Geography of Enroth

[Sir William S Titan]

Ah of course, how could I forget the Goblins in New Sorpigal? In my first game, the ground was littered with the corpses of many goblins because I couldn't figure out how to 'loot' the bodies and clean up the area … until my elbow accidently hit the space bar.

Hahaha, precisely the same thing happened to me in my first game! I remember it was not only goblins, because I hit and killed a peasant by accident, and when all the others came to attack me, I (stupid as I was) killed them all, right there in the middle of the town, haha! So it was a real massacre, bodies everywhere. I thought it was supposed to be that way!

And I remember the accidental killing of peasants, too. I was trying to figure out how to get the food off the trees, and down goes a peasant. The others come at me, and all fall. For a while, after, I was cautious when trying to get the food off those trees.

[Corlagon]

3. Anyone knows where land from CoMM (Ardon) can be located?

Thought I'd throw in some input here...

Ardon seems to be a seperate world from Colony, and isn't on the Heroes world as far as I can tell. Though it is in the same universe - take the 'Kreegan Gate' and the 'Star of Erathia' in the Playstation version for instance...

[Avonu]

Thanks for clarification - but H1-3/MM6-8 planet isn't Colony. Well, in fact all worlds of H1-4 and MM1-9 were Ancients' colonies (or "colonization spaceships" like VARN, CRON or XEEN) but that wasn't they name.
It's seem that name of H1-3/MM6-8 planet was simple called Enroth (read "debate" about this name started from this post).

[Corlagon]

No problem, and yeah, okay. I like to call it Colony myself because I just can't believe the notion of a kingdom, a continent and the world itself being called under the same name. It's like us saying "We live on the world of Europe!" The basic explanation, as I see it, is that the Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic teams were obviously a little confused when making continuity between both franchises. I mean look at Antagarich in Might and Magic VII - Krewlod doesn't seem to exist.

I myself call it Colony because it is the one true 'colonized' planet in the universe of Might and Magic. VARN, XEEN etc. were all just Nacelles, Terra was an artificial world... Enroth/Colony was the only actual planet to be colonized, as far as we know. Of course there is Ardon (which is full of the Ancients' technology) but we don't even know whether that world is round or flat.

Basically, I like to accept fan-made explanations/names/whatever when the developer doesn't provide any.

[Avonu]

No problem, and yeah, okay. I like to call it Colony myself because I just can't believe the notion of a kingdom, a continent and the world itself being called under the same name. It's like us saying "We live on the world of Europe!" The basic explanation, as I see it, is that the Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic teams were obviously a little confused when making continuity between both franchises. I mean look at Antagarich in Might and Magic VII - Krewlod doesn't seem to exist.

Well, "colonists" landed on Enroth (continent) - Tomb of VARN and with that place they spread to colonize rest of this planet. So maybe they named first continent where they lived like planet's name?
And about Krewlod in MM7 - adventures didn't have to go there but if they went there that dosn't mean that Krewlod don't exist in MM7. Besides - Krewlod was prepearing for Festival of Live - so "not tourism allowed".

Terra was an artificial world...

As far as I know it was real world (ocean planet) not artifical work of Ancients. True, VARNs and CRON landed on this planet but something went wrong when they go through atmosphere (most of VARNs sunk in the ocean - rest of them created isles of Terra).

[Corlagon]

...that dosn't mean that Krewlod don't exist in MM7.

Krewlod can't be accessed, it doesn't appear on the map, there's no reference to it in the game by either people or artifact descriptions and nothing and nobody seems to have even heard of it in Might and Magic VII... which is strange since it's an even older nation than Erathia (judging by Tarnum's reign).

Well, "colonists" landed on Enroth (continent) - Tomb of VARN and with that place they spread to colonize rest of this planet.

The Ancients definitely colonized the planet, where do you think the Heavenly Forge and the Gate came from. The fact that they had influence over the planet is the whole concept behind the Silence. Other Ancient technologies like the Tomb of Varn could have crash-landed on the surface in a similar fashion as the Resurrectra / Kastore party did but I seriously doubt it. Besides there is Melian, the Guardian of Enroth, who was obviously a product of the Ancients.

As far as I know it was real world (ocean planet) not artifical work of Ancients. True, VARNs and CRON landed on this planet but something went wrong when they go through atmosphere (most of VARNs sunk in the ocean - rest of them created isles of Terra).

I have read somewhere that Terra was formed when Sheltem crashed a number of Nacelles together to form a planet. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty convinced that it's not an organic world in any case. We don't really know the set of rules for creating planets anyway so it's all more or less trivial.

If Nacelles are involved in the planet becoming inhabitable, I regard that as artificial. Otherwise (according to Bastian Loudrin or whatever his name is in Might and Magic VIII) the Elementals use a means of converging the four elements to create and renew worlds.

[Avonu]

The Ancients definitely colonized the planet, where do you think the Heavenly Forge and the Gate came from. The fact that they had influence over the planet is the whole concept behind the Silence. Other Ancient technologies like the Tomb of Varn could have crash-landed on the surface in a similar fashion as the Resurrectra / Kastore party did but I seriously doubt it. Besides there is Melian, the Guardian of Enroth, who was obviously a product of the Ancients.

The legends say that the great ship used in the Crossing lies buried under a giant stone tomb in the middle of Dragonsand. There must have been a lake or ocean long ago where the desert is now, for the ship to end up in the middle of the desert!

Ancient legends say that all the greatest artifacts from before the Silence came with the ship our distant ancestors used to get here from their homeland. They say the voyage was so long that three generations of people were born, lived, and died while aboard the ship! How's that for a whopper of a tale?!

So - IMO Heavenly Forges, Gate and all these "light like a feather" artifacts (see description of Governor Armor) came with VARN. Also colonists were more advanced than today people of Enroth (engeenier note in Control Center) but with the Silence thay deevoled into "barbarian state" (or whatever Corak had name them).
And about Melian - he(?) was Guardian of the ship buried under Dragonsand but was replaced from VARN to Control Center under Free Haven to prevent being destroy with ship (if somehow the Kreegan destroy ship Melian could survive and vice versa) - it was descripted in Tomb of VARN (to huge tables with hieroglyphs near entrance).

I have read somewhere that Terra was formed when Sheltem crashed a number of Nacelles together to form a planet. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty convinced that it's not an organic world in any case. We don't really know the set of rules for creating planets anyway so it's all more or less trivial.

The statue of Water Mane, fabled ruler of the Great Sea, stands in the center of the Maze from Hell.
Water Mane was the ruler of the Great Sea in a time when there was no land to break up its depths. The civilization of Terra lived beneath the waves in a coral city, until one day there was a tremendous storm that seemed to last forever and Water Mane’s kingdom was lost. When the storm finally subsided the Isles of Terra were left floating in the wounded sea.

Otherwise (according to Bastian Loudrin or whatever his name is in Might and Magic VIII) the Elementals use a means of converging the four elements to create and renew worlds.

Remember that was this elf said was legend - 10000 years ago there wasn't intelligent life on this planet (according to hieroglyphs from Tomb of VARN planet was "free from ancestors or the Enemy"). And Ancients somehow can force Elementals to do what they (Ancients) want - Unification of XEEN, charging Control Center beneath Free Haven (look at corridors coulors), destroying planets infected by the Kreegan. But it's seem (to me) that Ancients can't creating planets (they needed "help" of Sleepers from Elemental Planes to unified XEEN) or "true" life (like humans, elves, dwarfs)- they can only seed life in universe.

Check also this topic for futher information.

[Corlagon]

MM6 Legend of Crossing wrote:
Ancient legends say that all the greatest artifacts from before the Silence came with the ship our distant ancestors used to get here from their homeland. They say the voyage was so long that three generations of people were born, lived, and died while aboard the ship! How's that for a whopper of a tale?!

I did not know about that Tomb of Varn story so you are right on that. Anyway this proves my point - the planet was colonized by the Ancients, and wasn't created by them. That's why I like to call it 'Colony' and not just Enroth.

Remember that was this elf said was legend - 10000 years ago there wasn't intelligent life on this planet (according to hieroglyphs from Tomb of VARN planet was "free from ancestors or the Enemy"). And Ancients somehow can force Elementals to do what they (Ancients) want - Unification of XEEN, charging Control Center beneath Free Haven (look at corridors coulors), destroying planets infected by the Kreegan. But it's seem (to me) that Ancients can't creating planets (they needed "help" of Sleepers from Elemental Planes to unified XEEN) or "true" life (like humans, elves, dwarfs)- they can only seed life in universe.

Yes it was a legend, but in the Might and Magic universe, legends count for a lot. In a timeline I constructed, I placed Colony's creation at 9165 Before the Silence based on a quote from HC: Masters of the Elements. In this game it is explained that the Elemental Lords are responsible for creating the world, which also ties in with Bastian's statement in Day of the Destroyer.

For the most part it seems that the Ancients use Escaton to force the Elementals into doing what they want, though the manual of Might and Magic II (I think) explains in detail the legendary battles between Gralkor and the other three Elemental Lords which led to the formation of CRON. Let's think about the flow of time in the Elemental Planes. Tarnum's short journey took over 30 years real-time. Escaton's quest to capture all four Elemental Lords and imprison them securely, plus building a secure fortress in the Plane Between Planes, would have taken even longer. Plus nobody can say how long Escaton had the Elemental Lords imprisoned. As he was in one of the Planes, it may have been for many centuries (probably since the Ancients started destroying Kreegan-infested worlds) or for far shorter, who can say?

The Ancients seemingly cannot create true life, but they are more than capable of creating worlds to colonize. That's why they were called 'The Worldcrafters' in Geary Gravel's unreleased third Might and Magic book.

[Kareeah Indaga]

I myself call it Colony because it is the one true 'colonized' planet in the universe of Might and Magic. VARN, XEEN etc. were all just Nacelles, Terra was an artificial world... Enroth/Colony was the only actual planet to be colonized, as far as we know.

Hold on…

If Nacelles are involved in the planet becoming inhabitable, I regard that as artificial. Otherwise (according to Bastian Loudrin or whatever his name is in Might and Magic VIII) the Elementals use a means of converging the four elements to create and renew worlds.

If that’s your definition of “artificial”, then Enroth is artificial too, because of the VARN in Dragonsand. I’m not sure I’m understanding you; please clarify?

But anyway, even if you don’t count Terra as a ‘real’ planet, Enroth still wasn’t the only planet colonized by the Ancients; Escaton mentioned there being ‘a myriad’ of worlds, and ‘more worlds than there are apples in a bushel’, and more specifically there was Axeoth…

Escaton's quest to capture all four Elemental Lords and imprison them securely, plus building a secure fortress in the Plane Between Planes, would have taken even longer.

Except there was only about a year(ish) between the Demon Wars, in which the Elemental Lords made contact with Queen Catherine and thus the Confluxes allied with her, and Day of the Destroyer, in which they were all imprisoned.

I did the math for how long Remus and crew were floating around the Plane of Earth in MotE, and assuming all the elemental planes run at the same time speed, and that speed is constant on all the Elemental planes (since I haven’t yet tried to figure out how long they all took on the planes), then 1 year on the Plane of Earth is 12.5 years in the “real” world.

It couldn’t have taken Escaton long at all—quite the contrary, it would have to have been a month or two at most in relation to the planes, thus translating to the amount of time between AB and MM8 on Enroth.

[Corlagon]

If that’s your definition of “artificial”, then Enroth is artificial too, because of the VARN in Dragonsand. I’m not sure I’m understanding you; please clarify?

Sure. The Tomb of VARN was a small-scale spaceship as far as I can see, not a world-like Nacelle like the real VARN, CRON or others. Colony was habitable without the Tomb of VARN, it was a natural world created by the Elementals. VARN, XEEN and the others were created by the Ancients. Terra was a natural world, but as it was apparently a totally oceanic planet beforehand, it wasn't properly habitable without the Nacelle Isles.

But anyway, even if you don’t count Terra as a ‘real’ planet, Enroth still wasn’t the only planet colonized by the Ancients; Escaton mentioned there being ‘a myriad’ of worlds, and ‘more worlds than there are apples in a bushel’, and more specifically there was Axeoth…

Quoting myself: Enroth/Colony was the only actual planet to be colonized, as far as we know.

Many others were almost certainly colonized, but we don't know anything about them, particularly their names and locations. Axeoth appears to be a natural world, but wasn't colonized by the Ancients as far as we know.

Except there was only about a year(ish) between the Demon Wars, in which the Elemental Lords made contact with Queen Catherine and thus the Confluxes allied with her, and Day of the Destroyer, in which they were all imprisoned.

I did the math for how long Remus and crew were floating around the Plane of Earth in MotE, and assuming all the elemental planes run at the same time speed, and that speed is constant on all the Elemental planes (since I haven’t yet tried to figure out how long they all took on the planes), then 1 year on the Plane of Earth is 12.5 years in the “real” world.

It couldn’t have taken Escaton long at all—quite the contrary, it would have to have been a month or two at most in relation to the planes, thus translating to the amount of time between AB and MM8 on Enroth.

Looking at things closely, it could well have taken Escaton a long time. Note that there is no mention of the Elemental Lords in Armageddon's Blade as far as I can remember.

"Heroes from the Confluxes tell us the elemental gods have sent them to us, so together, we might destroy Lucifer Kreegan and his quest to set the world on fire. Catherine trusts these new allies. I am not as giving. However, we do not have a choice as support for the war wanes and our forces dwindle. If these elemental heroes are to be our allies, they will prove themselves in this forthcoming battle... under my command."

The elemental gods, not Lords. A small detail perhaps, but still concrete. There is no obvious alliance between the Elemental Lords and Queen Catherine until Day of the Destroyer, when they cooperate in Escaton's destruction.

Then there is another very complex theory of mine. Escaton was sent to destroy Colony long before the Kreegans were vanquished. Let's make the wild assumption that the Demons of the Fiery Moon were definitely Kreegans. By my reckoning, they made their way to Colony under Vorr's command by roughly 878 A.S. (This is after the events of MotE.) The Ancients order Escaton to dispose of them at this time. Escaton travels to the Planes and fights the Elemental Lords, capturing each in turn. Disregarding Might and Magic VIII, this means that Escaton takes 24 years in relative time (roughly 300 years) to capture the four Lords and secure them in the Plane Between Planes before summoning his Crystal Conflux in Ravenshore. This is a far more reasonable amount of time for one lone soldier (no matter how powerful) to defeat entire legions of elementals and capture their leaders.

Even though the Kreegans of the Fiery Moon are vanquished by Tarnum, they return in the Night of Shooting Stars. But they are banished again. So, either way, Escaton's statements still seem to stand.

Well, that's my view of things anyway.

[Kareeah Indaga]

All right, I think I see your distinction now.

VARN, XEEN and the others were created by the Ancients.

…Not necessarily. History of CRON.

Many others were almost certainly colonized, but we don't know anything about them, particularly their names and locations. Axeoth appears to be a natural world, but wasn't colonized by the Ancients as far as we know.

But we do know they exist however. The colonization of Enroth therefore wasn’t a one time thing. Also, see the opening cinema of MMIX, and also the Inventa Storca (in Thronheim), in the library.

Looking at things closely, it could well have taken Escaton a long time. Note that there is no mention of the Elemental Lords in Armageddon's Blade as far as I can remember.

Ah-hem:

"My master, I come to pass on a message sent by our spies in The Contested Lands. They tell of a meeting between the Elemental Lords of the Conflux and Queen Catherine. They also say an agreement has been reached between the two armies. They are now allies!" the demon manages to croak out just before you crush his windpipe.

Edit:

Another one I missed:

"I represent the Elemental Lords of the Great Conflux. I come before you to bring a warning. The use of Armageddon's Blade will soon tear this world asunder. It must be contained else it consumes us all. Do not dally with this Xeron. He is cunning and treacherous. Be wary of his power, be warned of his might."

[Corlagon]

…Not necessarily. History of CRON.

Well according to the name (Central Research Observational Nacelle), CRON was a spaceship world just like the others. It was a flat world, so I'm assuming it's either Ancient-created, or a shoddy piece of work on the Elementals' part. If it's a Nacelle, the Ancients have something to do with it.

But we do know they exist however. The colonization of Enroth therefore wasn’t a one time thing. Also, see the opening cinema of MMIX, and also the Inventa Storca (in Thronheim), in the library.

Didn't say it was a one-time thing. We know that other such planets exist, but the fact appears to be that Enroth (and quite possibly Axeoth) are the only ones we actually know anything about. If Axeoth was indeed colonized by the Ancients, then at least we're clear on the fact that it has a definite name. The other planet doesn't. Anyway I call the old planet Colony, others call it the world of Enroth. Let's leave it at that.

Ah-hem:

"My master, I come to pass on a message sent by our spies in The Contested Lands. They tell of a meeting between the Elemental Lords of the Conflux and Queen Catherine. They also say an agreement has been reached between the two armies. They are now allies!" the demon manages to croak out just before you crush his windpipe.

Edit:

Another one I missed:

"I represent the Elemental Lords of the Great Conflux. I come before you to bring a warning. The use of Armageddon's Blade will soon tear this world asunder. It must be contained else it consumes us all. Do not dally with this Xeron. He is cunning and treacherous. Be wary of his power, be warned of his might."

Ah, okay then, you've got me. Almost. I did say "as far as I can remember", and I didn't bother to make sure. In this case, we can assume that the elemental gods are the Elemental Lords. Although both quotes are in a context which doesn't necessarily mean that we're talking about THE four Elemental Lords. It could be a reference to the heroes of the Conflux in general. Judging from "Shadows of the Forest", "Seeking Armageddon" and "To Kill A Hero", Ciele, Erdamon, Tamar and Fiur seem to represent their respective elements at this time.

"I am Ciele the Waverider. I represent the Elemental Plane of Water..."

"You are the one known as Gelu, are you not? Very well, I am Erdamon the Earthshaper. I have come from the Elemental Plane of Earth and have been sent to protect this world from those who would see it harm..."

"I come to speak to the half-human warrior known as Gelu, he with eyes of obsidian darkness, skin of alabaster white, and hair the color of flame. I am called Fiur the Flamewalker. I am he, born of fire, come here to protect this world from those who would harm it."

"Greetings Catherine Ironfist of Enroth. I am called Tamar the Wanderer. I am a walker of the planes, a seeker of knowledge, a protector of lives worth saving. I am also the Elemental Lord of Air."

The four above may have been selected as the stand-in Elemental Lords, as the others were most likely imprisoned at the time.

If the Elemental Lords did send the Conflux armies, why didn't they come in person? I would assume one of these three scenarios:

1. Escaton's attack on the four Elemental Planes required the Elementals to flee into the corporeal world in order to escape his assault. There, they discovered the Kreegans and offered their aid against them.

2. The Elemental Lords explicitly ordered their armies to aid in the battle against the Kreegans. They may have done this before Escaton captured them, or probably managed to get some sort of a message to their underlings while imprisoned, in a similar way to the Ancestors when they contacted Tarnum from the Fiery Moon.

3. A total coincidence. The Elemental Lords were still free, and for some unknown reason decided not to help in the Kreegans' destruction. The Elementals entered the corporeal world at the very same time as Queen Catherine's initial attack on Eeofol, and offered to join her forces.

Judging from what we see in the games, I would bet on number 2.

[Avonu]

Yes it was a legend, but in the Might and Magic universe, legends count for a lot. In a timeline I constructed, I placed Colony's creation at 9165 Before the Silence based on a quote from HC: Masters of the Elements. In this game it is explained that the Elemental Lords are responsible for creating the world, which also ties in with Bastian's statement in Day of the Destroyer.

So, you are also know as Cepheus?
Well, in fact when someone is telling about being 1000 years old or about 10000 years peace treaty I don't think that he said about exacly 1000 or 10000 years - Tarnum can be 981 or 1023 years old but saying 1000 years sounds much better. Same with 10000 years of peace.

For the most part it seems that the Ancients use Escaton to force the Elementals into doing what they want, though the manual of Might and Magic II (I think) explains in detail the legendary battles between Gralkor and the other three Elemental Lords which led to the formation of CRON. Let's think about the flow of time in the Elemental Planes. Tarnum's short journey took over 30 years real-time. Escaton's quest to capture all four Elemental Lords and imprison them securely, plus building a secure fortress in the Plane Between Planes, would have taken even longer. Plus nobody can say how long Escaton had the Elemental Lords imprisoned. As he was in one of the Planes, it may have been for many centuries (probably since the Ancients started destroying Kreegan-infested worlds) or for far shorter, who can say?

I think that you are wrong. Escaton said that when he arrived to world of Enroth, the Kreegan still live on this planet, but when he conjure his crystal Kreegan were defeated (or something like that). And demons from Fiery Moon can be or not the Kreegan (I think that they aren't but I haven't any proof) but IIRC one is sure - these demons never were on Enroth. So Escaton arrived at least at 1162 AS (I think that much later - after AB campaign - he have to spend some to get to know that the Kreegan invided Enroth and IIRC there were some notes about that Elemental Lords send Elementals to help in fight with Kreegan).

The Ancients seemingly cannot create true life, but they are more than capable of creating worlds to colonize. That's why they were called 'The Worldcrafters' in Geary Gravel's unreleased third Might and Magic book.

Not exacly - they can create worldcraft (like CRON or VARN) but they needs also some help of Elementals:

"The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds."

The Grand Experiment of the Ancients: to use the technology of Elemental Manipulation to create a completebly viable ecological and social microcosm. This microcosm was then to be transported to a distant bioshpere (Terra) to supplant its indigenous ecosystem. The need was acknowledged for a central controlling unit capable of compensating for unexpected anomalies.

Well, I don't exacly know what this "Elemental Manipulation" meens but I supose that refers to Elementals and their Lords.

The four above may have been selected as the stand-in Elemental Lords, as the others were most likely imprisoned at the time.

If the Elemental Lords did send the Conflux armies, why didn't they come in person? I would assume one of these three scenarios:

1. Escaton's attack on the four Elemental Planes required the Elementals to flee into the corporeal world in order to escape his assault. There, they discovered the Kreegans and offered their aid against them.

I don't think so - Escaton "invited" EL to his plane - so they not escaped from him but were inprisoned. Well, that's my opinion

2. The Elemental Lords explicitly ordered their armies to aid in the battle against the Kreegans. They may have done this before Escaton captured them, or probably managed to get some sort of a message to their underlings while imprisoned, in a similar way to the Ancestors when they contacted Tarnum from the Fiery Moon.

Or someone ordered Elementals to fight with Kreegan - someone more powerful than EL. And because Escaton can defeat any Lord in one-to-one batlle (he must somehow captured them) and his Masters were more powerful than he...

3. A total coincidence. The Elemental Lords were still free, and for some unknown reason decided not to help in the Kreegans' destruction. The Elementals entered the corporeal world at the very same time as Queen Catherine's initial attack on Eeofol, and offered to join her forces.

They were hostile (MM2-3) to humanoids so I don't think that they helped without good reason.

I did the math for how long Remus and crew were floating around the Plane of Earth in MotE, and assuming all the elemental planes run at the same time speed, and that speed is constant on all the Elemental planes (since I haven’t yet tried to figure out how long they all took on the planes), then 1 year on the Plane of Earth is 12.5 years in the “real” world.

I think that you assuming too much. Earth Elementals are slow creatures - time in they plane also is slowed. But on the other hand Fire and Air Elementals are fast creatures...
I don't think that time passing in Earth Plane is that same like in Air or Fire Plane. In MM8 time on all planes passed that same (well - game mechanics )

[Corlagon]

So, you are also know as Cepheus?

Correct

Well, in fact when someone is telling about being 1000 years old or about 10000 years peace treaty I don't think that he said about exacly 1000 or 10000 years - Tarnum can be 981 or 1023 years old but saying 1000 years sounds much better. Same with 10000 years of peace.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I just tried to be as accurate as possible. The point is that Bastian's statement is most likely true - the elementals created the world. Escaton also confirms this in DotD.

I think that you are wrong. Escaton said that when he arrived to world of Enroth, the Kreegan still live on this planet, but when he conjure his crystal Kreegan were defeated (or something like that).

Nothing wrong there. Escaton was called to destroy the world when the Kreegans set foot on it. He didn't necessarily get to know the locals beforehand. By my assumption, he travelled to the Elemental Planes and captured the Elemental Lords during the Fiery Moon era, when (what I believe were) Kreegans entered the world, then went to Colony and summoned his Crystal in 1171 A.S.

Your statement is a little flawed - the Kreegans were gone by the time Escaton arrived on the world itself. As per his speech in M&M8: "I was called while Kreegan still lived on your world. It matters not that they were dust by the time I arrived."

And demons from Fiery Moon can be or not the Kreegan (I think that they aren't but I haven't any proof)

I think the Fiery Moon demons are the Kreegans, and weren't referred to as such simply because the Heroes Chronicles author was a different guy to the ones who worked on Heroes and M&M. I mean come on, how many space-travelling demon-lookalike hostile world-destroying aliens can there be in one galaxy. They probably aren't called Kreegans by Tarnum and his gang because they have never actually heard that word. Remember Escaton's speech: "In the time since the Silence, your world has lost knowledge of the Kreegan's origin. That they resemble the devils of myth has been enough for you, and indeed, "devils" is what most call them. The truth is they came from the beyond. Before they attacked us, my masters had no knowledge of them."

The Devils of myth = the creatures from Conquest of the Underworld. As Tarnum had already seen and fought very similar-looking creatures, he must have assumed that the Kreegans were the same race.

but IIRC one is sure - these demons never were on Enroth.

Incorrect. The Fiery Moon Demons did reach Colony / Enroth, they are all over the place in "The Endless Sands" and "The Nameless Land", the first two scenarios of the Fiery Moon. Both scenarios take place in Colony.

So Escaton arrived at least at 1162 AS (I think that much later - after AB campaign - he have to spend some to get to know that the Kreegan invided Enroth and IIRC there were some notes about that Elemental Lords send Elementals to help in fight with Kreegan).

Escaton did mention the Demon Wars, but he didn't know that the original Kreegans were vanquished by Tarnum. He wasn't to know that they returned centuries later and continued their infestation.

This would explain why Escaton was so surprised that the Kreegans had been eliminated. After being upon Colony for (what he thought was) hundreds of years, the Kreegans would have been insanely powerful (i.e. Fiery Moon). He probably didn't know that the Kreegans hadn't been around long enough to establish any control over the world.

Not exacly - they can create worldcraft (like CRON or VARN) but they needs also some help of Elementals:
MM3 Shikbath Zera data wrote:
"The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds."

So basically, they are still more than capable of creating worlds to colonize.

MM3 Filename: Grand Experiment wrote:
The Grand Experiment of the Ancients: to use the technology of Elemental Manipulation to create a completebly viable ecological and social microcosm. This microcosm was then to be transported to a distant bioshpere (Terra) to supplant its indigenous ecosystem. The need was acknowledged for a central controlling unit capable of compensating for unexpected anomalies.

Well, I don't exacly know what this "Elemental Manipulation" meens but I supose that refers to Elementals and their Lords.

Yes, I would guess that this is evidence enough that the Ancients were behind the creation of the Nacelles. I think it also proves that Terra was relatively uninhabited before the Ancients became involved and started throwing Nacelles at it to allow it to support human life.

I don't think so - Escaton "invited" EL to his plane - so they not escaped from him but were inprisoned. Well, that's my opinion

Your opinion is probably correct, but I'd like to know where it is said that Escaton invited the Elemental Lords into his Plane. And I said the Elementals escaped him, but not the Elemental Lords, they were captured one way or another.

Or someone ordered Elementals to fight with Kreegan - someone more powerful than EL. And because Escaton can defeat any Lord in one-to-one batlle (he must somehow captured them) and his Masters were more powerful than he...

Perhaps, but the Ancients don't appear to have influence over the Elemental Planes, only the Elementals themselves. The main four Conflux heroes all state that they represent their respective Planes. I guess it could have been The First, the three Magic Elementals from the Plane of Magic, though I doubt that even they could force the elementals into such a drastic move - they couldn't control the original Elemental Lords, so why should they be able to control their underlings? It could have been an outside influence but I can't think of any other beings powerful enough to control all the Elemental Planes at once.

They were hostile (MM2-3) to humanoids so I don't think that they helped without good reason.

I know, you are right, which is why I am going with explanation 2. Or maybe the four 'new' Elemental Lords (Tamar, Fiur and co) were a lot more benign than their destructive predecessors.

I think that you assuming too much. Earth Elementals are slow creatures - time in they plane also is slowed. But on the other hand Fire and Air Elementals are fast creatures...
I don't think that time passing in Earth Plane is that same like in Air or Fire Plane. In MM8 time on all planes passed that same (well - game mechanics )

I pointed out that we should disregard Might and Magic VIII's rendition of the Elemental Planes, it was obviously vastly different to those shown in HC: MotE. I think the assumptions are based on the idea that the Elemental Planes are in an entirely different dimension of existence than the corporeal plane, and thus are interlinked in their different laws of time and space. If you are wondering why time on the Plane of Earth is much faster than normal rather than slower, consult MotE's developers...

Anyway, this is becoming a nice discussion and I'd like to continue nitpicking these details with you guys.

[Avonu]

The point is that Bastian's statement is most likely true - the elementals created the world. Escaton also confirms this in DotD.

In fact Elementals first destroy Earth (look at the continents) and then recreated debris into Enroth.
And I don't remember he said about Elementals - he said about "elements that created this world" (or someone wrong translated that text in my version of game.)

Nothing wrong there. Escaton was called to destroy the world when the Kreegans set foot on it. He didn't necessarily get to know the locals beforehand. By my assumption, he travelled to the Elemental Planes and captured the Elemental Lords during the Fiery Moon era, when (what I believe were) Kreegans entered the world, then went to Colony and summoned his Crystal in 1171 A.S.

In fact (according to MM8 manual) crystal was summon after 26 November 1172 (list for uncle Alystor).
And IIRC Escaton said about that he came to this world when the Kreegan were serious threat to Enroth but then they were defeated by Ironfists (AB).
In HC: Fiery Moon Demons were not threat to this planet - they where threat to Ancestors and Tarnum.
Elemental lords in MM2, HC: Masterof Elements and in MM8 were named that same - Acwalander, Gralknor, Shalwend, Pyrannaste. So I think that in AB they are EL. And they don't seem to be prisoners in AB.

Your statement is a little flawed - the Kreegans were gone by the time Escaton arrived on the world itself. As per his speech in M&M8: "I was called while Kreegan still lived on your world. It matters not that they were dust by the time I arrived."

Read all Escaton's text - he mention something else about Cataclysm, his Masters and the Kreegan.

I think the Fiery Moon demons are the Kreegans, and weren't referred to as such simply because the Heroes Chronicles author was a different guy to the ones who worked on Heroes and M&M. I mean come on, how many space-travelling demon-lookalike hostile world-destroying aliens can there be in one galaxy.

I don't remeber that Fiery Moon's demons were space-travelling aliens. Read also description of Inferno city in H3 manual - my bad translation of text into English: "Inferno cities lies on ruined sites where Underworld came to surface"
Inferno only Kreegan's city - gogs, efreets, probably also imps, demons, cerberi and pit lords were "allies" of Kreegan - Devils.

The Fiery Moon Demons did reach Colony / Enroth, they are all over the place in "The Endless Sands" and "The Nameless Land", the first two scenarios of the Fiery Moon. Both scenarios take place in Colony.

Demons (in means Kreegan/Devils) or only gogs, imps and demons (unit)?
And why Melian didn't do something if they were the Kreegan? He funcioned propetly at that time and his task was also protect this planet from the Enemy.

This would explain why Escaton was so surprised that the Kreegans had been eliminated. After being upon Colony for (what he thought was) hundreds of years, the Kreegans would have been insanely powerful (i.e. Fiery Moon). He probably didn't know that the Kreegans hadn't been around long enough to establish any control over the world.

No, he was suprised that Ironfists defeated "devils".

I think it also proves that Terra was relatively uninhabited before the Ancients became involved and started throwing Nacelles at it to allow it to support human life.

No - Terra was inhibited before "landing" of VARNs - info from Maze from Hell. Also it was Sheltem who interupted (somehow) landing of VARNs - some of them sunk (and destroyed earlier Terra Civilization). I posted some screenshots about it in MM History Question topic.

Your opinion is probably correct, but I'd like to know where it is said that Escaton invited the Elemental Lords into his Plane.

"Invited" not invited - he said that EL are his "guests" (in fact - prisoners) - so I mean that really he imprisoned then.

Perhaps, but the Ancients don't appear to have influence over the Elemental Planes, only the Elementals themselves.

In MM3 manual is mentioned that after defeated by humanoids Elementals flee to "four corners of the Void" (but Elementals came form "mists of the Void" not it "four corners"). It is mentioned also that Ancients didn't want to medlle into Elementals War. They do that when Elemetals wanted to destroy all (intellignet) live. They teached humanoids how to fight with Elemetals but only that (they didn't teached how to eliminate Elementals).
I don't know what think about Ancients-Elementals-Kreegan/Creators connection. On one hand Elementals fight with humans, on the other hand, they helped defeat the Kreegan. On the third hand they were somehow responsible for destroying and (re)creating planets.

I pointed out that we should disregard Might and Magic VIII's rendition of the Elemental Planes, it was obviously vastly different to those shown in HC: MotE.

In fact, you first visited El Planes in MM2, next in MM5 (WoX) - and these planes were almost identical (minus graphic) to MM8 plane (same passing of time in all Planes). Only in HC:MotE Earth Plane was descripted in another way.

[Corlagon]

In fact Elementals first destroy Earth (look at the continents) and then recreated debris into Enroth.
And I don't remember he said about Elementals - he said about "elements that created this world" (or someone wrong translated that text in my version of game.)

Elementals are the physical manifestaions of the elements. Elements don't just create worlds out of the blue. Same difference. And whatever, they created the world, and that's a fact.

In fact (according to MM8 manual) crystal was summon after 26 November 1172 (list for uncle Alystor).
And IIRC Escaton said about that he came to this world when the Kreegan were serious threat to Enroth but then they were defeated by Ironfists (AB).
In HC: Fiery Moon Demons were not threat to this planet - they where threat to Ancestors and Tarnum.
Elemental lords in MM2, HC: Masterof Elements and in MM8 were named that same - Acwalander, Gralknor, Shalwend, Pyrannaste. So I think that in AB they are EL. And they don't seem to be prisoners in AB.

But Might and Magic VIII begins on 1 January 1172. Don't tell me that Escaton summoned his Crystal after that date, because he definitely didn't, manual or no manual. And the Fiery Moon Demons were a serious threat to the planet, they were attempting to regain ground from Tarnum and destroy the World Tree. Also, they were in charge of making sure that the Ancestors remained imprisoned, and while they did this, the entire Barbarian race was trapped in Limbo. That's a very serious threat to much of the planet as far as I'm concerned.

The Elemental Lords were not actually given names in Masters of the Elements apart from "The Air Lord, The Fire Lord" etc. They looked very like the ones in DotD in the opening video, but they weren't imprisoned at that time anyway, seeing as MotE takes place hundreds of years before AB (I'm assuming that Fiery Moon takes place after MotE). And if we go by my theories, the four secondary Elemental Lords were in charge during Armageddon's Blade while the originals were imprisoned. Tamar clearly states that he is the Elemental Lord of Air, not Shalwend.

Read all Escaton's text - he mention something else about Cataclysm, his Masters and the Kreegan.

Thank you but I have read all of it and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Kreegans were on Colony when Escaton arrived to summon his Crystal.

I don't remeber that Fiery Moon's demons were space-travelling aliens.

Quoted from Tarnum: "These Demons believed in nothing but destruction. Honor meant nothing to them. Wherever they went, I imagined Skizzik's kind turning every world into a copy of this Fiery Moon."

Sounds very Kreegan-like to me...

Read also description of Inferno city in H3 manual - my bad translation of text into English: "Inferno cities lies on ruined sites where Underworld came to surface"

From the English version: "Inferno towns can be found in Erathian regions blighted by the emergence of the underworld on the surface." In "A Devilish Plan" we learn that the Kreegans dwell in volcanoes as well as large sci-fi hives. Volcanoes are emergences of the underworld on the planet's surface. That explains that.

Demons (in means Kreegan/Devils) or only gogs, imps and demons (unit)?
And why Melian didn't do something if they were the Kreegan? He funcioned propetly at that time and his task was also protect this planet from the Enemy.

Kreegan Devils appear in both scenarios, and I believe that 'Demons' and Pit Lords were also branches of the Kreegan race.

Melian was in Enroth, and the World Tree was an entire ocean away. Tarnum and his allies dealt with the Kreegans before she/he had any reasonable chance to make any appearance.

No, he was suprised that Ironfists defeated "devils".

Quoted from Escaton: "As far as I'm able to feel such, I am amazed that your world was able to eliminate its Kreegan infestation. They were quite a bit more... advanced than you. The king and queen of Enroth must be strategists of the highest order. Too bad that they were not able to finish their task sooner."

No - Terra was inhibited before "landing" of VARNs - info from Maze from Hell. Also it was Sheltem who interupted (somehow) landing of VARNs - some of them sunk (and destroyed earlier Terra Civilization). I posted some screenshots about it in MM History Question topic.

That Water Mane guy and his sea-dwelling people weren't human. The Ancients colonize their planets with humans and similar races, but not ocean dwellers. As a water planet, Terra wasn't properly habitable for mammals (i.e. almost all sentient beings) until the Nacelles were added.

"Invited" not invited - he said that EL are his "guests" (in fact - prisoners) - so I mean that really he imprisoned then.

Okay, I see what you mean now, thanks.

In MM3 manual is mentioned that after defeated by humanoids Elementals flee to "four corners of the Void" (but Elementals came form "mists of the Void" not it "four corners"). It is mentioned also that Ancients didn't want to medlle into Elementals War. They do that when Elemetals wanted to destroy all (intellignet) live. They teached humanoids how to fight with Elemetals but only that (they didn't teached how to eliminate Elementals).
I don't know what think about Ancients-Elementals-Kreegan/Creators connection. On one hand Elementals fight with humans, on the other hand, they helped defeat the Kreegan. On the third hand they were somehow responsible for destroying and (re)creating planets.

So no objections here? Okay. Like I said there were four different Elemental Lords in AB (Erdamon, Fiur, Ciele, Tamar) who may have been more friendly with their elemental powers than the imprisoned Lords. This would explain why the Elementals sided with the Humans in AB.

In fact, you first visited El Planes in MM2, next in MM5 (WoX) - and these planes were almost identical (minus graphic) to MM8 plane (same passing of time in all Planes). Only in HC:MotE Earth Plane was descripted in another way.

Like you said, that is a game mechanics thing. The M&M developers couldn't accelerate the flow of time in the Elemental Planes, or maybe they just forgot to or didn't bother. I accept the Heroes Chronicles renditions as the canonical ones because they are very closely adapted to the storyline, which is the topic of the discussion.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Hey Corlagon, nice name and avatar!

I just killed you the other day in MM6, in Power Lich form while you were doing evil magic research in your estate

[Corlagon]

Ha ha, thanks! I love how I looked in Heroes II... hope I put up a good fight!

[Kareeah Indaga]

Okay…some of this is repeated, but here goes…

The four above may have been selected as the stand-in Elemental Lords, as the others were most likely imprisoned at the time.

I got more of an impression that they were messengers, or ambassadors of a sort—because based on Catherine’s reaction to Tamar (“The warnings of this so-called Elemental Lord”) it seems she’s met the actual Elemental Lords, else why doubt him? (Roland was the paranoid one, remember.) And Ciele wasn’t even a native of the Plane of Water…

I think that you assuming too much. Earth Elementals are slow creatures - time in they plane also is slowed. But on the other hand Fire and Air Elementals are fast creatures...

Honestly? So do I. But it’s the only set of numbers I’ve got at the moment.

I don't think that time passing in Earth Plane is that same like in Air or Fire Plane. In MM8 time on all planes passed that same (well - game mechanics )

Ignoring the possibilities that it was done for simplicity or because the designers forgot/never knew in the first place (because that’s no fun to speculate about ), maybe the portals opening synchronized the time passage between the five planes so they were all about the same near the portals.

And demons from Fiery Moon can be or not the Kreegan (I think that they aren't but I haven't any proof)

I think the Fiery Moon demons are the Kreegans, and weren't referred to as such simply because the Heroes Chronicles author was a different guy to the ones who worked on Heroes and M&M. I mean come on, how many space-travelling demon-lookalike hostile world-destroying aliens can there be in one galaxy.

Second that. There are too many parallels:

--As already mentioned, they were making planets that were once more along the lines of Enroth into fiery wastelands (see also Gauldoth’s description of the world he retrieved Kalibarr from—it seemed to be the same idea, and that was confirmed to be the work of the Kreegan)
--The Sparkling Bridge sounds an AWFUL lot like a Gate to the Web of Worlds, down to needing a key to use it*, and we KNOW the Kreegan infiltrated the Gate Web^


*But in this case it’s a Ring of the Wayfarer, not a Control Cube—but there are several explanations for that, ranging from ‘the Ancients had more than one type of key’ to, ‘Heroes III didn’t have Control Cubes in it so the designers substituted something else rather than make a one-shot item’
^The only thing that doesn’t make much sense to me is Corak’s comment that ‘we never got a destination portal set up on your world before the war’. But seeing as one of the Lincoln’s crew addressed him, maybe he was referring to Terra/Varn4/Cron, not Enroth. And actually, that would explain nicely how Morglin got to Enroth, too…

I don't think so - Escaton "invited" EL to his plane - so they not escaped from him but were inprisoned. Well, that's my opinion

Your opinion is probably correct, but I'd like to know where it is said that Escaton invited the Elemental Lords into his Plane.

Here you go:

The Convocation of Cataclysm, as powerful as it is, cannot of itself destroy a world. Each of the elemental planes is ruled by a lord. These lords can fight the compulsion placed on their lesser subjects. For this reason, I have removed the lords from their realms. They are my “guests” for the time being.

Once the cataclysm has run its course, I will return them so that they might rebuild your realm and theirs.

Escaton was being tongue-in-cheek.

Anyway, this is becoming a nice discussion and I'd like to continue nitpicking these details with you guys.

Likewise.

The point is that Bastian's statement is most likely true - the elementals created the world. Escaton also confirms this in DotD.

In fact Elementals first destroy Earth

I was rather sad when I first realized that, too. Probably a cost effective alternative to drawing another view of Enroth, but…

In MM3 manual is mentioned that after defeated by humanoids Elementals flee to "four corners of the Void" (but Elementals came form "mists of the Void" not it "four corners"). It is mentioned also that Ancients didn't want to medlle into Elementals War.

IIRC wasn’t that the “Forces of the Dome” not necessarily the Ancients?

In fact (according to MM8 manual) crystal was summon after 26 November 1172 (list for uncle Alystor).

But Might and Magic VIII begins on 1 January 1172. Don't tell me that Escaton summoned his Crystal after that date, because he definitely didn't, manual or no manual.

…Blast. I left my MM8 manual at home and I can’t find the pdf version, or I’d try to see if it was possible for that letter to have been written after Escaton summoned his crystal.

And the Fiery Moon Demons were a serious threat to the planet, they were attempting to regain ground from Tarnum and destroy the World Tree. Also, they were in charge of making sure that the Ancestors remained imprisoned, and while they did this, the entire Barbarian race was trapped in Limbo.

IIRC, the threat was that the Barbs would be thrown into oblivion after they died, rather than going to Paradise; not that they had been transported there while the Ancestors were imprisoned.

Tamar clearly states that he is the Elemental Lord of Air, not Shalwend.

Already covered this above; also, his physical description (long robe, face mostly concealed) brings to mind a Psychic Elemental, not Air—the Air being later is described as wispy and cloudlike. And more importantly there was all his chattering about visions and foreseeing, which would logically fall into the realm of Mind…

In short, I think it more likely he was a rogue, and just claimed he was a lord of Air so Queen Catherine would listen and because it would be harder to claim he was an elemental lord of Earth.

[Corlagon]

I got more of an impression that they were messengers, or ambassadors of a sort—because based on Catherine’s reaction to Tamar (“The warnings of this so-called Elemental Lord”) it seems she’s met the actual Elemental Lords, else why doubt him? (Roland was the paranoid one, remember.) And Ciele wasn’t even a native of the Plane of Water…

Maybe, but I'd be wary of strange Elemental Lords too if my chief lieutenant had recently poisoned my father and had him reanimated as a Lich... Ciele and Tamar weren't elementals, I know, but who's to say that Elementals have to rule over the Planes? Humans, Elves and the like are capable of gaining total mastery over elemental forces, just look at Tarnum - he mastered all four, and even with his age-gained intelligence and wisdom, his Barbarian blood alone made him a poor candidate for such a feat. And reading some of the Elementalist biographies, it seems that the elemental Confluxes have minds of their own and specifically choose those who will serve them - it could well have called the four heroes in a similar manner to fill the vacancies left by the missing Elemental Lords. And then if she really had met the four original Elemental Lords I'm sure she would have said something about them in DotD...

Ignoring the possibilities that it was done for simplicity or because the designers forgot/never knew in the first place (because that’s no fun to speculate about ), maybe the portals opening synchronized the time passage between the five planes so they were all about the same near the portals.

A good explanation, I'm willing to accept that

Escaton was being tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks. I had literally wondered if Escaton had really phoned up Gralkor and said "party at my plane"... It's a little funny to see an 'incorruptible' robot using a combination of highly destructive magic coupled with sarcasm, wit and even empathy, just goes to show how technologically advanced the Ancients must be...

IIRC wasn’t that the “Forces of the Dome” not necessarily the Ancients?

The Forces of the Dome are wielded by the Ancients, if we accept Legends of the Ancients as canon (which I am prepared to do).

…Blast. I left my MM8 manual at home and I can’t find the pdf version, or I’d try to see if it was possible for that letter to have been written after Escaton summoned his crystal.

I'm reading it right now, and it does say 26 November 1172. Apart from the obvious fact that the game starts 11 months beforehand, it seems very possible that it was written on that date, as there's no mention of Escaton or his crystal to dispute this. However, due to the game's starting time plus the lack of any mention of the player's supposed adventures up to and around that time, it must have been a typo ala the M&M 6 manual which claims that Roland went on his quest to destroy the Kreegans 10 years before they arrived.

IIRC, the threat was that the Barbs would be thrown into oblivion after they died, rather than going to Paradise; not that they had been transported there while the Ancestors were imprisoned.

You're absolutely right, I just didn't bother to write all of the details. Either way, lack of the Ancestors still posed a serious threat to their race.

I wonder whether Grumba and Wern made it to Paradise after the Ancestors were reunited? Or were their souls lost in Oblivion forever? Their deaths are a little more tragic when you think about it like that...

Already covered this above; also, his physical description (long robe, face mostly concealed) brings to mind a Psychic Elemental, not Air—the Air being later is described as wispy and cloudlike. And more importantly there was all his chattering about visions and foreseeing, which would logically fall into the realm of Mind…

In short, I think it more likely he was a rogue, and just claimed he was a lord of Air so Queen Catherine would listen and because it would be harder to claim he was an elemental lord of Earth.

His physical description also mentions a neatly-trimmed beard... not really a Psychic Elemental feature, eh? And an azure robe rather than shimmering grey - whatever his actual race, he took on a human form. I can't see why he would want to trick Queen Catherine into triggering the world's destruction by forcing Gelu to kill Lucifer and later inherit the Blade. He was very passionate about Gelu's fate, obviously he was either really trying to prevent the Reckoning, or cause it... but why would he want to destroy Colony? He may have been someone else doing a Sandro, but who? The God of Death from Gauldoth's campaign (who seemed to have a similar agenda)? Nah, I think he was genuine and just a little flawed in his prophecies (or maybe he was trying to buy some time for Colony, in case whatever triggered the Axeoth portals wasn't activated at the time, and Catherine/Roland killing Lucifer would really have destroyed the world), because it fits well with my other theory, and he's got no obvious reason to lie to Catherine about his status as Lord of Air.