HoMM III: Best level 1 creature

[Humakt]

Who says? If Rampart wants to destroy huge armies of slow walkers on the first few turns, he can just start massing Grand Elves (which is, of course, why Rampart should rush the Grand Elves and not wait till the start of the second week). If Castle wants to do the same he can mass Marksmen.

You can't do it day 1 with castle (unless you start the map with second level dwelling) and rampart, so your point is obsolete. Not to mention the speed of the Sprites that allow heroes move faster than with any other first level creatures which gives Conflux player distinct advantage. That's speed for you.

[Jolly Joker]

I agree with you to some extent, for example it may not seem fair to consider necromancy as a pro for skeletons, but on the other hand, why not? Also, it may not be realistic to expect people to view the creatures in isolation or pit them against one another in duels that would never happen in an actual game (though it's fun!).

In my experience, words such as "best" or "greatest" elude definition precisely because they are so all-encompassing and open to interpretation. This can be just as much of a curse as it can a blessing. Personally, I am enjoying the diversity of viewpoints exhibited herein.

The Skeletons "excel" only with a certain hero type. So it's the HERO that makes them great. With this line of argumentation you could vote for Hobgoblins because with Terek you can Haste on them immediately and rush to the other side of the battlefield or Troglodytes because you always play Shakti get three stacks of them immediately and when Shakti is level 25 the Trogs are better than all level 2s.
The same is true for Master Gremlins: if you rate Master Gremlins because they do a lot of work for Tower you rate in effect a combo, not the Gremlin(s) because you simply don't let the Gremlins fight alone (the same is true for Marksmen and Elves, by the way - they need help or they will be withered down. They are great - but only in combination with other troops

That leaves the single unit and the numbers/price view.
My opinion here is that BOTH should be taken into account - the single unit as a unit AND the quantity in which they come. The single unit alone is not enough because that would make the Wraith best level 3 by far which can't be right.

My reasoning here is then: Centaur Caps are great, but won't be ever used early because the Wood for the upgrade is needed for the Elves who will be a always favored since they have a much higher killing potential. Which means, that when we see Caps they have a supporting role, not more and for that they are expensive.
The same is true for Halberdiers.
The thing is different for Sprites. In the beginning they have a nearly unlimited killing potential and they are a power on their own. They will have first strike against every other level one except Master Gremlins and they will obliterate every other weekly production of level one units with ease, having 2 strikes for example against Centaur Caps which will kill 2 thirds of them.

So Sprites are best level 1 unit for me.

[Metathron]

The Skeletons "excel" only with a certain hero type. So it's the HERO that makes them great. With this line of argumentation you could vote for Hobgoblins because with Terek you can Haste on them immediately and rush to the other side of the battlefield or Troglodytes because you always play Shakti get three stacks of them immediately and when Shakti is level 25 the Trogs are better than all level 2s.

Don't really know how you pulled that from my post, but anyhow, no, I disagree that skeletons excel only with a certain hero type. On the surface level, they excel because of their excellent attack and defense ratings, therefore it is their attack and defense ratings that make them a good unit. Then we can proceed to evaluate any secondary (say, necromancy) or tertiary (say, heroes/spells/building requirements/resources available) factors, such as calculating whether to upgrade now or later and whatnot. That's how I see it, at least.

[Jolly Joker]

No matter how you put it, there is no way the Skeleton Warrior can be considered best level 1 with any other reason than the massive quantities you get either by Necromancy or the Skeleton Transformer or both.
This might make Demon best level 4 then.

[Muszka]

I'm pretty sure, that Skeletrons are great with any hero, not just because of their average stats, but mainly because of their number. I won't even upgrade them till I have about 500 of them, and you can't even say, that's an average stack. And if you talk about number/price the skeletron is the best as you can count the ones from necromancy as gotten for free.

[Kristo]

I voted for Halberdiers. I use them in a defensive role anyway, so their average speed doesn't bother me.

[Metathron]

No matter how you put it, there is no way the Skeleton Warrior can be considered best level 1 with any other reason than the massive quantities you get either by Necromancy or the Skeleton Transformer or both.
This might make Demon best level 4 then.

Oh, you actually can put it in many different ways, it's just that you choose to see it one way, and you're entitled to that. However, at least one person obviously considers the skeletons as the best, and it doesn't seem terribly far fetched to me.

As for your skeleton-demon analogy, if I understand what you mean by it, I think it's pretty clumsy. When playing the necropolis, you will always start with a hero with the necromancy skill, and almost from day one, you will start punching out extra skeletons and reinforcing their ranks. For demons to multiply on the battlefield you need to have a stack of pit lords and, what is worse, have one of your own stacks perish so you can raise demons out of it, which in itself is a desperate measure. Thus, the two are incomparable.

[Jolly Joker]

No matter how you put it, there is no way the Skeleton Warrior can be considered best level 1 with any other reason than the massive quantities you get either by Necromancy or the Skeleton Transformer or both.
This might make Demon best level 4 then.

Oh, you actually can put it in many different ways, it's just that you choose to see it one way, and you're entitled to that. However, at least one person obviously considers the skeletons as the best, and it doesn't seem terribly far fetched to me.

As for your skeleton-demon analogy, if I understand what you mean by it, I think it's pretty clumsy. When playing the necropolis, you will always start with a hero with the necromancy skill, and almost from day one, you will start punching out extra skeletons and reinforcing their ranks. For demons to multiply on the battlefield you need to have a stack of pit lords and, what is worse, have one of your own stacks perish so you can raise demons out of it, which in itself is a desperate measure. Thus, the two are incomparable.

You just need another unit out of your town (which isn't so different from your town specific hero you need for skeletons) to be able to call them back if they die, NOT TO MENTION the fact that you can easily add to their ranks by sacrificing imps. Whether you get Demons from your own troops or from enemy troops shouldn't matter at all for the sake of this argument - if you'd somehow be able to completely transform ALL your units into demons that would make DEMONS multiply and make demons best - following the Skeleton logic.
The difference is, you can only do it with a Necro or Death Knight. With any other hero you can't, whereas for all other creatures these considerations are not valid - a Vampire Lord is great no matter the hero.

Anyway, you'd have to make additions as well - on a small map Skeletons will not be best, even considering Necromancy. The effect of Necromancy is hard to gauge.

In the end, on any map not small Skeletons MAY have a deep impact - but Gremlins as well, Sprites may win you the map before it really starts and Halberdiers may be surprisingly durable with a Knight and Armorer and so on.
I think that even in the USE you have for your level ones Sprites surpass Sleketons - if you play Flux against Necro THEY will have to make sure that you win the map BEFORE Skeletons may get unmanagable, and they CAN do it.

[Gaidal Cain]

The same is true for Master Gremlins: if you rate Master Gremlins because they do a lot of work for Tower you rate in effect a combo, not the Gremlin(s) because you simply don't let the Gremlins fight alone (the same is true for Marksmen and Elves, by the way - they need help or they will be withered down. They are great - but only in combination with other troops

Gremlins aren't really that great at that task either. They're damn important for Tower, but that doesn't make them a good unit.

The thing is different for Sprites. In the beginning they have a nearly unlimited killing potential and they are a power on their own. They will have first strike against every other level one except Master Gremlins and they will obliterate every other weekly production of level one units with ease, having 2 strikes for example against Centaur Caps which will kill 2 thirds of them.

I think your measure grossly overestimate them. There is no point in checking what they can do against creatures of the same level, becuase if that is not typically what they are supposed to face, your not measuring the right thing (Mighty Gorgons would be the obvious example why this is a bad idea). Sprites are only good if you can manage to avoid having them hit. Sure, they could obliterate a weeks worth of centaurs, but what good is that when you want to fight some archers - or the centaurs are split on four stacks against your one stack of sprites? Sprites are good against anything which is slower than them or doesn't shoot. If the enemy doesn't fulfill those conditions, sprites are useless without further support.

[Metathron]

NOT TO MENTION the fact that you can easily add to their ranks by sacrificing imps.

Doesn't the number of raised demons depend on the number of pit lords and the hit points of the slain allied stack? I don't see how you can obtain a noteworthy amount of demons from imps unless you're killing off huge quantities of imps, and to be frank, I'd rather have my imps than demons.

Whether you get Demons from your own troops or from enemy troops shouldn't matter at all for the sake of this argument

You can get demons only from allied stacks which presupposes dying on your part, and quite a lot of it, if you'd like to raise a decent amount of demons. This seems pretty detrimental for your army as a whole, so I believe it very much matters in the big picture.

[Meandor]

Sprites are good against anything which is slower than them or doesn't shoot. If the enemy doesn't fulfill those conditions, sprites are useless without further support.

And that makes them superior unit to any other tier 1 creature without support

[Jolly Joker]

So you can't play Conflux and you can't play Inferno either.
No problem, I never was so great with Tower.

[Sir William S Titan]

Skeletons get my vote.

If the centuars only took up 1 hex, they would've got it. It would take 6 to surround the skeletons. And, if placed right, it would take only 4 to surround the centuar. So, skeleton has more mobility. Plus, using the breath attack, or certain spells, it is easier to not hit your own units. Though, that last bit could be dealt with by the use of tactics, but still..

[Pol]

Centaur Captains get my vote. You can amass them fast without any extra skill, they are very durable and speedy. Putting them standalone I'm sure that they would secure domination among other low level candidates.

[HodgePodge]

Finally decided on Sprites. With their amazing growth and no retaliation but Centuar Captains were a close second.

[Banedon]

You can't do it day 1 with castle (unless you start the map with second level dwelling) and rampart, so your point is obsolete. Not to mention the speed of the Sprites that allow heroes move faster than with any other first level creatures which gives Conflux player distinct advantage. That's speed for you.

Not really. Day 1 you generally face only the (weak) neutral forces near your castle. They guard mines, resources, treasure chests, etc, but they're weak. You can take them down easily with your starting creatures + those from other heroes you hire. Also, you can't live only on Sprites. Once you find yourself against, say, Archers you'll want your Air Elementals, Water Elementals, etc. You can't safely use only Sprites in your army, so you don't really gain that much of a speed advantage (if you gain any).

The thing is different for Sprites. In the beginning they have a nearly unlimited killing potential and they are a power on their own. They will have first strike against every other level one except Master Gremlins and they will obliterate every other weekly production of level one units with ease, having 2 strikes for example against Centaur Caps which will kill 2 thirds of them.

You've mentioned factors that dictate the key creatures of every race. Marksmen have nearly unlimited killing potential and they are a power on their own. The same applies to Efreet Sultans, Thunderbirds, Grand Elves - the four units I tend to rush early and obliterate the map with. You argue that Sprites are the key creatures for Conflux (which they aren't, that would go to Storm Elementals) but not that they're the best creatures for the level.

I mean, so what if Sprites annihilate every other weekly production of level one units with ease? You're never going to face an army composed of only level one units in a game, and such a 1v1 fight means nothing. It's when push comes to shove that Sprites show just how inept they can be. They can't absorb retaliation - it's an important point, and a very useful ability with level 1 creatures.

[Meandor]

They can't absorb retaliation - it's an important point, and a very useful ability with level 1 creatures.

Like first tier creatures are going to absorb that many retaliations. Another thing- ok they can`t absorb retaliations but they can quickly block enemy shooters, can others tier 1 creatures do that? No? If you don`t have full army then you spilt their stacks and they`ll able to block more than one shooters stack or block one of them multiple times.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm starting to get a bit angry.
Marksmen are not a power on their own. They need body guards. Without body guards they simple die because once someone is near them their damage is quartered.
Sprites are. They don't. If you can't play them that way or need Storm Elementals - don't blame the Sprites, blame yourself.
You might just want to play impossible than you would see that you don't need Storm Elementals, or T-Birds (rather than Rocs) or Efreet Sultans (instead of Efreets or simple Cerberi, depending on what you get done).

For me this is finished. Here is the review again. Centaur Captains are not played with. There comes the point when you have them and then they are there, but they never really do more than Centaurs - they support. The same is true for Halberdiers. Master Gremlins do more, but need body guards. Skeletons don't do the fighting initially as well - too slow, losses, they are hoarded to become a force to dominate later on. The rest doesn't really count.
That's the choice. There are points to be made for all of them. Centaur Caps have the best stats for the single creature. Halberdiers are not much behind and more durable. Skeletons will be the best force after some time, say 2 months (will have the best stack stats after some time). Sprites will allow the most aggressive play and have the best weekly production force. Gremlins are invaluable for Tower (even though Trogs are important for initial Dungeon as well).

For me this leaves Sprites as the pick of choice. Others may prefer others.

[Banedon]

Like first tier creatures are going to absorb that many retaliations. Another thing- ok they can`t absorb retaliations but they can quickly block enemy shooters, can others tier 1 creatures do that? No? If you don`t have full army then you spilt their stacks and they`ll able to block more than one shooters stack or block one of them multiple times.

What context is this scenario in? Is it the final battle against another human player, or the neutral farming phase?

@JollyJoker - Sprites are not a power on their own. They need bodyguards. Without bodyguards they simply die because once you run into a Ranged creature they die so fast it's not funny. If you're claiming that Sprites are awesome against slow walkers, so too are Marksmen, who'll extract terrible tolls - terrible enough that the slow walkers are generally annihilated before they can reach the Marksmen.

If it came to a choice of having 36 Marksmen against 100 Sprites I'll pick the Marksmen anyday. Worst come to worst, just split some 1-Marksmen stacks and use them to bodyguard the main Marksmen stack.

You might just want to play impossible than you would see that you don't need Storm Elementals, or T-Birds (rather than Rocs) or Efreet Sultans (instead of Efreets or simple Cerberi, depending on what you get done).

Of course you need them. You just can't get them, so you make do without them. I don't see your point. On Impossible difficulty they allow the most aggressive play because all the other (far more) aggressive options are ruled out, at least for the first few turns. On any lower difficulty they hardly provide the chance for the most aggressive play. You really should see what 6 Efreet Sultans can do against the map, compared to 200 Sprites.

[Suleman]

I'm tempted to vote Gnolls, but I don't think people would agree with me.