MM History question

[Corlagon]

"We all, including the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins" is pretty much "the elves, the dwarfs, and the goblins and even more".

No, it is not.

There were dragons on VARN 4, a seedship of the same type with that which seeded Enroth (VARN MCMIV).

"They came from the Void with their own agenda..."

Following this logic, the elves, the dwarves and the goblins are humans o_O

No no no. Perhaps to make it very clear, I ought to have said:

He was a human talking to other humans. Therefore he was referring to humans, and ALSO the other races he then mentioned.

I presented the thing I consider a solid proof for this (M&M6 quote about the Crossing)

Ah, but it is NOT a solid proof of your belief. Otherwise I would not be arguing about it.

[XEL II]

"They came from the Void with their own agenda..."

"The fact that Ubisoft placed the Seal of Approval on it doesn't make LotA canon..." Just kidding, I assume LotA canon. Well, the dragons could came on the seedships, not on the Enroth.

He was a human talking to other humans. Therefore he was referring to humans, and ALSO the other races he then mentioned.

"We all came with the great ship and that includes even the elves, the dwarves and the goblins".

No, it is not.

"It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so. Therefore, it is so."

Ah, but it is NOT a solid proof of your belief. Otherwise I would not be arguing about it.

Well, it's not in your opinion Anyway, you got my point. We have yet to see the thing you consider a solid proof about the Underworld being a separate plane.

[XEL II]

Can you post it? I don't remember this event.

I don't have the English version of SoD at the moment. Check the map of "Unholy Alliance", where you play as both Gelu and Gem.

[Corlagon]

"It is so. I know it is so. I have said it is so. Therefore, it is so."

Actually, I said that it is not so, big difference

Anyway, you got my point. We have yet to see the thing you consider a solid proof about the Underworld being a separate plane.

Well tbh I am planning to explain that in some more fan-lore I'm working on - and yes, it's only fan lore, but meh.

Anyway, the theory's just an (IMO far more likely) alternative for yours. There's no proof for it, per se, just as there's no proof for the other.

About Gem and Ethric's correspondence, Xel II is correct:

"I received a message from Ethric today. Ethric said it had been decades since Sandro was his apprentice. He said Sandro ran away and became a Necromancer! There were more ill tidings. Ethric said Sandro might be trying to construct a powerful artifact from all the artifacts I gathered for him. I was so furious, I screamed. None of my troops came near me for an hour. I must pass these tidings on to Gelu and the Council of Elders."

[XEL II]

Well tbh I am planning to explain that in some more fan-lore I'm working on - and yes, it's only fan lore, but meh.

Anyway, the theory's just an (IMO far more likely) alternative for yours. There's no proof for it, per se, just as there's no proof for the other.

If you are still taking the storywriting, I suggest to you to make the Underworld some kind of underground area in the Plane of Death. This is kinda fitting if you are going to make the Underworld a separate plane.

[Corlagon]

Believe it or not, that's exactly the plan ^^

If it is ever released, I'll also be able to explain Xeron's origins and some other loose ends.

[Marzhin]

"They came from the Void with their own agenda..."

By the way, this quote was only meant to be a small wink to Ashan and its Dragon Gods. A way to show it could easily be linked to the old MM universe without much effort

"The fact that Ubisoft placed the Seal of Approval on it doesn't make LotA canon..."

I'll always agree LotA is not canon - but I'm honored to see it become fanon

[XEL II]

I'll always agree LotA is not canon

Yet LotA fans (like me) disagree with it

[Avonu]

I think we need some break

So, what really is Grail in HoMM series? Is there any description of this "symbolic cornerstone" which was lost over centuries (as described in Seeds of Disconent)?

[XEL II]

So, what really is Grail in HoMM series? Is there any description of this "symbolic cornerstone" which was lost over centuries (as described in Seeds of Disconent)?

Just some holy symbol, which Welnin tried to use to become independent, but failed. BTW, Welnin rebellion in Seeds of Discontent was Archibald's setup in order to instigate a war between Erathia and AvLee (see his diary). He and Kastore later tried to do it in Harmondale, but this time the Contested Lands indeed became independent.

[Avonu]

And what about Grail in HIV? Are there some explanations of this artifact?

But all plots must begin somewhere or remain formless. Perhaps my seed of discontent will root in those fertile “disputed lands?”

Personally I think about this conflict between Erathia and AvLee in MM7.
But we have Welnin temple in Harmondale so who know?

[XEL II]

Personally I think about this conflict between Erathia and AvLee in MM7.
But we have Welnin temple in Harmondale so who know?

To me "seeds of discontent growning in disputed lands" is pretty much about Seeds of Discontent campaign, where Weknin tried to become independt and AvLee and Erathia once again draw their attention to the Contested Lands. Anyway, Welnin's attempt failed and the Contested Lands became independent later, with the formation of the Kingdom of Harmondale.

And what about Grail in HIV? Are there some explanations of this artifact?

No explanations. Grail seems to be game mechanics artifact apart from Seeds of Discontent.

My question. Who was the ruler of Nighon mentioned somewhere in M&M8 (I don't remember)? He could be the same King mentioned by Tor Anwyn (or maybe that King wasn't the ruler of all Nighon).

[Avonu]

From Flamestryke page:

[XEL II]

Thanks I think that the King of Nighon mentioned in M&M7 was Mederon.
Inferno. Most of its creatures aren't the Kreegan. Hell hounds and cerberi are tamed and genetically altered. Efreeti (the ones who lived outside the Tomd of VARN and visited the Plane of Fire) and gogs are subjugated. Imps and horned demons are engineered offshot from the Kreegan. Familiars and maybe imps are enslaved. The pure-blood Kreegans in Inferno are Devils (they even burn when dying just like in M&M6) and probably Pit Lords.

[Avonu]

I think he wasn't. ;P
Well, there are no proofs anyway.

Now Inferno

Inferno towns can be found in Erathian regions blighted by the emergence of the underworld on the surface. Demoniac and Heretic heroes stand in uneasy alliance with these towns. Inferno armies have great hand-to-hand attack units and are only slightly hampered at the lower levels by a lack of flying units until the awesome, teleporting devil and arch devil units can be brought into play.

My friends, in all my studies of Erathia, there is but one thing that fills me with dread more than the silent, cold death of the Necropolis, and that is the twisted, black-hearted evil of the Infernos. Foul creatures, ripped from the depths of the Hells and beyond, are bound into the service of the Demoniaks and Heretics who call them forth. They serve unquestioningly, and without fear, but are always looking for the one chance to break free from their master. Fortunately, I have never actually seen one of these creatures loose.

None of the creatures of the Inferno cities are native to this land. Because of this, there are few actual dwellings to be found. Instead, a great number of altars, halls, towers and pyres need to be erected in order to summon the Inferno's armies.

The lowliest creature to be found here is the Imp. Honestly, they are like rats, and no matter how many times you think you have killed them all, more seem to appear. Through research I was able to determine that once an Imp becomes a Familiar, it can create a dimensional rift within the city, allowing an even greater influx of these vermin.

After the Imps come the summoning halls of the Gogs and the furnaces of the Hell Hounds. Both appear in great numbers, though fortunately nothing near the influx of the Imps and Familiars. The Hell Hounds, when properly summoned, can not only take the form of a stronger Cerberus, but in the best cases can also be summoned in greater numbers.

As many of you have asked, there are in fact Demons to be found in Erathia. They, along with the weaker Hell Hounds and the stronger Pit Fiends, seem to make up the bulk of many armies of the Infernos. Strong alone, and deadly in great numbers, these creatures make even the holiest and hardiest of souls tremble.

Yet there are two creatures that outclass those that I have already mentioned. The first, summoned from great towers, are the Efreet. These monsters bear a striking similarity to the Genies, riding about on great waves of fire that always surround them. However, even the Efreet Sultans quiver with fear in the presence of the purest of all evil creatures, the Devils. Though they pledge their service willingly (for the right price, of course), it always seems like they come to this land for their own reasons.

Fear these creatures, friends, for they represent all that opposes Good. So ends today's lesson.

We have gogs in MM8 on Fire Plane (like efreeti and phoenixes) so I assume they are from this plane.
Personally I think that demons, pit lords and cerberi are from Underworld from HC:CotU.
We have imps in MM9, where they came from (camp)fire so they also can be creatures of Fire Plane.

[XEL II]

This text from Xanthor's Tales doesn't contradict my post.
"The emergence of Underworld" is the volcanic eruptions and opening of the undergorund rifts. Inferno have nothing to do with the Underworld, since it wasn't invented in the time of RoE and M&M7. And BTW, Nighonian Troglodytes and Medusas are reffered to as "creatures of the underworld" in Xanthor's Tales.

Maybe Ressurectra's race wasn't retconned from Gnome to Elf in M&M7. After all, we don't know if the Gnomes have the small size like Dwarves or not.

[Corlagon]

I think that the King of Nighon mentioned in M&M7 was Mederon.

I doubt it. The MM8 description doesn't seem recent enough. In addition, though a little trivial, Mederon was the Emperor, not the King.

I mostly agree with Xel about the Kreegans. Hellhounds, Gogs and Imps aren't part of their race (seemingly), but the Horned Demons most likely are. I really doubt that they are the real Demons from the Underworld, since they would have come from the Cerberus Gate, but there's never any mention of them again after HC: CotU. Looks like they were either exterminated or the Gate was sealed.

As for this "emergence on the Underworld", it's demonstrated in "Dungeons and Devils". The Kreegans summon a volcano, making it into an Inferno town. That's just about the extent of that, if you ask me.

Also, if we all assume that Pit Fiends are Kreegans, this is sort of proof that Rise of the Necromancer took place after 1162 - Sandro tortures a Pit Fiend in the first scenario, who couldn't have been there before the invasion.

By the way, the Efreeti didn't "visit" the Plane of Fire, they came from the Plane of Fire in the first place Besides, they were never subjugated, they simply entered a willing alliance with the Devils (read Xyron's H4 bio). Since Xyron is alive and present in HC: The Fiery Moon, I think this alliance may have originally been brought about by Vorr.

I doubt that the Imps are from the Plane of Fire, but they don't seem to be Kreegans either. They're present on Axeoth and Geary Gravel's world, neither of which were targeted by Escaton.

About Gnomes - take a closer look in the MM3 manual.

[XEL II]

By the way, the Efreeti didn't "visit" the Plane of Fire, they came from the Plane of Fire in the first place Besides, they were never subjugated, they simply entered a willing alliance with the Devils (read Xyron's H4 bio). Since Xyron is alive and present in HC: The Fiery Moon, I think this alliance may have originally been brought about by Vorr.

Efreeti and genies are among the guardians of the Tomb of VARN. And they were created by "the great power from the mystical forces". Sounds like the Ancients, especially considering they were VARN guardians. But some efreeti and genies live on the Planes of Fire and Air respectively. These genies were allied with Bracada and these efreeti later allied with Eeofol. In Xyron's HoMMIV bio it is stated that his people feel freer as never before after breaking away from the Kreegan.

I doubt it. The MM8 description doesn't seem recent enough. In addition, though a little trivial, Mederon was the Emperor, not the King.

M&M8 description doesn't give any dates. Mederon could have both titles or known to some as the King.

Also, if we all assume that Pit Fiends are Kreegans, this is sort of proof that Rise of the Necromancer took place after 1162 - Sandro tortures a Pit Fiend in the first scenario, who couldn't have been there before the invasion.

This demon and his brother (bandits' leader) could be the Underworld demons.

but the Horned Demons most likely are.

They maybe a genetically engineered offshot, like (seemingly) Pit Lords.

About Gnomes - take a closer look in the MM3 manual.

M&M3 manual only states they were not strong in body.

[Corlagon]

"the great power from the mystical forces"

To me, this sounds more like elemental air / fire magic than anything else. Also, play MotE - there's Genies all over the Plane of Air. And also:

"Genies and master genies are Tower allies recruited from the realm of air magic."

...and which realm might that be, do you think?

In Xyron's HoMMIV bio it is stated that his people feel freer as never before after breaking away from the Kreegan.

Um, yes, perhaps that's because they are no longer obliged to take care of their allies...? Subjugation isn't indicated.

M&M8 description doesn't give any dates. Mederon could have both titles or known to some as the King.

Well, I know you've got some odd problem with it, but MM Tribute has Mederon in Karigor following his reign in Nighon, so...

This demon and his brother (bandits' leader) could be the Underworld demons.

That would certainly have been mentioned somewhere if it were the case. As you have correctly said, "Inferno have nothing to do with the Underworld, since it wasn't invented in the time of RoE and M&M7"

They maybe a genetically engineered offshot, like (seemingly) Pit Lords.

Or the graphical differences could simply be just that - purely graphical differences, and they are intended to be one and the same as the MM6/7 Kreegans. There are Purple Dragons in Heroes I who are never seen again in Enroth, and nobody complains. And another example - Kastore's complexion is teal exclusively in MM3.

M&M3 manual only states they were not strong in body.

There's images in there, all of which are accurate about the general appearance of each race. Take a look at the image for the Gnome, doesn't look too tall to me

[XEL II]

Also, play MotE - there's Genies all over the Plane of Air. And also:

"Genies and master genies are Tower allies recruited from the realm of air magic."

...and which realm might that be, do you think?

And where did I disagree with this?
The fact that they are guarding the Tomb of VARN and that they were created by the "great power" (Ancients are the great power without a doubt) sounds pretty much like they were created by the Ancients. Besided, Solmyr states in Heroes IV that genies were servants of the "gods" (Ancients can be considered gods in post-Silence).

Well, I know you've got some odd problem with it, but MM Tribute has Mederon in Karigor following his reign in Nighon, so...

Well, MMT also have Ethric the Mad becoming a lich in 1083, Karigor being north to Jadame, so it's not a reliable source to me.
And I am not the only one who have got an "odd" problem with MMT Also, in this case, I can say that you are oddly considering M&M6 less canonical than MMT.

Or the graphical differences could simply be just that - purely graphical differences, and they are intended to be one and the same as the MM6/7 Kreegans. There are Purple Dragons in Heroes I who are never seen again in Enroth, and nobody complains. And another example - Kastore's complexion is teal exclusively in MM3.

Both cases are possible.

That would certainly have been mentioned somewhere if it were the case. As you have correctly said, "Inferno have nothing to do with the Underworld, since it wasn't invented in the time of RoE and M&M7"

Ceratinly it have not but it was used as game mechanics representative of the Underworld demons in CotU And it could be Inferno only through game mechanics in "Rise of the Necromancer". For example, in the map where Sandro repels AvLeean-Erathian-Krewlish attack on Deyja, one of the enemies castles is Inferno And the name "pit fiend" is just a name given to the creature by the planet's inhabitants. And we know that the Underworld Demons share some similiar features with the red kind of Kreegan.

There's images in there, all of which are accurate about the general appearance of each race. Take a look at the image for the Gnome, doesn't look too tall to me

Gnome's height in comparison to other races is not shown there.