AI in Heroes of Might and Magic 5 - Nival principles

[Jolly Joker]

That last post finally and obviously makes it perfectly clear what I find so horrendously silly about all this. The whole time some people complain about the dumb AI and the massive amount of 10000 gold per day it gets on normal and additional creatures and who knows what, in short about massive cheating. Now some official says no, that is not so. And now it looks better? Are you freaking kidding? What some Nival guy says, doesn't have any influence on how the game plays, and the game plays basically the same, AI-wise, since 1.2.
That means, the whole complaing is a theoretical thing; it doesn't really matter how the game plays against the AI, right? The only thing that matters is the principle: Thou shalt not cheat!
Now it turns out it doesn't, and "it looks better". It's still the same old AI. It plays the same way, how can it look better?
This discussion sure is finished for me.

[MistWeaver]

Jolly, what a hell are you talking about ?

First of all I didnt wrote something like "cool, now it plays better" Im sure It still plays like sh*t. But the good things I heard from nival is that at least it stoped cheating as before.
Thats right as before

So there were 10k on normal. And yes I would enjoy this game a bit more knowing that AI is not cheating like hell.
Do I look like a freak because of that ?

Now it turns out it doesn't, and "it looks better". It's still the same old AI. It plays the same way, how can it look better?

You did not understand me here: by "Now" I have meant 1.3 - because I didnt play much since june.
And by "it looks better to me" - Ive meant "whole picture" of AI design. The design was changed in 1.2 I did not know that.

I just dont understand why you have gone so mad ?

[Alamar]

At last I received answer from OldBoy at nival forum. He said following:

- AI does not receive creatures from nowhere (excluding scripts of course)
- AI has population quantity same as human
- neutrals join AI by same rules as they join human
- From patch 1.2. AI does not receive cheat money. Instead he has cheaper buildings & creatures. From equal on easy till 30% on heroic

So.. if everything is pure truth, situatuion looks bit better to me. Now AI depends on economy.. at least a little.

<EDITED ... I misread the original post>

I'm not convinced that the AI doesn't get a higher join percentage than humans. A few days ago I saw the AI walk around my castle and they picked up 2 joins out of the only 2 creatures that they walked up to. A 100% join rate seems a little high ....

As for the AI funding if their buildings and creatures only cost 30% of what I have to pay on heroic then that explains how they end up with so much extra $.

I'm not sure which system I prefer [the AI gets bonuses in some manner OR the AI has cheaper buildings/creatures]. Either way the size of the bonus seems to be a little too extreme.

[DaemianLucifer]

That last post finally and obviously makes it perfectly clear what I find so horrendously silly about all this. The whole time some people complain about the dumb AI and the massive amount of 10000 gold per day it gets on normal and additional creatures and who knows what, in short about massive cheating. Now some official says no, that is not so. And now it looks better? Are you freaking kidding? What some Nival guy says, doesn't have any influence on how the game plays, and the game plays basically the same, AI-wise, since 1.2.
That means, the whole complaing is a theoretical thing; it doesn't really matter how the game plays against the AI, right? The only thing that matters is the principle: Thou shalt not cheat!
Now it turns out it doesn't, and "it looks better". It's still the same old AI. It plays the same way, how can it look better?
This discussion sure is finished for me.

Um.let me bold something for you:

So.. if everything is pure truth, situatuion looks bit better to me. Now AI depends on economy.. at least a little.

Situation looks better.Not AI plays better,but the situaton looks better.There are the problems with AI:
1)its dumb
2)it cheats its fourfivefive off.
So,if one of those is resolved it is an improvement.Its not the best that can be done,but it is a bit better.

[ThunderTitan]

As for the AI funding if their buildings and creatures only cost 30% of what I have to pay on heroic then that explains how they end up with so much extra $.

At least it doesn't do it on normal anymore.

[PhoenixReborn]

JJ do you know if they will fix the way they calculate retreating in 1.4? I can't get a decent battle unless I capture someone in a castle.

I've been playing Heroes 3 for about a week and the adventure map a.i. is better in 3. In Heroes 5 it isn't agressive enough, coming behind me and assaulting castles...if I put a single unit in a castle a big enemy army will not attack.

Still the battlefield a.i. in both games makes obvious mistakes...surely they could have a walker neutral take more than one step forward when faced with ranged units. And why do they charge out when they could stay inside walls.

[Kilop]

. And now it looks better? Are you freaking kidding? What some Nival guy says, doesn't have any influence on how the game plays, and the game plays basically the same, AI-wise, since 1.2.
That means, the whole complaing is a theoretical thing; it doesn't really matter how the game plays against the AI, right? The only thing that matters is the principle: Thou shalt not cheat!
Now it turns out it doesn't, and "it looks better". It's still the same old AI. It plays the same way, how can it look better?
This discussion sure is finished for me.

QFT

JJ do you know if they will fix the way they calculate retreating in 1.4? I can't get a decent battle unless I capture someone in a castle.

QFT

[MistWeaver]

At least it doesn't do it on normal anymore.

TT, according to OldBoy, it have no resourse cheat on easy. So on normal, I belive it should pay about 70-80% of original price on everything.

But there is another problem.. solvable at least. Nival made AI on first three levels handicaped. On normal it builds once per two days, like JJ mentioned. Stupid.. Why not give it full power but remove cheats.. ?

[ThunderTitan]

QFT

You're a bit confused about what that means.

TT, according to OldBoy, it have no resourse cheat on easy. So on normal, I belive it should pay about 70-80% of original price on everything.

Great, it only plays without help when it gets restricted. And yes JJ, i know that it prob did that in the previous ones too, don't mean i have to like it.

[MistWeaver]

As was mentioned earlier we can experiment with
\GameMechanics\RPGStats\DefaultStats.xdb
to solve that.

The first thing that comes to head, is to put heroic settings on normal/easy

[fly away]

JJ do you know if they will fix the way they calculate retreating in 1.4? I can't get a decent battle unless I capture someone in a castle.

Strange to hear all these talks about retreating opponents. They've never retreated from me regardless of how bad it seemed to the opponent.

[PhoenixReborn]

Strange to hear all these talks about retreating opponents. They've never retreated from me regardless of how bad it seemed to the opponent.

Yep. They either never retreat losing the hero or they always retreat before the battle starts and you get 0 xp.

@ Mistweaver: I didn't see a mod changing retreat values on the CH mod page...since you have shown me the location I can try to go in and do it myself...but to me this is something Nival should fix.

By the way I'd recommend to everyone the mod that changes the hero paper doll to a human figure...very nice.

[DaemianLucifer]

They retreated normaly for me in 1.0 on hard.

[Sir_Toejam]

Now some official says no, that is not so.

that's not what it said at all. read again.

the AI gets cheap (read FREE, as far as i can tell from the data files), and cheap (not sure just how cheap, but following the log in the console, it looks like the AI can certainly buy more creatures than it can afford).

so, uh, that would be cheating, yes?

what difference if it gets 10k per day or not, if it doesn't have to pay anything to begin with?

Your dismissivness of folks concerns here is what borders on the absurd.

but, I guess we're all used to it by now.

[MistWeaver]

I wonder what these are for :

<EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>400</EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>
<MyTroopsHealthCoef>100</MyTroopsHealthCoef>

[Kashrlyyk]

- From patch 1.2. AI does not receive cheat money. Instead he has cheaper buildings & creatures. From equal on easy till 30% on heroic

This may be a stupid question, but does that mean AI pays 30% or 70% of the original costs?

I wonder what these are for :

<EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>400</EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>
<MyTroopsHealthCoef>100</MyTroopsHealthCoef>

Enemy has 4 times the amount of health. In which section does this appear?

[MistWeaver]

This may be a stupid question, but does that mean AI pays 30% or 70% of the original costs?

Yes it pays 3 times less for everything. So its like if you would have 90 000 on start.

I wonder what these are for :

<EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>400</EnemyTroopsHealthCoef>
<MyTroopsHealthCoef>100</MyTroopsHealthCoef>

Enemy has 4 times the amount of health.

No. That would be stupid and too aloud.

In which section does this appear?

\GameMechanics\RPGStats\DefaultStats.xdb

[Kashrlyyk]

It is in the AI combat section, so I think it determines when to attack.

Yes it pays 3 times less for everything. So its like if you would have 90 000 on start.

Great, a 70% increase in income. And that is not cheating money?

[MistWeaver]

Great, a 70% increase in income. And that is not cheating money?

It is cheat. But its better as it were pre 1.2 where AI received 10k every day if it needed at least some of them.

[ThunderTitan]

Great, a 70% increase in income. And that is not cheating money?

Yes, but at least now he has to get the money from somewhere on the map.

what difference if it gets 10k per day or not, if it doesn't have to pay anything to begin with?

See above.