Sylvan Strategy Thread

[Corribus]

Am I the only person who thinks the Avenger ability is a little... unuseful? Also, Druid Elders seem very underpowered wrt Master Hunters.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Have you been hit by a Master Hunter volley, that has good luck and the avenger skill? It hurts a lot.

I think the major weakness of the ability is similar to the Academy's and Fortress's in that you need to have a special building for it to work.

[Corribus]

I'm not saying it's not ever useful. But, since you have to kill a creature so many times before you put it on your hit list, and because it may be difficult to anticipate what creatures your opponent will be carrying, it just seems like it take a lot more work - and luck - to develop it to the point where it may be useful enough to make a difference.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Endgame it can make a huge difference.

[Corribus]

btw 'Fate nice article!

Speaking of Sylvan - I just recently played the Sylvan campaign and I found dealing with Spectres especially troublesome. With no destructive magic, they are really hard to kill off. Druid Lightning Bolt helps, but in really high numbers it just doesn't do enough damage, particularly compared to just shooting them. The best I could come up with was to use my master hunters, because then at least you get two shots and so usually come away with at least SOME damage.. but Ihate to waste my MH turn against Spectres. Any other good ways of dealing with Spectres for Sylvan?

[Omega_Destroyer]

Hence the need for Avenger. Tag Necropolis with Vamipre Lords, Spectres, and Wraiths and your life gets a lot easier.

[Corribus]

Yeah but avenger only affects the damage you get when striking the Spectres, not your likelihood of hitting them, no? Meh, it's just that I cringe whenever I try to attack those stupid things. I always seem to miss at inopportune moments, especially when retaliating. Spectres a quick work for warlocks, but just about anyone else it's just exasperating!

[Elvin]

Master Hunters and Druid Elders stand back, shooting and casting at range, while Silver Unicorns and Ancient Treants defend them, and when the time is right, advance into the enemy position.

Actually I am of the belief that sylvan is meant to charge regardless if it needs to defend its shooters. War dancers and sprites are too annoying to leave alive(multi-attack and ranged blockers) plus the unicorn-dragon team can be too damaging with their initiative and specials. While all these charge the opponent will find it hard to focus on the hunters.

Master Gremlins and other ranged units can, and will, potshot your Hunters, causing casualties, and we don't want that. So, unless you're raving mad, no ranged units for you, at least at the beginning.

Actually your pixies/sprites and blade dancers take them down pretty easily. They'll just take a shot on them and then they'll be forced into melee. Add in deadeye shot and an imbued eldritch arrow or stone spikes and it's easy. Of course it depends on the size of the stack.

In the tight box formation I'd advice to leave all the pixie stacks back vs large 8 speed units. Otherwise they'll be able to attack them from the first round. Also upgrading pixies makes them a favourite target of ranged enemies, sometimes even more than hunters.
Btw don't you use druids in creeping?

I agree with your skills picks except the light magic perks as I already expressed. Oh and I don't pick defense anymore - while vitality is sweet I follow a more offensive route and it has served me well so far.
I should also note that in a short map destructive can be a pretty good choice, especially if you get icebolt and evercold icicle. Warmachines or not, imbue arrow and a mediocre spellpower combined with deadeye shot can be pretty damaging and a fire or ice effect can be most welcome.

Avenger is better than people give it credit for. Most units the opponent has are easy to guess if he has upgraded them or not by the week the battle will take place. Marksmen will always be picked instead of archers and hunters instead of master hunters until week 3(well, usually) for instance.
If you don't find the neutrals you can always try skirmishes vs your opponent to kill a few of its units, I don't recall if they count should you retreat.
In any case they help a lot in creeping, especially vs a horde of squires as it's common to find more than one stacks one of which footmen
And if you wish to be sure of what the opponent has you can aim for silent stalker, after all you'll get logistics. With 2 towns you may try building 2 avenger brotherhoods for +20% chance.
In a longer game sylvan tends to kill large stacks in 1 or 2 attacks, terrifying

I'll check the specific strategies later.

[winterfate]

When picking a favored enemy vs. the Dwarves, I agree with the Warlrods and Magma Dragons but disagree with the Rune Patriarchs. True they are dangerous, but most likely you will not be able to wipe out the stack before they get a firewall off. Also, it's the Shielduards that will make killing off ranged units a pain, so I think they are a better choice. That will help taking out both Rune Patriachs and Skirmishers. Additionally, having Shieldgaurds as your favored enemy would greatly help when it comes time to seige a Fortress. 2 legions of Shieldguards is far more dangerous than 60 Rune Patriarchs.

That's a fine point you make Omega. Their uber defensive capabilities are precisely the reason why I'm leery of favoring them. It could be worth a try though...especially late game with those extra Guard Post Shieldguards.

I'm not saying it's not ever useful. But, since you have to kill a creature so many times before you put it on your hit list, and because it may be difficult to anticipate what creatures your opponent will be carrying, it just seems like it take a lot more work - and luck - to develop it to the point where it may be useful enough to make a difference.

One week's Castle production to be exact. So, you would need to kill 2 Green Dragons to be able to favor Green/Emerald Dragons...for example.

It is an irritating condition, but trust me Corribus, Avenger can save your life in a tough battle.

Speaking of Sylvan - I just recently played the Sylvan campaign and I found dealing with Spectres especially troublesome. With no destructive magic, they are really hard to kill off. Druid Lightning Bolt helps, but in really high numbers it just doesn't do enough damage, particularly compared to just shooting them. The best I could come up with was to use my master hunters, because then at least you get two shots and so usually come away with at least SOME damage.. but Ihate to waste my MH turn against Spectres. Any other good ways of dealing with Spectres for Sylvan?

Unfortunately...no.
You'll just have to cross your fingers each time you attack.

Nival should've given them 50% Damage Resistance instead of Incorporeal...chance abilities can be IMBA.

Avenger is better than people give it credit for. Most units the opponent has are easy to guess if he has upgraded them or not by the week the battle will take place. Marksmen will always be picked instead of archers and hunters instead of master hunters until week 3(well, usually) for instance.
If you don't find the neutrals you can always try skirmishes vs your opponent to kill a few of its units, I don't recall if they count should you retreat.
In any case they help a lot in creeping, especially vs a horde of squires as it's common to find more than one stacks one of which footmen smile
And if you wish to be sure of what the opponent has you can aim for silent stalker, after all you'll get logistics. With 2 towns you may try building 2 avenger brotherhoods for +20% chance.
In a longer game sylvan tends to kill large stacks in 1 or 2 attacks, terrifying

I agree! Avenger can be awesome...I just think the whole upgraded OR unupgraded concept is kinda senseless. So, even though the units are nearly identical I can't favor both of them?

On a shameless tangent, Baldur's Gate 2 doesn't have you favoring specific types of Dragons. Identical concept, different implementation.

Actually your pixies/sprites and blade dancers take them down pretty easily. They'll just take a shot on them and then they'll be forced into melee. Add in deadeye shot and an imbued eldritch arrow or stone spikes and it's easy. Of course it depends on the size of the stack.

I hate it when the Magic Guild decides to give me stone spikes.

It's really underpowered, especially early for the Sylvan player.

btw 'Fate nice article!

Thank you very much! Glad you liked it.

[Hocoino]

Good article mate. Got a few differing opinions. We'll see if I'm right.

Skills: I think by recomending both Attack and WarMachines you are obligated to take Flaming Arrows. If you do this you won't be able to use archery as you recomended. A triple balista shot that ignores targets defense, and adds fire damage is buff. It can be a high teir creature killer. However even with just that, it still does not make full use of the posibilites of the balista. Imbdue Balista + Implosion with 3 shots... (btw, I'm theorycrafting here, can anybody tell me if the implosion triggers on all three shots)

Also I haven't seen anybody here mention the use of Logistics.. I don't know why... Logistics to me is an essential skill. Sure it would be nice to give my hero battle skills, but without logistics I might never be able to reach him with the advantage. I'll be run in circles. This however might be a topic best discussed in a complete article.

A nice little tactic I have found is to attach slow to your imbdue arrow, then rain of arrows and you have a mini-mass slow. If I also have flaming arrows then I can restructure my Favored enemy list omiting the level 7 creature (because I'll be using my balista constantly on it due to the ignore defense feature) the imbuded balista will also slow his teir 7 creature and now you have 4 of his 7 creatures slowed. Taking your next turn to mass haste, you'll have a huge initive advantage.

I'll be doing my list of tactical matchups later.

[winterfate]

Good article mate. Got a few differing opinions. We'll see if I'm right.

Thanks Hocoino! Of course, since I'm the thread creator, you can never be right (just kidding ).

Skills: I think by recomending both Attack and WarMachines you are obligated to take Flaming Arrows. If you do this you won't be able to use archery as you recomended. A triple balista shot that ignores targets defense, and adds fire damage is buff. It can be a high teir creature killer. However even with just that, it still does not make full use of the posibilites of the balista. Imbdue Balista + Implosion with 3 shots... (btw, I'm theorycrafting here, can anybody tell me if the implosion triggers on all three shots)

I've used that strategy myself...but it's a horrid point pit...meaning you probably won't have an uber ballista until late game. As for the triple Implosion it does trigger three times (and likewise drains your mana at the same rate ).

Also I haven't seen anybody here mention the use of Logistics.. I don't know why... Logistics to me is an essential skill. Sure it would be nice to give my hero battle skills, but without logistics I might never be able to reach him with the advantage. I'll be run in circles. This however might be a topic best discussed in a complete article.

It's pretty good...but the problem is that in the actual battle Logistics doesn't help. I use it on occasion, but if I can help it, I prefer not to.

A nice little tactic I have found is to attach slow to your imbdue arrow, then rain of arrows and you have a mini-mass slow. If I also have flaming arrows then I can restructure my Favored enemy list omiting the level 7 creature (because I'll be using my balista constantly on it due to the ignore defense feature) the imbuded balista will also slow his teir 7 creature and now you have 4 of his 7 creatures slowed. Taking your next turn to mass haste, you'll have a huge initive advantage.

Hmm...sounds good...never tried it before.

Thanks for the feedback Hocoino!

[Elvin]

It does work but after that multi slow hit you'll have to imbue again with something else to avoid wasting your mana. I just prefer imbue icebolt with freezing if you go down that road, you may get the icicle Or fireball because ranger attack is rather low.

-50% defence + luck + avenger =



And logistics if of paramount importance plus you can get it early. Why would you not choose it? Silent stalker you may have reservations but the skill helps a lot with creeping as you can clear your area much faster and as you are might you can keep killing without returning to town.

[winterfate]

Why would you not choose it?

I let my limited Heroic experiences dictate this choice (and I do choose it on occasion, depends on the map). At that difficulty, your days are numbered since your resources are reduced drastically and the computer won't have a problem getting to level 7 units in under 2 weeks. Every level up counts, so I try to go for the battle skills first. The uber computer tends to go after you, so you won't have to worry about catching up to him.

[Elvin]

That's not for catching up to the AI It's because it lets you creep faster.

[winterfate]

In that case, you have a point!

[Elvin]

Being a might faction you don't are not restricted by mana so you can go on until you meet too powerful enemies After all in the beginning you need only luck&logistics though I'll pick light, attack or warmachines if I'm offered.

Anyway the focus is on luck/logistics or warmachines if I get it early, light is not needed early and from attack I only need archery, later tactics. Leadership, enlightenment are less crucial initially as well imo. An exception is Vinrael as levelling enlightenment early has its perks

[Destro23]

I'd have to disagree with you on Attack.. After playing a game today with sylvan the way I'd say is definately elven fury.. +2 dmg to each of your units is HUGE HUGE HUGE...

[Elvin]

It is, battle frenzy+nature's wrath is slightly better than archery for the master hunters not even taking into account sprites and wardancers. I'll still take archery when I don't want to focus on attack or I am to find the opponent fast.

[winterfate]

@Destro23: That's a valid point you make there.

Like Elvin says though, taking archery is better when I don't want to focus into attack.

[Hocoino]

The Rain of Arrows + Slow combo I refered to is really only usefull once. After that I wouldn't bother doing a different Imbue Arrow, I'd just start using my mass buff spells.


As for the -50% defense imbue arrow that will require you to take Destructive Magic... It's not a horrible choice, but as a might faction I would find it so much better to use Defense, Attack, or Leadership instead of Destructive magic. And if you suggested replacing Light with Destructive I think that would be a HUGE mistake, because late game resurection is massivly important. For that matter your mass buff spells are game changing.