Where did I say something about canonizing the games and stuff? I just said there is no solid proof of the Paradise being a separate plane etc.Corlagon wrote:It's not, and never was, up to any of us which games are canon and which aren't.Xel II wrote:especially considering that the writer who invented the Paradise had a little knowledge of M&M lore isn't worth it.
MM History question
All Slavic languages are very similar - one way or another.
Last edited by Avonu on 18 Aug 2008, 12:50, edited 1 time in total.
I'm talking about the Fiery Realm, not the Fiery Moon. And there was lava in the "Plane of Death". BTW, Kreegan-devastated world's surface is not necessarile fully covered with volcanoes and lava, look at the Sweet Water.Avonu wrote:It is rather not Fiery Moon - I don't remember that Fiery Moon was cold place and that plane was (that is why I asked about text of this dimension in English).
Sorry for that. But I think that "Plane of Death" was not lava world but has scorched earth (however I need read English version to know true).
Anyway - fiery ream couldn't be cold - who call it fiery ream if it was cold world (maybe post-atomic world
). Well apart from a G. Lucas who call cold planet Hoth.
Sweet Water have barren land - personally I think it was efect form from Kreegan Hive reactor.
Anyway - fiery ream couldn't be cold - who call it fiery ream if it was cold world (maybe post-atomic world
). Well apart from a G. Lucas who call cold planet Hoth. Sweet Water have barren land - personally I think it was efect form from Kreegan Hive reactor.
Last edited by Avonu on 18 Aug 2008, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
Lol, would you slow down. 
I can't keep up with this 
Why else do you think the Enrothians (including Tarnum) constantly used the term Demon to describe the Kreegans? They didn't pull it out of nowhere.
True to its design, Xanthor’s key opened a portal into the crystal, and into it went the party. Inside was a strange diamond walled passage guarded by gem bodied dragons and other mineral adversaries. Even these heroes who had confronted many mysteries on the elemental planes and elsewhere were taken aback, but Ewan rallied his followers. It was Ewan's daring leadership which carried them through the passage and on to the Plane Between Planes.
The Destroyer’s kingdom was a realm of madness. Formed of the base substance of chaos, the Plane Between Planes is a place ill-suited for the sustenance of more ordered beings. Though few have traveled there, it is said that weaker creature are instantly driven mad by the overbearing weight of discord. But by no means is the place uninhabited. Strange beasts constituted of nightmare energy roam the plane’s wastes; they wait for their moment to enter the dreams of other-planar dwellers.
Normally, we experience these monsters as the mental phantasms of troubled sleep, but it was their dangerous physical forms which blocked the adventurers from reaching the Destroyer’s palace. In the end however, they did win through. Along the way, they passed sculptures and buildings of incomprehensible design. These they paid little heed given the fury of the battles they faced. And so, battered and weary they entered the labyrinth domicile, and shortly found themselves in the presence of the Destroyer himself.
I can't keep up with this ???Xel II wrote:Whos said that the Underworld demons strongly resemble the Kreegan (on the pictures of them, they look different from the Kreegan).
Try common sense.Xel II wrote:And even if they do resemble them, I don't see why Ancients would not be seeding the worlds with them just because of they resemblance to the Kreegan in appearance.
Well, Xeen was a "higher project" made through worldcraft and a different type of Nacelle to the others (it was, according to the abbreviation, Experimental). But Terra, Colony and Axeoth - all of which are planets - seem to share the same seeded races.Xel II wrote:And humans, elves, dwarfs, goblinoids, halfings, gnomes are not only races the ancients seed the worlds with. There are many others, some of them aren't humanoid. For example, there are races on XEEN, which weren't on Enroth, Axeoth, Terra etc.
Yes. And where do you think myths come from in fantasy worlds like this? If people have encountered Demons before, logically they will tell stories about them. Then these stories will turn into myths centuries later.Xel II wrote:BTW, Escaton said "devils from the myth", not "demons of the Underworld" or "demons you have encountered".
Why else do you think the Enrothians (including Tarnum) constantly used the term Demon to describe the Kreegans? They didn't pull it out of nowhere.
Well, I would think they are two separate places. They differ drastically in appearance (yes, they could be in different geographical places, but I don't think a real Kreegan homeworld would be littered with so much water and bones).Xel II wrote:I believe that the "Plane of Death" (it is a nickname given by Gauldoth after all) was the Kreegan-devastated. I'm not sure if the Kreegan world Necros was banished to is the Fiery Realm and he went to the "Plane of Death" after that or is the Fiery Realm is the "Plane of Death" itself.
I see what you mean now. Here's that text. I'll use the name "Ewan" as a filler:Avonu wrote:Here you have screenshots from my version of game:
True to its design, Xanthor’s key opened a portal into the crystal, and into it went the party. Inside was a strange diamond walled passage guarded by gem bodied dragons and other mineral adversaries. Even these heroes who had confronted many mysteries on the elemental planes and elsewhere were taken aback, but Ewan rallied his followers. It was Ewan's daring leadership which carried them through the passage and on to the Plane Between Planes.
The Destroyer’s kingdom was a realm of madness. Formed of the base substance of chaos, the Plane Between Planes is a place ill-suited for the sustenance of more ordered beings. Though few have traveled there, it is said that weaker creature are instantly driven mad by the overbearing weight of discord. But by no means is the place uninhabited. Strange beasts constituted of nightmare energy roam the plane’s wastes; they wait for their moment to enter the dreams of other-planar dwellers.
Normally, we experience these monsters as the mental phantasms of troubled sleep, but it was their dangerous physical forms which blocked the adventurers from reaching the Destroyer’s palace. In the end however, they did win through. Along the way, they passed sculptures and buildings of incomprehensible design. These they paid little heed given the fury of the battles they faced. And so, battered and weary they entered the labyrinth domicile, and shortly found themselves in the presence of the Destroyer himself.
I was just pointing that out. It's not an attack against you or anything.Xel II wrote:Where did I say something about canonizing the games and stuff? I just said there is no solid proof of the Paradise being a separate plane etc.
Sweet Water had some similitaries to the "Plane of Death". And there was lava in the "Plane of Death" (see "Unholy Breath" map of Gauldoth's campaign). And after all we visited only a small part of this "Plane of Death".Corlagon wrote:Well, I would think they are two separate places. They differ drastically in appearance (yes, they could be in different geographical places, but I don't think a real Kreegan homeworld would be littered with so much water and bones).
@Avonu: I have no idea what it says. 
But here's what came afterwards, so you'll know what to look for.
“Why?” demanded Ewan. “Why, Destroyer, do you seek my world’s annihilation? We are fond of it and would have you desist.”
The deity regarded Ewan with a neutral expression. “My attention came to your world when it became plagued by devils. My investigations have uncovered that you call the event marking their coming, ‘The Night of the Comet.’ The devils, or ‘Kreegan,’ came with it. My masters made me as a weapon of last resort against them. If they appear on a world incapable of defending itself, I am called to make sure they do not propagate.”
“But we did deal with them!” exclaimed Ewan. Why, just last year, Catherine Ironfist exterminated them. Your job has already been done.”
“This I know,” said the Destroyer. “However, once I am called, I cannot be recalled. There were still Kreegan alive when my mission was assigned. So am I designed by my masters who have suffered horribly at the hands of the Kreegans.”
Ewan was stunned. “This is madness!”
“I agree,” said the Destroyer with a shake of his head. “And I would have it end, but I cannot help you directly. But suppose I were to place these keys,” he held up a ring of four gem headed keys, “on the table and then turn my back? And, if while my back was turned, those keys were to disappear, how would I know what happened to them?” And with these words, the Destroyer placed the mysterious ring of keys on the table before him and turned to regard an ornate tapestry behind his throne.
Ewan quietly stepped up to the table and pocketed the keys. With urgent hand gestures, he bid the party follow him out of the throne room and away from the enigmatic Destroyer.
---
"Once outside the palace, Ewan examined the Destroyer’s keys. The gems in their heads were of elemental heartstone—each key having one of the four types, earth, air, water, and fire. “Perhaps they open doors into some of the strange buildings here,” suggested one of the party.
It seemed like a strong possibility, so Ewan and his followers began to search the area around the palace. Some of the buildings had doors with no keyholes apparent. Others had no doors at all, being unprotected shells open to all. But there were four structures which were different. Though these had no visible doors, approaching each caused one of the Destroyer’s four keys to glow with light emitted from its gem head. There was a structure which acted in this fashion for each key. A bit of experimentation revealed that in the presence of the proper key, these structures’ walls would become as permeable as a wall of fog.
And so, the adventurers entered each of the four structures. And each was the prison of one of the four elemental lords. Since they were powerful enough to thwart the enslaving effects of the Ravenshore crystal upon their subjects, the Destroyer had imprisoned them to expedite his mission.
In a prison of water the adventurers found and freed Pyrannaste, Lord of Fire. His opposite, Acwalander, Lord of Water, they found in a cell of burning walls. The building where Gralkor the Cruel, Lord of Earth, was impossibly filled with clouds and sky, and his cell was suspended in air without any visible support. They found the Lord of Air, Shalwend, in a deep earthen cavern.
Upon his release, Shalwend thanked Ewan. “Thanks to you, my ordeal, and the ordeal of my subjects is over. I go now to set thing right in my airy realm. Between us, my brother lords and I have the power to undo the Destroyer. This we will do directly. I suggest you make haste to leave this plane and return to your own.”
---
"It was fortunate that Ewan heeded Shalwend’s urgings towards haste, else wise he and his group might have been trapped without a way back to their own plane. Stopping only when confronted by lingering opponents, the adventurers hurried across the lands of chaos, through the crystal passage, and back to the town square on Ravenshore. There they were met by Xanthor who seemed to be waiting for them.
“Good work,” said the mage, “and you’ve arrived just in time, to see the results. Step back from the crystal and behold! The elemental lords approach.”
The adventurers did as Xanthor asked. As they withdrew from the crystal’s vicinity they could feel the ground tremble as the lords, now grown to gigantic proportions, stepped into the town square. With destructive intent they focused on the crystal. Then as one, they began to hurl beams of pure elemental force upon the Destroyer’s foul gem. At first it resisted the potent energies, but then the lords stepped up their attack. As they played their mighty rays against its facets, the crystal began to glow and vibrate. A great keening note, like the tolling of a hundred church bells filled the air. And then, with an endless cacophony of shattering glass, the crystal was no more.
Their work done, the lords departed. Gralkor sunk into the ground beneath his feet, and Acwalander dissolved into a great wash of water which flowed into the Alvar river running through town. Pyrannaste became a great ball of fire which rose and then hurled itself beyond the horizon. Shalwend lifted into the air changing as he wafted up into a cloud blown on a vigorous wind. “Farewell.” he said in a fading voice. “This is your day, Heroes of Jadame. Farewell…”
And so ends the tale of the Day of the Destroyer, and of the adventure that brought Ewan to be so well known in these lands—how he, by saving the land from aboslute peril, came from complete obscurity to become the toast of all the tavern goers. What new tales will be told of this mighty adventurer, only time will tell. But as sure as Ewan roams the expanse of Jadame, I’m sure they will be many.
Also, the water and lava there has meaning. It is somewhat symbolic of Gauldoth's findings:
"Why can't everyone see the inherent goodness in destruction? Or the evil in creation? A forest cannot live without the nutrients provided by the destructive force of a forest fire. And if I am wrong, then why is the lifeblood of creation - water - the most destructive force on the planet?"
But here's what came afterwards, so you'll know what to look for.“Why?” demanded Ewan. “Why, Destroyer, do you seek my world’s annihilation? We are fond of it and would have you desist.”
The deity regarded Ewan with a neutral expression. “My attention came to your world when it became plagued by devils. My investigations have uncovered that you call the event marking their coming, ‘The Night of the Comet.’ The devils, or ‘Kreegan,’ came with it. My masters made me as a weapon of last resort against them. If they appear on a world incapable of defending itself, I am called to make sure they do not propagate.”
“But we did deal with them!” exclaimed Ewan. Why, just last year, Catherine Ironfist exterminated them. Your job has already been done.”
“This I know,” said the Destroyer. “However, once I am called, I cannot be recalled. There were still Kreegan alive when my mission was assigned. So am I designed by my masters who have suffered horribly at the hands of the Kreegans.”
Ewan was stunned. “This is madness!”
“I agree,” said the Destroyer with a shake of his head. “And I would have it end, but I cannot help you directly. But suppose I were to place these keys,” he held up a ring of four gem headed keys, “on the table and then turn my back? And, if while my back was turned, those keys were to disappear, how would I know what happened to them?” And with these words, the Destroyer placed the mysterious ring of keys on the table before him and turned to regard an ornate tapestry behind his throne.
Ewan quietly stepped up to the table and pocketed the keys. With urgent hand gestures, he bid the party follow him out of the throne room and away from the enigmatic Destroyer.
---
"Once outside the palace, Ewan examined the Destroyer’s keys. The gems in their heads were of elemental heartstone—each key having one of the four types, earth, air, water, and fire. “Perhaps they open doors into some of the strange buildings here,” suggested one of the party.
It seemed like a strong possibility, so Ewan and his followers began to search the area around the palace. Some of the buildings had doors with no keyholes apparent. Others had no doors at all, being unprotected shells open to all. But there were four structures which were different. Though these had no visible doors, approaching each caused one of the Destroyer’s four keys to glow with light emitted from its gem head. There was a structure which acted in this fashion for each key. A bit of experimentation revealed that in the presence of the proper key, these structures’ walls would become as permeable as a wall of fog.
And so, the adventurers entered each of the four structures. And each was the prison of one of the four elemental lords. Since they were powerful enough to thwart the enslaving effects of the Ravenshore crystal upon their subjects, the Destroyer had imprisoned them to expedite his mission.
In a prison of water the adventurers found and freed Pyrannaste, Lord of Fire. His opposite, Acwalander, Lord of Water, they found in a cell of burning walls. The building where Gralkor the Cruel, Lord of Earth, was impossibly filled with clouds and sky, and his cell was suspended in air without any visible support. They found the Lord of Air, Shalwend, in a deep earthen cavern.
Upon his release, Shalwend thanked Ewan. “Thanks to you, my ordeal, and the ordeal of my subjects is over. I go now to set thing right in my airy realm. Between us, my brother lords and I have the power to undo the Destroyer. This we will do directly. I suggest you make haste to leave this plane and return to your own.”
---
"It was fortunate that Ewan heeded Shalwend’s urgings towards haste, else wise he and his group might have been trapped without a way back to their own plane. Stopping only when confronted by lingering opponents, the adventurers hurried across the lands of chaos, through the crystal passage, and back to the town square on Ravenshore. There they were met by Xanthor who seemed to be waiting for them.
“Good work,” said the mage, “and you’ve arrived just in time, to see the results. Step back from the crystal and behold! The elemental lords approach.”
The adventurers did as Xanthor asked. As they withdrew from the crystal’s vicinity they could feel the ground tremble as the lords, now grown to gigantic proportions, stepped into the town square. With destructive intent they focused on the crystal. Then as one, they began to hurl beams of pure elemental force upon the Destroyer’s foul gem. At first it resisted the potent energies, but then the lords stepped up their attack. As they played their mighty rays against its facets, the crystal began to glow and vibrate. A great keening note, like the tolling of a hundred church bells filled the air. And then, with an endless cacophony of shattering glass, the crystal was no more.
Their work done, the lords departed. Gralkor sunk into the ground beneath his feet, and Acwalander dissolved into a great wash of water which flowed into the Alvar river running through town. Pyrannaste became a great ball of fire which rose and then hurled itself beyond the horizon. Shalwend lifted into the air changing as he wafted up into a cloud blown on a vigorous wind. “Farewell.” he said in a fading voice. “This is your day, Heroes of Jadame. Farewell…”
And so ends the tale of the Day of the Destroyer, and of the adventure that brought Ewan to be so well known in these lands—how he, by saving the land from aboslute peril, came from complete obscurity to become the toast of all the tavern goers. What new tales will be told of this mighty adventurer, only time will tell. But as sure as Ewan roams the expanse of Jadame, I’m sure they will be many.
Well, you can compare Jorm with Malustar, Garagreen, Calh, Axsis or any other Kreegans in the games. They do look quite similar, though Jorm's complexion is a little darker (maybe because he lives underground).Xel II wrote:Don't forget thet Xeron is haf-human.
I can't really believe that it wasn't the Plane of Death. The story strongly, strongly implies it, and there's no other such Plane that I know of.Xel II wrote:Sweet Water had some similitaries to the "Plane of Death". And there was lava in the "Plane of Death" (see "Unholy Breath" map of Gauldoth's campaign). And after all we visited only a small part of this "Plane of Death".
Also, the water and lava there has meaning. It is somewhat symbolic of Gauldoth's findings:
"Why can't everyone see the inherent goodness in destruction? Or the evil in creation? A forest cannot live without the nutrients provided by the destructive force of a forest fire. And if I am wrong, then why is the lifeblood of creation - water - the most destructive force on the planet?"
Last edited by Corlagon on 18 Aug 2008, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
Well, there is no solid proof that the Underworld Demons gave birth to this legends. There are legends about demons on Earth, have you ever met a person who encountered demons? I don't think soCorlagon wrote:Yes. And where do you think myths come from in fantasy worlds like this? If people have encountered Demons before, logically they will tell stories about them. Then these stories will turn into myths centuries later.
Why else do you think the Enrothians (including Tarnum) constantly used the term Demon to describe the Kreegans? They didn't pull it out of nowhere.
and Escaton said "in the times of Silence you forgot about the Kreegan's origin".Again, even if the "Demons" have strongly resemblant appearance to the Kreegans, that doesn't mean the Ancients wouldn't seed the worlds with them.
The only thing which implies that this was the plane is the name "Plane of Death", which is the nickname given by Gauldoth, who could easily be wrong about this.Corlagon wrote:I can't really believe that it wasn't the Plane of Death. The story strongly, strongly implies it, and there's no other such Plane that I know of.
The people on Earth have been here for a tad longer than 1300 years.Xel II wrote:There are legends about demons on Earth, have you ever met a person who encountered demons? I don't think so
Which only fuels the idea that they confused the Kreegans with the Demons. They were expecting an invasion from the Enemy, after all.Xel II wrote:and Escaton said "in the times of Silence you forgot about the Kreegan's origin".
Well, from what we know they didn't seed any other worlds with Demons. So why is Colony / Enroth so special, considering that the Ancients were trying to populate an "unfettered Promised Land"? And besides, it doesn't take a lot of brains to know that putting Demons on a world which will likely be invaded by creatures who look the very same is a no-no. The Ancients did have a lot of brains, seemingly, so...Xel II wrote:Again, even if the "Demons" have strongly resemblant appearance to the Kreegans, that doesn't mean the Ancients wouldn't seed the worlds with them.
But no evidence suggests that he was wrong. A lot of evidence suggests that he was right. Let's give Occam's Razor a try.Xel II wrote:The only thing which implies that this was the plane is the name "Plane of Death", which is the nickname given by Gauldoth, who could easily be wrong about this.
"Unfettered Promised Land" is from colonists' point of view. And there were Demons on CRON, similiar to those from the Underworld. As well as on VARN 4 and XEEN. And the fact that the Underworld Demons have similitaries to the Kreegan in terms of appearance doesn't mean they are one and the same or look exactly like the Kreegans.Corlagon wrote:Well, from what we know they didn't seed any other worlds with Demons. So why is Colony / Enroth so special, considering that the Ancients were trying to populate an "unfettered Promised Land"? And besides, it doesn't take a lot of brains to know that putting Demons on a world which will likely be invaded by creatures who look the very same is a no-no. The Ancients did have a lot of brains, seemingly, so...
And no evidence suggest he was right (the fact of being cold doesn't make place a plane). Do, lets assume this matter unsolved. Maybe LotA will have some information about it (both you and me assume LotA canon).Corlagon wrote:But no evidence suggests that he was wrong. A lot of evidence suggests that he was right. Let's give Occam's Razor a try.
Actually, I believe the Ancients wrote this:Xel II wrote:"Unfettered Promised Land" is from colonists' point of view.
"Though the Crossing of the Void be a long and arduous journey, the land you find at the end will be sweet and unspoiled by ancestors or the Enemy. Take heart that your children's children will live in a perfect world free of war, free of famine, and free of fear. Remember your sacred duty to care for the Ship on her long Voyage and ensure her safe arrival in the Promised Land. Tend well the Guardian and house it securely away from the ship lest both be lost in a single misfortune."
It was their ship after all.
Well that just supports this even more. If the Underworld is a separate plane, the Demons within can find their way to other worlds through portals - such as the Cerberus Gate.Xel II wrote:And there were Demons on CRON, similiar to those from the Underworld.
Probably Kreegans.Xel II wrote:As well as on VARN 4 and XEEN.
I don't recall saying they are one and the same. Totally separate races, as we both know.Xel II wrote:And the fact that the Underworld Demons have similitaries to the Kreegan in terms of appearance doesn't mean they are one and the same
-- which they do.Xel II wrote:or look exactly like the Kreegans.
1. Gauldoth called it the Plane of Death.Xel II wrote:And no evidence suggest he was right
2. Terry Ray called it the Plane of Death.
3. There is definitiely a Plane of Death in the MM Universe.
4. It was attuned to the Unholy Breath and the Deadwood Staff, both of which bring death.
5. There are quite a large number of dead things within.
6. There are no living things within.
7. There is a God of Death there. Gods of Death are traditionally known for dwelling in Planes of Death.
8. We assume that this God is Necros. Necros is an extremely powerful Necromancer. Guess where he might hang out.
9. There is water there. Gauldoth believes that water is the essence of destruction.
10. Same for lava.
11. It is not the Fiery Realm, as the Fiery Realm was fiery. The Plane of Death is not so fiery at all.
etc, etc.
I'm going to drop this for now, maybe we'll pick it up later. Thanks for the debate.
1. Doesn't make it a plane.Corlagon wrote:1. Gauldoth called it the Plane of Death.
2. Terry Ray called it the Plane of Death.
3. There is definitiely a Plane of Death in the MM Universe.
4. It was attuned to the Unholy Breath and the Deadwood Staff, both of which bring death.
5. There are quite a large number of dead things within.
6. There are no living things within.
7. There is a God of Death there. Gods of Death are traditionally known for dwelling in Planes of Death.
8. We assume that this God is Necros. Necros is an extremely powerful Necromancer. Guess where he might hang out.
9. There is water there. Gauldoth believes that water is the essence of destruction.
10. Same for lava.
11. It is not the Fiery Realm, as the Fiery Realm was fiery. The Plane of Death is not so fiery at all.
etc, etc.
I'm going to drop this for now, maybe we'll pick it up later. Thanks for the debate.
2. We never seen Terry Ray calling it the Plane of Death.
3. No proof for that.
4. "God of Death" was attuned.
5. Doesn't make it a plane.
6. Doesn't make it a plane.
7. He wasn't called God of Death within the storyline.
8. No proof for that.
9. Doesn't make it a plane and what Gauldoth believed doesn't matter in this case.
10. Doesn't make it a plane and what Gauldoth believed doesn't matter in this case.
11. Doesn't make it a plane.
Yes. It was the Promised Land. For the colonists.Corlagon wrote:Actually, I believe the Ancients wrote this:
"Though the Crossing of the Void be a long and arduous journey, the land you find at the end will be sweet and unspoiled by ancestors or the Enemy. Take heart that your children's children will live in a perfect world free of war, free of famine, and free of fear. Remember your sacred duty to care for the Ship on her long Voyage and ensure her safe arrival in the Promised Land. Tend well the Guardian and house it securely away from the ship lest both be lost in a single misfortune."
It was their ship after all.
The only Kreegan with whom Jorm looks incredibly similiar is Xeron, who is half-Kreegan. Jorm doesn't look similiar to Malustar etc. There are a lot of differences between them.Corlagon wrote:-- which they do.Xel II wrote:or look exactly like the Kreegans.
Yes, but you said that some similitaries with the Kreegan in appearance Underworld Demons have mean that the Ancients can't seed the worlds with them.Corlagon wrote:I don't recall saying they are one and the same. Totally separate races, as we both know.Xel II wrote:And the fact that the Underworld Demons have similitaries to the Kreegan in terms of appearance doesn't mean they are one and the same
No evidence for this.Corlagon wrote:Probably Kreegans.Xel II wrote:As well as on VARN 4 and XEEN.
It was never said anywhere that the Cerberus Gate is the portal. And it looks like a cavern entrance and the Underworld is described in CotU as caverns and tunnels.Corlagon wrote:Well that just supports this even more. If the Underworld is a separate plane, the Demons within can find their way to other worlds through portals - such as the Cerberus Gate.
Wow. This has developed into quite the non-argument.
I propose that we stop this descending spiral-shaped debate and discuss something else of substance within the storyline. There's only so much I can do to convince you of things, after all. If your mind is set, I can't change that
Anyway. One thing.
If a character says something, is not lying, and is not mistaken to our knowledge, then they are correct. This is fundamental. I can't understand why you'd argue against this without any evidence to prove your claims. Doing so is pointless. We work with facts that are likely. It is not likely that Gauldoth was wrong; therefore, we assume he was right.
I propose that we stop this descending spiral-shaped debate and discuss something else of substance within the storyline. There's only so much I can do to convince you of things, after all. If your mind is set, I can't change that
Anyway. One thing.
If a character says something, is not lying, and is not mistaken to our knowledge, then they are correct. This is fundamental. I can't understand why you'd argue against this without any evidence to prove your claims. Doing so is pointless. We work with facts that are likely. It is not likely that Gauldoth was wrong; therefore, we assume he was right.
So we can assume that the Kreegans were sent by the gods to punish mortals for their sins. And there is absolutely no evidence suggesting Gauldoth was wrong nor evidence suggesting he was right.Corlagon wrote:If a character says something, is not lying, and is not mistaken to our knowledge, then they are correct. This is fundamental. I can't understand why you'd argue against this without any evidence to prove your claims. Doing so is pointless. We work with facts that are likely. It is not likely that Gauldoth was wrong; therefore, we assume he was right.
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