What was the Forge incident?

[Jolly Joker]

Actually the biggest error was indeed to pull the Forge:

GF: Reason One: As much as I thought the actions of many fans showed a lack of vision and an inherent distrust for a company who have given them hundreds of hours of quality gameplay, I still didn't want to fight our fans. Reason Two: There wasn't enough pro-Forge activity.

Very bad decision and complete bull. Let "the fans" once have it their way and they won't stop - after all, if it worked once it may work always. Worse - they come to EXPECT they may have a say in how things are developing, and suddenly what was called developers are not doing but they want to do, but scrap their ideas and do half-hearted, half-baked compomise solutions.

There will have been reasons to go for that kind of Cyber-scenario, and people are either believing in their vision or not. If they do, they should stick to it - that's what made the game great in the first place. After all, it was an EXPANSION, a side lane, if you want to.

I actually was in contact with some developers at the time. The atmosphere on the Heroes board was great before the incident, with developers talking daily with the visitors, sharing ideas, having fun, enjoying their work und sure they would deliver something very good.
That vanished after the Forge. Developers got secretive and shunned the boards - for good reason. They had lost a lot of their spirit, and things never were the same after that.

The naked fact is that some people with a very aggressive and egoistic attitude destroyed a lot. Rather than accepting that they might not like an expansion of their favorite game and pass on it or simply give it a chance, trusting the vision of a "company who have given them hundreds of hours of quality gameplay", they decided to use pressure, and in some cases influence, to press their point. The so-called "concerned parents" were, I'm ready to place a bet on, a fake action: bogus. Sadly not only THEY got what they deserved with the AB expansion, everyone else got it as well - and a lot more unwished for things at that.
Of course, they share the blame with those at 3do and nwc who actually made the decision and destroyed the rest.
A pity.

[Metathron]

I agree with your post, even though I remember I wasn't too hot on the idea of the Forge at first, but it wasn't a big deal. But it's like you say, you can skip it or grow to like it. I think I would have liked it after giving it a chance.

I would like to hear your opinion on the following:

Very bad decision and complete bull. Let "the fans" once have it their way and they won't stop - after all, if it worked once it may work always. Worse - they come to EXPECT they may have a say in how things are developing, and suddenly what was called developers are not doing but they want to do, but scrap their ideas and do half-hearted, half-baked compomise solutions.

Blizzard, for example, is acting very openly with regards to the development of Starcraft 2, gathering all sorts of input from fansites and forums, and sometimes changing things (minor details, for the most part, but still) according to their (our) wishes. Do you think they're ultimately just setting themselves up?

[ThunderTitan]

The took out the Soul Hunter and reworked a few units looks/abilities, so it's not just minor things.

[Kristo]

Blizzard, for example, is acting very openly with regards to the development of Starcraft 2, gathering all sorts of input from fansites and forums, and sometimes changing things (minor details, for the most part, but still) according to their (our) wishes. Do you think they're ultimately just setting themselves up?

I don't think so. What JJ means by "the fans" is an extremely small, extremely loud subset of the installed base. Most people that play games never post on a message board. Most of the people who do post regularly had nothing to say about the Forge.

Re Blizzard, it's good business for them to listen to its most devoted customers, i.e., the ones who enjoy it enough to discuss it regularly online, and tweak little things here and there. I seriously doubt they would go through a complete rewrite based on a handful of (loud) whiners.

As I recall, the negative reaction (including mine) to the Forge was largely due to ignorance of the broader story. For JVC and company, everything goes back to MM1. For a lot of the Heroes players, everything starts with either Heroes 1 or 2, both of which make no mention of the sci-fi aspects of the MM universe. If you hadn't ever played a MM game, the whole sci-fi thing came out of nowhere. Where NWC went awry was in not reinforcing that idea in the Heroes series from the beginning. Case in point: the Inferno creatures are aliens that look like demons. A Heroes-only player says: . In that sense, Heroes is more a multiplayer version of King's Bounty than a MM game.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Some people just can't handle change.

[difool]

I don't believe that the decision to replace the Forge with the Conflux directly contributed to the downfall, but I believe it was a factor.

Mainly because it seemed to be the first of many badly rushed, imbalanced expansions/products for the Might and Magic line. It's almost as though, in the frenzy to get Armageddon's Blade done after the design shift in midstream, those in charge of release dates figured that the production team ought to be able to make any expansion in the amount of time it took to switch things over.

If you can pinpoint the moment at which NWC sold its soul, it was here. Before then the Heroes games were most certainly labors of love, and it showed. After that the series began its slide into crass commercialism, signified most notably by the decision to release H4 early in an almost hopelessly unplayable state, despite some very worthy ideas. H4 was then followed up by some extremely half-baked expansions (at which point I bailed on the franchise), NWC's publisher went belly up, and you know the rest (trying not to comment on H5 as that is a debate for another forum).

I never played any of the M&M RPGs, so the comments by Greg Fulton (tho I must have read them once in the distant past) very much surprise me. "Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe." Oh really? So there's no supernatural foundation, no true Heavenly Host, nor fundamentally Demonic Netherworld? Well excuse me for continuing to play it as if it is; for me the Forge, no matter what justifications it might have from some obscure backstory, simply didn't fit the milieu at all. The Conflux, tho hardly the pinnacle of creativity, at least did fit in.

[Jolly Joker]

I .

I would like to hear your opinion on the following:

Very bad decision and complete bull. Let "the fans" once have it their way and they won't stop - after all, if it worked once it may work always. Worse - they come to EXPECT they may have a say in how things are developing, and suddenly what was called developers are not doing but they want to do, but scrap their ideas and do half-hearted, half-baked compomise solutions.

Blizzard, for example, is acting very openly with regards to the development of Starcraft 2, gathering all sorts of input from fansites and forums, and sometimes changing things (minor details, for the most part, but still) according to their (our) wishes. Do you think they're ultimately just setting themselves up?

Actually that's a very good way to go in my opinion. The developer sets some kind of frame in which people can live out their creativity - however, THEY decide what they take or change.
For the Forge that might have meant, for example, that they could have posted a unit list and some thoughts about it, while asking the fans to contribute ideas for "Cyber"-units - which might have resulted in a very unspectacular removing of bare-breasted Naga-Tanks (were not planned anyway) or even Naga-Tanks as a whole and putting in something like a Mech Death Knight or whatever, the Mech Reaper, who knows.
MUCH earlier they could even have asked for town suggestions - but that's always a difficult thing. People put a lot of work into such elaborate suggestions and it's bound to lead to a lot of disappointment or even accusations of unfairness or stolen ideas and so on.
However, if the developers do HAVE a certain vision they want to follow it's their right to pull it through and disregard other suggestions, especially those uncalled for.
Secondly, those things are done, have to be done, in a very early stage - it happened with Heroes 5 as well. However, there will always come the point when the base concept of a game more or less stands, and then it has to keep standing, otherwise everyone will be disappointed. One reason for the "Unfinished" look of H 5's base game is certainly the fact that a large amount of time was wasted with an approach that didn't work and they have never been able to make good that time.

[Corlagon]

I never played any of the M&M RPGs, so the comments by Greg Fulton (tho I must have read them once in the distant past) very much surprise me. "Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe." Oh really? So there's no supernatural foundation, no true Heavenly Host, nor fundamentally Demonic Netherworld?

In a word, no, absolutely not.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

For JVC and company, everything goes back to MM1. For a lot of the Heroes players, everything starts with either Heroes 1 or 2, both of which make no mention of the sci-fi aspects of the MM universe. If you hadn't ever played a MM game, the whole sci-fi thing came out of nowhere. Where NWC went awry was in not reinforcing that idea in the Heroes series from the beginning.

That's what I've thought for years as the prime reason for difference of opinion between HoMM fans and developers.

Most HOMM2-HOMM3 fans got into the MM games with MM6, and although they enjoyed it (I sure did), many were put off by the sci-fi elements, robots, and blaster rifles at the end of the story. And like you pointed out many HOMM fans didn't even play a MM game when the Forge was announced, much less even suspect there was sci-fi stuff in them.

They set themselves up for it by not including any sci-fi stuff at all in the first three Heroes games.

[Humakt]

Fan is just four letters short of fanatic. I think it would be better for the companies either to seemingly "ignore" fans or practice heavy censorship in their forums, yet taking notions of constructive criticism and good suggestions.

[Jolly Joker]

They set themselves up for it by not including any sci-fi stuff at all in the first three Heroes games.

You mean, you can't introduce new elements into a series?

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Don't get me wrong JJ, I was not against Forge (only thought some of its units looked ridiculously cheesy). I'm just trying to explain why there was much dissent at the time.

As far as I'm concerned I'd have preferred a Forge over the Conflux we have now. I'm as anti-Conflux as anyone can be. I really do hate it. I would have liked a Forge that would have been grossly overpowered on purpose, but optional (and not selectable on "random town" map start locations for multiplayer balance). It could have worked.

[Meandor]

That's what I've thought for years as the prime reason for difference of opinion between HoMM fans and developers.

Most HOMM2-HOMM3 fans got into the MM games with MM6, and although they enjoyed it (I sure did), many were put off by the sci-fi elements, robots, and blaster rifles at the end of the story. And like you pointed out many HOMM fans didn't even play a MM game when the Forge was announced, much less even suspect there was sci-fi stuff in them.

They set themselves up for it by not including any sci-fi stuff at all in the first three Heroes games.

BS. Would it be fine if they introduced sci-fi in original H3? Or in H2/exapnshion of H2? I can`t see any difference. H1 is out of question, i doubt they were even thinking about linking MM and HoMM at that time.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

As far as I'm concerned I would have gladly accepted whatever sci-fi elements they wanted as long as it looked good and they put effort into it
(Which definitely isn't the case with half-baked Conflux)

[UndeadHalfOrc]

By the way, on another thread Corlagon suggested that what could have been the Forge town theme is "BladeABCampaign.mp3" located in the MP3 folder.

[Corlagon]

It does sound pretty Forge-like, though 'twas only a guess... maybe it was, maybe it wasn't

[Darmani]

That's what I've thought for years as the prime reason for difference of opinion between HoMM fans and developers.

Most HOMM2-HOMM3 fans got into the MM games with MM6, and although they enjoyed it (I sure did), many were put off by the sci-fi elements, robots, and blaster rifles at the end of the story. And like you pointed out many HOMM fans didn't even play a MM game when the Forge was announced, much less even suspect there was sci-fi stuff in them.

They set themselves up for it by not including any sci-fi stuff at all in the first three Heroes games.

BS. Would it be fine if they introduced sci-fi in original H3? Or in H2/exapnshion of H2? I can`t see any difference. H1 is out of question, i doubt they were even thinking about linking MM and HoMM at that time.

It would have been fine if they included enough Sci Fi earlier on to make all players know that there is Sci Fi. For example, if all the Inferno units had descriptions containing snippets about their extraterrestrial histories, or if H2 made it clear why so many heroes had odd, alien appearances, I'm sure many HoMM fans would have been much less shocked when the Forge was announced.

[HodgePodge]

… I never played any of the M&M RPGs, so the comments by Greg Fulton (tho I must have read them once in the distant past) very much surprise me. "Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe." Oh really? So there's no supernatural foundation, no true Heavenly Host, nor fundamentally Demonic Netherworld? Well excuse me for continuing to play it as if it is; for me the Forge, no matter what justifications it might have from some obscure backstory, simply didn't fit the milieu at all. The Conflux, tho hardly the pinnacle of creativity, at least did fit in.

For JVC and company, everything goes back to MM1. For a lot of the Heroes players, everything starts with either Heroes 1 or 2, both of which make no mention of the sci-fi aspects of the MM universe. If you hadn't ever played a MM game, the whole sci-fi thing came out of nowhere. Where NWC went awry was in not reinforcing that idea in the Heroes series from the beginning.

That's what I've thought for years as the prime reason for difference of opinion between HoMM fans and developers.

Most HOMM2-HOMM3 fans got into the MM games with MM6, and although they enjoyed it (I sure did), many were put off by the sci-fi elements, robots, and blaster rifles at the end of the story. And like you pointed out many HOMM fans didn't even play a MM game when the Forge was announced, much less even suspect there was sci-fi stuff in them.

They set themselves up for it by not including any sci-fi stuff at all in the first three Heroes games.

This is exactly how I began my journey through the Might & Magic Universe … with Heroes I & Heroes II. Then Might & Magic VI. I was stunned when the Control Center, Robot Creatures & Blasters showed up in the end part of the game. I never played Might & Magic 1-5 and had no idea that there were any connections to Sci-Fi elements in any of the storylines before I got to the end of Might & Magic VI.

Clearly, I hated the Sci-Fi elements, but since most of the game took place in a Medieval Fantasy world, I was willing to 'forgive' the intrusion of Sci-Fi into MY fantasy world.

Not so when 3do/NWC introduced the Forge Town for Armageddon's Blade. The Techo Type Town just seemed so opposite to the tone of Heroes games with Castles, Quests, Artifacts, Magic Spells, Mythological Creatures, etc. I am one of those people who love the Conflux Town; it fits perfectly into Heroes of Might & Magic.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Conflux may "fit" more, but you have to admit that the design is unoriginal. They just took the 4 elements (that can already be summoned by any hero with the correspinding level 5 spell) and added the H2's sprite and phoenix, with only 1 true new unit (and psychic/magic elemental is dumb, the H3 spell system already established that there are only 4 elements total )Half baked!
Umbalanced as hell, too. 4 phoenixes per week? 4 out of 7 units immune to armageddon? Grail structures gives all spells? Elementalists being way better than Warlocks/Wizards/Clerics/Druids? Not surprising many online tournaments banned it.

[ThunderTitan]

H1 is out of question, i doubt they were even thinking about linking MM and HoMM at that time.

Yeah, it's not like the backstory had any interplanetary portals, or passing from a red sun to a yellow one (Morglin was so an ancient Kryptonian), differences in gravity and humidity...


Of course the Forge creatures were rather uninspired... maybe a bit more then the Conflux ones. But i've always found HoMM expansions lacking in inspiration... even the art seemed crappier.