason why youd want to dispute something I dont even believe as possible.

Are you telling me Warding Arrow NEVER triggers? Don't forget, Sylvan is a lucky race.

I dont know how necromancy will be changed,but right now you can get enough skeletons to pary these.Depends on the map really.

Yet another thing we can open a poll on. "Can Necropolis get enough Skeleton Archers in a normal game such that the Skeleton Archers beat Master Hunters and Druid Elders combined in a purely ranged duel?"

Not weak killers,slow killers.And how do they fit fodder anyway?Fodder does nothing but steal retaliation and die.Hydras dont do that,but they support your back line by focusing on youre enemies chargers.

They're absorbing hits and dying. You yourself supported this strategy against neutral ranged creatures. My Raelag used Empowered Armageddon after deploying only Deep Hydras as well.

And SmokingBarrel asks, how exactly do you explain your 50 Blood Furies first killing half the Paladins, then 4-6, then 3, then 90 Blood Furies killing only 1-2?

@JollyJoker - I prefer to think of Blood Furies as finesse units throughout the game. 'Finesse' doesn't mean they cannot kill, but it means that they will take more manipulation.

[Mytical]

Ok pardon my confusion but I thought this started out if Furies were killers or not. Seems to have branched many times since then. Furies, until perhaps deep hydras or dragons are the core of your army. Since hydras are rather slow, they still are your best offensive unit until you get TA (then hydras move way up). They have good numbers, are fast, and become more useful when you get certain skills, but are never not useful. Now minos are stronger, but slower, and do not have no retal so they don't really become dangerous for several weeks after the building is bought (even guards). Raiders are decent but without support they fall fast. Grim Raiders actually become more useful WITH furies then without. Now factor in that they get 2 attacks to most creatures 1 (with a few exception) this effectively doubles their danger, and that is WHEN they can be hit (which is not always the case). If you single them out and target them, then that frees up another possibly higher damaging stack to cause havoc. If you don't then they themselves can cause a lot of havoc. It is a loose loose situation. Not that there are not ways arround that, but it still makes them dangerous.

So lets look at the statement. "Blood Furies are killers". Early in the game this is very very true. Even mid game this is true. If you don't counter them fast, they do a lot of damage. Late mid game, end game, this is not so true. Sure they have higher numbers now, but in the grand scheme of things they are less useful over all. Still useful, but imo can not be classified as killers anymore. There are too many ways (end game) to take them out without really targeting them. So they become support, finesse. Finesse IS an important part of their strategy from day one, but that does not make them not killers. So in that vein they are both, and more.

[winterfate]

Mytical said:

So lets look at the statement. "Blood Furies are killers". Early in the game this is very very true. Even mid game this is true. If you don't counter them fast, they do a lot of damage. Late mid game, end game, this is not so true. Sure they have higher numbers now, but in the grand scheme of things they are less useful over all. Still useful, but imo can not be classified as killers anymore. There are too many ways (end game) to take them out without really targeting them. So they become support, finesse. Finesse IS an important part of their strategy from day one, but that does not make them not killers. So in that vein they are both, and more.

Hence, they are finesse-killers . IMO, they are enough units to make that category. Basically, too weak to be a true killer, but too strong to be truly finesse. Blood Furies would be perfect...if only they had a higher growth rate.


Side note: That reminds me...how does that Dungeon Ritual Pit work?

[Mytical]

You sacrifice creatures and the number of furies and minotaurs produced per week increases. This is a perminate increase, just so you know (so getting an early start on the sacrifices is recommended). Now personally I sacrifice flagged dwelling units, or a few of my minos (very few) to up production. Any non dungeon unit you can 'recruit' should be sent to your town to be offered up to the growth of your furies and minotaurs. Just don't do it in a crazy way. After awhile it becomes meaningless to sacrifice, using cheats one time I got it to such a level that 100 black dragons added exactly 1 fury per week. That is just not worth it. (think it was up to 22 furies per week and a hand full of minos). Worth it early, not worth much late.

[Banedon]

I believe the Blood Furies cannot be classified as killers. Yes they are in charge of killing early but no they are not killer units. They require careful maneveuring and control as well as careful preservation. All these mark it out as a finesse unit, not a killer.

A finesse unit can be in charge of killing. Sprites are an example. Early-game Sylvan has no choice but to rely almost exclusively on Sprites, but given the equally fragile nature of Sprites they can't be killers. Imperial Griffins can wreck quite some havoc mid-game, but they also require preservation and so they're not killers.

If we look at it carefully we might note: what difference is there between finesse and cannon fodder? If a unit is worthless at killing it would automatically be labelled cannon fodder (Horned Overseers, Plague Zombies). Finesse units therefore can do killing, just they're generally not the only units doing killing (Dungeon is the exception).

[Mytical]

By that same standard then almost all of the units (maybe upgraded tier 5 and up as exceptions) would be finesse not killer. Low tier creatures (below level 5) are generally (with very few exceptions) lower hp creatures. Thus every one of them require 'finesse' to preserve. Even Master Hunters need to be preserved or they become a non-issue (without any creatures left, how can they then do damage?). Same with druids. You don't have any druids, how can druids be killers? True, these are a bit more sturdy then the furies, but if you don't keep them from dying then they become less effective. Master Hunters do not have a ton of hp, they get targetted they can die quite easily, and they are often targetted so they are finesse right (not killers). I myself would classify them killers, because they do a boat load of damage. So tell me the difference if you would please. You must protect both, correct? They both are not the sturdiest creatures out there, and are often the targets for the enemy (I am going to block or reduce your hunters before I even worry about your dancers, sprites, ect). And please don't compair them to any tier 6 or above. Everybody knows that a horde of any tier 2 or 3 creatures can be destroyed by only a few of even tier 5, let alone 6. So is it your contention that only tier 5 and above can be considered killer? Personally I am more in your veiw then I am DL's. I think to be considered a killer; however, you have to look at individual tiers and not really compair them to other tiers (especially higher ones). (Yes I know I compaired them to MH, but they should not really be compaired to such..even though their is similarities like the low hp and being targeted). Now I will be the first to admit I would much rather have a decent number of hunters then a horde of furies in an end battle (ranged/casters ftw!!!). So as I said, furies are situational killers that rely on finesse. Yes I do think they are finesse ALSO, I just don't see it being mutually exclusive with not being killers.

I will give an example of finesse/killers. Paladins (who you yourself said are killers and I agree). I will finesse my paladins also, however. I will skirt close by enemy creatures to take out more promising targets (and get that bonus ). The deffiniton of finesse. So we can agree to disagree on terminology, your view is as valid as mine. After all they are just opinons.

[DaemianLucifer]

Explain yourself. You never lose Paladins to neutrals. Therefore your post deals with battles against another hero. Against another hero Blood Furies survive better than Paladins not because they don't stay in enemy territory when they strike but because they are not targetted. This puts your statement in gross error. Explanation?

Example:You strike inferno with you paladins,and griffons are around.Paladins get some retaliation,and a strike from the hero.Now they arent dead,lets say 5 or so survived.Its time for the lords to act,and demons are next.Are they lords going to strike the weakened paladins,or cast meteor shower on those deadly marksmen?After that,demons(which would do nothing usefull in other situation)attack the paladins,and reduce them to 2.Devils act.Will they finish off the almost harmless paladins,or are they going to charge the griffins,or someone else in the back(probably angels)?The mere fact that even the slowest units can target the paladins does reduce their lifespan a lot.

Now if this was the case with the furries,the demons wouldnt have the opportunity to strike them.If they possed less threat then the others(say meteor shower at matriarchs and hydras),and devils aimed at dragons,furries would still deal the same damage,enough damage to again kill a single devil or two lords.

Call the furries whatever you want,but you must spend your killers to dispose of them,you cannot do it with just your fodder like in the case of paladins.As for hunters,there will be very few situation where they wont be the priority target.

And yet you cannot contest my assertion that any race can kill all Blood Furies before they act three times. How can that mean I won't have the creatures to target them with? The Blood Furies do not die because they are not targetted.

Yes,anyone can kill them,but they wont have the creatures to do so.All the other creatures will be tied up doing something else(reppeling raiders,dragons and such),thus you wont have troops to spare to attack the furries.

If you've always been thinking about counters and counter-counters, then surely you should have gone further than sending Paladins in to die unsupported.

Ill ask you again:Supported by what?I support them with range troops and my hero,sure,but whos there beside them?The best support for paladins,imo,are your archangels.

There are words which, when changed, totally change the context of the sentence. 'Half' here is not insignificant to me. Yours - the difference between 'it can happen' and 'I did it' is different and insignificant. Why would someone even bother posting something that they will not do? I could write something as idiotic as "I can Fireball my own Dungeon armies and kill myself, so Inferno > Dungeon". When you press me I'll argue that I used the word 'can', which is patently different from 'will' and therefore my sentence is perfectly valid. Does that irk you?

Then why did you say "I can kill your furries before they act three times,even if I loose my whole army",even if you would never do that?The only thing that irks me is that you are using double standards.You can use such examples but I cant?

You do not kill 3 weeks' population. In three weeks I can produce more Master Hunters than you can kill with one Empowered Meteor Shower. Why you argue with this I can scarcely imagine. No idea what you mean by using examples out of the context. You said you could kill all my Master Hunters with one spell, therefore not having to rush Sylvan and therefore making Master Hunters deal as little damage as Blood Furies and therefore making Master Hunters finesse. If you want to argue this, sure. If you want to argue that 3 weeks' of Master Hunters does not include Castle growth, you'll be out of the context.

Reread me again.I already explained to you that 3 weeks for me is 3 weeks without castles.I couldve also said three standard growths,couldnt I?But that sounds a bit crappy to me,so I used three weeks onsted.At week 5 youll have cca 15 or so weeks,wouldnt you?But you are taking it ot of conext.I never did say that master hunters arent killers,just that a weak warlock that has no artifacts and just 10 spell power can kill 3 weeks of master hunters with a single spell.Even further,if he uses lightning,hell incapacitate them untill hes next turn(because he has sorcery).Even further,if he has chain lightning,even more of your troops will suffer.True,hunters are killers,but warlock can incapacitate them with ease.That doesnt mean other races can though.

Of course I would, if it granted complete immunity to spells (which I do not know; the Editor is not working). If it doesn't I'll have to see exactly what it does to the Warlock.

Excuse me? They are magic immune?

I will stress I do not know how Magic Immunity works against Warlock and am unable to test it directly. If someone knows, please write.

Magical immunity either wont work at all(like adicto said),or it will only half the damage(which sound the most logical because thats how blacks natural immunity works).Did you ever have griffins ressistance trigger when you attack them with a warlock?Even though they receive small damage,they still get stunned.

What makes you think I did not already split my Grim Raiders? You totally underestimate my skill at Heroes. I have. It's like having 10 Blood Furies and splitting them into 4-1-1-1-1-1-1. You might end up with 1 Blood Fury left after the battle. That's what I did with my Grim Raiders.

You had only raiders?Again,you never told me what your army was.But my guess is that you had far more furries.But Ill drop this anyway.

It is not so simple. Your Grim Raiders are on my side of the battlefield. My Cerberi are on yours. The physical blockade can stop your Blood Furies from getting to their targets. And while the Cerberi will be at the mercy of your Hydras and Minotaurs, if I trade my Cerberi stack for 40% of your Blood Furies, lesser damage from your Grim Raiders and all the Grim Raiders' heads in a sack, I would.

Um,cerberi dont block the furries at all.They are a small creature.Bypassing them is no problem(and they still wonder why I hate these large squares)

Incidentally, I've not sacrificed all my Cerberi stack as well. The Gated stack is still there.

And gating can cost you another attack at full force of my furries,depending on the initial placement on the ATB bar.

You've ignored my point. And I'll tell you how to support your Black Dragons in a seige. Don't fight it if there's a strong defending force, as there will be if it forces you to 'deal with those ranged units somehow'. Either get away from that castle if he's pulling the 'wait one week for two more Archangels' move or else seize his mines and build up an unstoppable force.

And you are ignoring my point here.And I already answered your question about the paladins.Multiple times.

You did not say it, but you implied it. Your exact words were "Actually hydras are slow killers.Fiends fall under this category as well." Pit Lords are out-and-out killer units, not slow killers.

Slow killers=/=melee units.

'Considerable' is a lot different from 'critical'. Blood Furies do not deal enough damage to warrant killer status.

Yes,killing a level 7 unit every action is not critical at all

Another example might help. Suppose I substitute those Zombies with Spectres. Now they will be attacking as well, they won't get targetted and they stay alive. Does that make them killers?

And can specters kill a level 7 unit whenever they attack?And how many of them do you need to acomplish this?

I always did say that furries survive because they are not targeted.You were the one saying that furries arent killers because AI targets them first,thus they die often.So you do agree with me then?Good to know.

Thanks for the plagiarizing. These were your words.

Already explained above.

If the Imperial Griffins are the only units that are removing the blockade, you deserve to lose. The formation you mentioned may not allow the Imperial Griffins to hit the Succubi Mistresses, but the condensed nature of the formation means the Battle Dive will be very difficult to avoid, too, leading to the second point.

Yes but that battle dive will most probably be aimed at fiends,which wouldnt be able to avoid it anyway.

If you moved the Paladins before the Imperial Griffins went into the skies, you deserve to lose. If the Succubi Mistresses move instead of attack, you've just soaked up damage by not letting the attack happen in the first place. If you Dive the Pit Lords and hit them, you've again soaked up damage because their numbers would be reduced.

No,you move your paladins when the griffins are in the sky.If you wait for them to land,youll have lots of gate fodder to deal with as well.And moving succubi will probably be the thing that never happens.About the fiends,well they wouldnt be able to avoid the attack anyway(unless TAed).They are meant to survive a lot of punishment anyway,and still be quite dangerous.Even one lord is something you have to fear.

Ignore the excuses. Where's your proof? If you do not have any I demand an apology from you that you've set out to deceive every player who read this topic.

Apology for what?Proof of what?

The Peasants may not kill more of the neutrals, but they will be killing anyway, instead of just absorbing the retaliations as they do later in the game. Let's also look carefully at your original sentence.

Personally,I preffer classifying units compared to other same tier ones,and not to all other units.

Neglecting the debatable case of Peasants, does this make Sprites, Master Gremlins, Familiars, Skeleton Archers and Assassins ALL killers?

Sprites yes,assassins are finese,as are familiars.Gremlins are supporters.Peasants are pure fodder.And skelies are killers only because of the number,but you may classify them as fodder if you want.

Don't mention the entire example if you don't / didn't play them. Retract all your posts on The Cultists and issue an apology. You know what you remind me of? Look at this thread: http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17992 You are just like him, spouting advice when you haven't really tried it. At least have the grace to acknowledge it at the start as well as to give in to a player who has tried. You never did either.

I did try it long before you,and I beat it long before you.When you play academy,then you may preach me all you want,but not before that.Stop being so all mighty and above others,and come back to the ground you sinfull mortal

Btw,your link doesnt work.

There's a difference of only one week between 15 Archmagi and 20 Blood Furies. How many weeks' difference are there between 100 Druids and 400 master Hunters? Which is more likely to arise in a real battle, 100 Druids vs. 400 Master Hunters or 15 Archmagi against 20 Blood Furies?

Hmmm...The growth of druids:4,the growth of hunters:7,difference in weeks between 400 hunters and druids:0.Besides,you are (again) missing the point.Something you are so fond acusing others of.

I see you're once more escaping from the real point in this diversion: all the more reason the Paladins are not unsupported.

And what is your point actually?That griffins support paladins in melee because they are killing fiends that already retaliated to the paladins?Archers and inquisitors are supporting the paladins,and so are angels,your hero and ballista.They all are supporting paladins,that is correct,but none of them is a melee supporter.None of them takes the damage that is aimed towards the paladins.They receive the full force of your enemies army.Thats why they are usuported in melee.

This is another thing we can open a poll for. "Do you consider Master Hunters as killer units"? I'm betting this would be even more skewed than the 3 Black Dragons vs. 40 Blood Furies poll (I'm quite surprised at the current score; I'd expected a total, crushing victory for the Black Dragons).

Did you even read the quote I told you to read?Where did I say they are anything but killers?Yet you complain about me putting words in your mouth,when for over three days you are telling me how I am saying master hunters arent killers,even though I wrote "Master hunters are killers,no question about it"

And the creatures that are Gating won't be advancing.

Yes they will,but behind the gated units.You use gated units to take the full hit,then you go in with your real units to slaughter.

Are you telling me Warding Arrow NEVER triggers? Don't forget, Sylvan is a lucky race.

What the hell are you babling about?I said haven using only archers against sylvan and never charging is a situation I dont see happening ever.Honestly,your attention is quite weak,and so are your comprehension skills.No wonder we are tugging this for days when you dont see anything around the single sentence you are quoting.

They're absorbing hits and dying. You yourself supported this strategy against neutral ranged creatures. My Raelag used Empowered Armageddon after deploying only Deep Hydras as well.

Funny,yet Im sure you are going to dispute the fact that sprites can be called killers because in the begining they are uncontested against neutrals.You were the one saying that situational use of a creature doesnt change its classification,not me.

And SmokingBarrel asks, how exactly do you explain your 50 Blood Furies first killing half the Paladins, then 4-6, then 3, then 90 Blood Furies killing only 1-2?

Simple,I didnt do the math in the begining.

@JollyJoker - I prefer to think of Blood Furies as finesse units throughout the game. 'Finesse' doesn't mean they cannot kill, but it means that they will take more manipulation.

Yet you consider hydras fodder just because they can be used like that aginst neutrals,yet furries that can be used like killers against neutrals are finesse because of their actions in a hero battle.Funny.